City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

buff MM!! Seriously!!

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-17 18:17 in Masterminds

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
Now, listen, okay, sure, maybe YOU can have this amazingly epic build with your Ninja build, and completely wipe the floor with anything you come across and have a fun time, but not all of us have the capacity to be quite as good as that. Sure, maybe that IS on us, but, consider for a moment:
Actually, I don't have an "amazingly epic build", I built him on drops and about 10-15 mil (with a few IOs, the pet set uniques, gifted from my far more marketeering friends). No huge defense bonuses, just moderate recharge, with Hasten nowhere near perma (just have it to counteract recharge debuffs, pretty much). For powers, I skipped all personal attacks from my primary, took leadership, CJ, Super Jump, and Hasten, and only took 3 SHARK powers. I simply use tactic, and a good set of binds to adjust my pets on the fly.

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I agree, MM's as a whole might not need a buff, but if Bots/FF or, as you said, Bots/Traps are so OP, then, yes, please, nerf them. But make my Mercs MM, my favorite, first-ever made MM, capable of soloing just as good as other builds, because right now I have trouble soloing anything past +0 x5 because everything is suddenly so resistant to Lethal damage.
I wouldn't say that Bots/Traps is really OP, as there are times that it isn't quite as awesome, and I would much rather see Ninjas and Mercs brought up to the level of Demons and Thugs. I definitely am not calling for a nerf on MMs, just that MMs as a whole don't need a buff, simply the lower-performing sets.

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The Mastermind AV is not an easy class to play, unless you chose the obvious Bots/FF/Traps or Thugs/Traps as people like to claim, and then you're golden. But I've yet to run into any specific archtype with such a massively underpowered setup like my Mercs/Pain has, the damage output is horrible and the heals just arn't enough to keep up with the damage my mercs receive.
Having never played Mercs myself, I can't add much advice here, but I can agree that MMs are quite easily the most difficult AT to play to maximum effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
You really have no idea what a bot/traps can do do you? Or heck, any MM combination for that matter. Ill/rad is good for single targets. 3 targets max. Anything more, then the decoys can't hold aggro on it, and the player dies. A bot/traps, really has no limits.

Here, let me know you. The first video was done on SOs. No IOs at all.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7923834396178#

Quality isn't the best, but hey, there you have it.

Lets see, there is this -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7941000579334# a bot/traps MM, and a grav/nrg dominator duo-ing the ITF back in i12 (or was it 13).. (shortly after it hit live)

Mind/fire has all its power in confuse, without form of 'control' it really can't solo a single thing. And it doesn't get any experience for its 'solo-ing' as it uses confused mobs to do all the heavy lifting.

DM/Shield is just laughable at best. While it packs a decent amount of SINGLE TARGET damage, it can't keep up on pure AoE damage that a bot/traps (or again, any MM combo) can deal. Look over those scrapper threads again, my bot/traps can out damage any DM/shield (at least in i19)

Now, ill/cold is in the same boat ill/rad is, awesome single target DPS, but as this game is based on AoE carnage, single target doesn't do you a whole lot of good.
I couldn't load up the second video, but I'll say what I saw in the first was pretty impressive. To be completely honest though, and if we're using Shivans, I could do it with a Tanker, Scrapper, or /Traps Defender. Does that mean Masterminds, themselves, are overpowered? I mean, Traps does perform very well, but do you think you could've had this same degree of success if you were using a different secondary?

My main argument against Masterminds being overpowered is this--could you still manage if the AV, etc. was smart enough to attack its real threat(I.E, the force field generator, mortar, or poison trap?) Maybe you could, but as you noted, I have little experience with a MM using /Traps. This is a legitimate question. I've played with other sets(Bots/FF, Ninjas/TA) and none of this seems possible. Maybe I'm just bad though.

 

Posted

Masterminds, as a whole, don't need a buff.

The pets should at least be on par with Lore pets, though.

If you summon your pets and they're dead before you even manage to cast an upgrade on them, you're not "doing it wrong", there's something wrong with the fight or the pets that needs to be changed.

 

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
You can stop with the snide 'Pay Attention' stuff, because I'm trying to be at least a little civil here.
I'm sorry you were offended, but I can't consider such a flippant misrepresentation of my argument as anything remotely "civil."

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
And, lest we forget, AoE's DO deal double-damage to MM's, because while the MM himself may not be receiving all of that damage himself, his pets are. And a MM without pets is a very squishy target indeed, so, yes, AoE attacks are much, much worse for a MM than say your world-endngly powerful Brute or Tank or whatever it is you play.
This is completely incorrect if you manage your pets. Why are your pets in range of AoEs hitting you?

I have fought AVs and Giant Monsters with large AoEs. The AoEs themselves are likely enough to one shot my minions, but my bots are never in range of these AoEs.

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Originally Posted by GI Justice View Post
My main argument against Masterminds being overpowered is this--could you still manage if the AV, etc. was smart enough to attack its real threat(I.E, the force field generator, mortar, or poison trap?)
This argument is invalid because you're ignoring the tactics required to do this. What would happen if, in a team, the AV focused his efforts on the blasters and debuffing defenders (his real threat) before dealing with the tank? The same thing that would happen to a mastermind. Does that in any way diminish the accomplishments of a good team?

The mastermind is a team. The mastermind himself is at the same time a tank and a defender. His henchmen are the scrappers/blasters, and in some cases controllers.

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Originally Posted by Warlocc View Post
If you summon your pets and they're dead before you even manage to cast an upgrade on them, you're not "doing it wrong", there's something wrong with the fight or the pets that needs to be changed.
Why are you summoning these pets in range of things that are going to kill them? The summon doesn't have to happen at your feet, there is some range to it. Don't let the henchmen come running right to you either. And if the fight really is that bad, withdraw, re-summon, re-enter.

These aren't very high level tactics or even intelligent plays that require practice. No, it's not as easy as a brute who can toggle up and go, but you knew that going in. Masterminds are not "button mash until the enemy is dead." A Mastermind is a high performance vehicle; you can do incredible things if you do it correctly, but the controls are touchy and if you don't know what you're doing, you'll get yourself killed.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

I guess this post might sound a bit incendiary, but oh well.

MM's are not as great as you've read. I said it. They are great levelling characters, they make ok/middling budget farmers.

They are, at best, mediocre team additions. At worst, they are a flat out liability. This is less of a concern while levelling in mission teams; teams tend to kill everything in sight. Then the game switches gears at 50 (really in all TFs even prior to 50). Mobility becomes a primary concern. MM's are completely lacking in any functional mobility. That limits them to their secondary, but all of those secondaries are shared by ATs that do NOT have the same crippling mechanics in thier primaries.

Pet AI and draggro is well documented. Even with go-to commands sets like ninjas and zombies tend to gleefully stroll away while you're hammering your go-to command. By the way: what was the rest of the team doing while you were herding your allies? 9 times out of 10 they were killing, you were dinking around.

But tankerminds! It's a cute trick as long as ***no other teammate is running a taunt aura***.

But damage/support! Yeah, containing controllers.... for real.

But buffs and pets for real! MMMMhMMMM trade you for a crab.

But pets and debuffs! See above comment, replace crab with ill/rad.

But I soloed XX YY. Yeap, so did everyone else. I feel like there is a screen of an SS/Fire brute that soloed the ITF >shrug< anyone seriously going to imply they farm better than an SS/Fire? Or could even peel aggro off of him?

The AT needs looking at, point blank. IO's have minimal effect on MM primaries, which is a unique choke point for MM's. The Debuff options in the new incarnate slots are a solid start, especially coupled with the solo application of the buff options. But that's all it is, a start.




 

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
Mobility becomes a primary concern. MM's are completely lacking in any functional mobility. That limits them to their secondary, but all of those secondaries are shared by ATs that do NOT have the same crippling mechanics in thier primaries.
This is a wild accusation with no real evidence to back it up.

What makes them lack mobility? Currently, the Sabotage stage of the Lambda trial is the most mobility requiring challenge in the game. With my MM, I am able to keep up with the team and my henchmen are contributing to team damage.

You seem to be forgetting the leash which teleports henchmen to their summoner when the distance between becomes to large. I have used this, along with passive following (it seems to decrease henchmen threat generation) to keep my henchmen mobile and alive.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
But tankerminds! It's a cute trick as long as ***no other teammate is running a taunt aura***.
Tankerminding is primarily used to keep aggro off of the henchmen. If another teammate has aggro controlled, why would you need to tankermind?

Despite this, my MM still functions as a tank on the incarnate trials. I have pulled Nightstar to the courts. I soak Marauder's irresistible damage because, to a MM, it is resistible.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
But damage/support! Yeah, containing controllers.... for real.
Could you show me your math that proves controllers that can manage to contain their enemies can out damage a mastermind?

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
But buffs and pets for real! MMMMhMMMM trade you for a crab.
Personal preference, not a valid argument. Good try, though.

Valid argument: A mastermind has permanent, controllable henchmen which are superior to those of a Crab, while offering a larger variety of team buffs and/or debuffs.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
But pets and debuffs! See above comment, replace crab with ill/rad.
See above comment about personal preference.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
But I soloed XX YY. Yeap, so did everyone else. I feel like there is a screen of an SS/Fire brute that soloed the ITF >shrug< anyone seriously going to imply they farm better than an SS/Fire? Or could even peel aggro off of him?
Are you seriously going to imply that the SS/Fire provides more team buffs than a Mastermind?

No one said MMs farm better than SS/Fire brutes, much as you wouldn't say the SS/Fire buffs a team better than the MM. They do different things.

The fact that the Mastermind can farm comparatively as fast in addition to being able to buff an entire team is more than counterpoint to your lack of argument here.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Again, Dechs, this is assuming you know -exactly- what you are doing - consider for a moment not all of us who love playing MM's are doing so with full-bound keypads, dedicated binds and a build that we know exactly how it will behave. I barely understand how IO sets effect things, much less have a build I have half an idea what'll happen when in battle. I understand that, generally speaking, level 1 pets are slotted for 2-3 accuracy, 3 damage, and that formula repeats with minor variations for the 2 and 3 tier pets. But no amount of slotting is going to change the fact that my Mercs MM is vastly underpowered compared to most other archtypes, and, assuredly, a Bots/FF/Traps.

When I'm in a team as an MM, I rarely, if ever, feel I'm as useful as any other archtype out there. I don't heal as much as a Defender, I don't do enought controlling as a controller, and I don't dish out as much damage as a blaster or scrapper. I feel like I'm mediocre in all those things - at worst, with my Mercs MM, I feel like a slightly more damaging PBAoE damage following the team around with a PBAoE heal in effect. Mym ercs have ghastly poor damage compared to other archtypes, and I'm not doing enough healing to do much more than slap a band-aid on a gaping chest wound while we wait for the Defender's heal to recharge.

 

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
Again, Dechs, this is assuming you know -exactly- what you are doing - consider for a moment not all of us who love playing MM's are doing so with full-bound keypads, dedicated binds and a build that we know exactly how it will behave.
Masterminds as an AT are more difficult than the others. I'm not debating that. But you seem to believe that they should be compensated for that; for some reason, they should be even more powerful so that the people who don't want the difficulty can still excel with them. This is what I disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
I barely understand how IO sets effect things, much less have a build I have half an idea what'll happen when in battle.
You just have to understand that learning these things take time, practice, and effort. No one jumped into a fighter plane and turned the tide of a war in a month.

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
But no amount of slotting is going to change the fact that my Mercs MM is vastly underpowered compared to most other archtypes, and, assuredly, a Bots/FF/Traps.
Please do some math in an attempt to prove this, then we'll address it.

As it stands, I have a hard time believing something with the buffs/debuffs/heals of Pain Domination, 75% resistance to everything, and six expendable teammates doing the damage is "vastly underpowered compared to most other archetypes."

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
When I'm in a team as an MM, I rarely, if ever, feel I'm as useful as any other archtype out there. I don't heal as much as a Defender, I don't do enought controlling as a controller, and I don't dish out as much damage as a blaster or scrapper.
Scrappers don't survive as well as Tanks. Tanks don't do as much damage as Brutes. Corruptors don't buff/debuff/heal as well as defenders. Defenders don't do as much damage as Blasters. You know why? Because the ATs do different things.

If you want to be the best buff/debuff out there, roll a defender. If you want to deal a ton of damage, roll a blaster. If you want to be able to do it all, you roll the mastermind.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
This is a wild accusation with no real evidence to back it up.

What makes them lack mobility? Currently, the Sabotage stage of the Lambda trial is the most mobility requiring challenge in the game. With my MM, I am able to keep up with the team and my henchmen are contributing to team damage.

You seem to be forgetting the leash which teleports henchmen to their summoner when the distance between becomes to large. I have used this, along with passive following (it seems to decrease henchmen threat generation) to keep my henchmen mobile and alive.
Not a wild accusation. You can use go-to passive to hide your pets in a corner, or you can drag them along behind you. The TP doesn't kick in for quite a distance. Until it does, you have your army dragging the entire room behind you. Similar to "Tank stealth". Even if you and/or they don't die, the mobs WILL follow.

And lambda is one example, Cysts? Sybils? Generals? Rescues? Glowies?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Tankerminding is primarily used to keep aggro off of the henchmen. If another teammate has aggro controlled, why would you need to tankermind?

Despite this, my MM still functions as a tank on the incarnate trials. I have pulled Nightstar to the courts. I soak Marauder's irresistible damage because, to a MM, it is resistible.
My point was that you DON'T need a tankermind. That's 1 valid playstyle eliminated.




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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Could you show me your math that proves controllers that can manage to contain their enemies can out damage a mastermind?
Wanna race my fire/kin?

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Personal preference, not a valid argument. Good try, though.

Valid argument: A mastermind has permanent, controllable henchmen which are superior to those of a Crab, while offering a larger variety of team buffs and/or debuffs.
My point was a crab has an entire primary and secondary, not completely reliant on the pets. And they can summon just as many pets. And pour on more AoE damage. Controlled and aimed intelligently AoE damage at that.

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Are you seriously going to imply that the SS/Fire provides more team buffs than a Mastermind?

No one said MMs farm better than SS/Fire brutes, much as you wouldn't say the SS/Fire buffs a team better than the MM. They do different things.

The fact that the Mastermind can farm comparatively as fast in addition to being able to buff an entire team is more than counterpoint to your lack of argument here.
Nope, wouldn't dare. I will dare to say that CoH has too many masters of multiple trades to leave much room for a Jack of all, master of not one single one. You seem to be replying to what you consider anecdotal or opinionated evidence in kind.

I honestly keep hoping that they do look at MM's. The backslapping on the boards doesn't change the fact that they are under represented in level 50 content.




 

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
Not a wild accusation. You can use go-to passive to hide your pets in a corner, or you can drag them along behind you. The TP doesn't kick in for quite a distance. Until it does, you have your army dragging the entire room behind you. Similar to "Tank stealth". Even if you and/or they don't die, the mobs WILL follow.

And lambda is one example, Cysts? Sybils? Generals? Rescues? Glowies?
Sybils, Cysts, Generals, and Rescues are all the same. I aggro everything along the way, big deal. It eventually leashes or I kill it.

Glowies are even easier. Stealth to the objective, then summon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
My point was that you DON'T need a tankermind. That's 1 valid playstyle eliminated.
This doesn't make any kind of sense. I already said even on trials with multiple other tanks, I'm performing my tankermind style to the benefit of the team.

Guess what? We don't need tanks. We don't need defenders, controllers, or any specific AT. We don't need anything but damage, as 8 blasters have completed an MoSTF long before i19. I guess every valid playstyle has been eliminated, following your logic.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
Wanna race my fire/kin?
I'd love to. The target is a Quarry in the Hive. Either that or Carnies on +2/x8. Your choice.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
My point was a crab has an entire primary and secondary, not completely reliant on the pets. And they can summon just as many pets. And pour on more AoE damage. Controlled and aimed intelligently AoE damage at that.
That's nice. Until you do some math, you've yet to prove that one is superior to the other. At this point it's still personal preference.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
I honestly keep hoping that they do look at MM's. The backslapping on the boards doesn't change the fact that they are under represented in level 50 content.
I contend that they are simply underrepresented. They've always been one of the least popular ATs, and that's largely due to the difficulty of play. Until I see some math to prove otherwise, your lack of arguments have no weight and can hope to accomplish nothing.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Math's are hard. If my opinion is just that, and baseless, I at least can be cozy sharing my opinion with the vast majority of active players. From this angle doing twice as much work to achieve the same goal is a poor option.

>Edit<

You can have the last word. But, did you imply that your MM does more damage than a fire/kin (containment controller) because you can farm carnies?




 

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
The backslapping on the boards doesn't change the fact that they are under represented in level 50 content.
A few days ago in a different thread I was debating with another person as to whether the incarnate content favored melee characters unfairly. Their argument was that melee characters were overrepresented in incarnate content.

I'm going to give you the same response I gave them. Representation alone is not sufficient reason to say something is balanced or unbalanced. It is simply a measure of how much the player base enjoys playing it.

To use an example from another MMO. Characters there are split into the trinity: Tank, Healer, DPS. DPSer's are heavily overrepresented, Tanks are slightly overrepresented, Healers are underrepresented. Does that mean that DPSer's are overpowered? No, the game is balanced around needing all three types it's simply that DPSers are easier and more fun to play so more people play them.

The same is true here. Masterminds are underrepresented because they are more difficult to play than other ATs. Now an argument that the devs should attempt to fix that definitely has validity but that is different from simply buffing MMs.

 

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
this is assuming you know -exactly- what you are doing - consider for a moment not all of us who love playing MM's are doing so with full-bound keypads, dedicated binds and a build that we know exactly how it will behave.
so, wait, let me get this straight. you love playing MMs, but you don't know how, so you want the devs to buff them, to make up for your lack of skill?

if you love playing MMs so much, why don't you take the time to bind your keypad, learn what IOs do, and figure out the tactics required to keep your MM alive?

and if you won't take the time to do that, why are you playing the most challenging AT in the game?

 

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Why are you summoning these pets in range of things that are going to kill them? The summon doesn't have to happen at your feet, there is some range to it. Don't let the henchmen come running right to you either. And if the fight really is that bad, withdraw, re-summon, re-enter.

These aren't very high level tactics or even intelligent plays that require practice. No, it's not as easy as a brute who can toggle up and go, but you knew that going in. Masterminds are not "button mash until the enemy is dead." A Mastermind is a high performance vehicle; you can do incredible things if you do it correctly, but the controls are touchy and if you don't know what you're doing, you'll get yourself killed.
Pets summon in defensive follow by default. Which means, particularly in trials, the moment they're summoned, they're going to rush forward and attack the last thing that sneezed at you. Now, you have what, three options?

1. Smack your follow bind/macro a billion times and hope it works (we all know pet AI and response time, particularly on melee pets, is terrible) before they get close enough to get AOE one shot killed.

2. Spam 'passive/stay' (and hope it takes) and lose BG mode, which can often have you face planted faster than a Blaster.

3. Completely take yourself out of combat, wait for any and all debuffs to fade, then summon, then go back into combat.
Thing is, that whole time you were standing around with your finger up your nose, you could have been contributing in some fashion (we do have secondaries, after all). Which leads me into the "trial rewards based on contribution nonsense" and while it's not truly leeching, it's not exactly carrying your weight, either.

The point is, all three completely shut down our primary powerset for a while, or worse- get us killed. If our secondaries were on par with other secondaries, this wouldn't be so bad. But they're not.

Really, to say that MM's are overpowered in all content all the time, I think you've either never really played MMs, or you've only ever played one min/maxed MM build.

 

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Originally Posted by Daystar_NA View Post
so, wait, let me get this straight. you love playing MMs, but you don't know how, so you want the devs to buff them, to make up for your lack of skill?

if you love playing MMs so much, why don't you take the time to bind your keypad, learn what IOs do, and figure out the tactics required to keep your MM alive?

and if you won't take the time to do that, why are you playing the most challenging AT in the game?
No, what I'm saying is that the MM should not be so technical that only those who are capable of min/maxing the build and doing EXACTLY what needs to be done at EXACTLY the right time should be the only ones enjoying this class. There needs to be a margin for error, and if only you people who know exactly how to play this class with no errors and with full knowledge of how to utilize every little nuance of the class can play it properly, then yes, it needs a buff. This isn't some arcade fighting game, Masterminds do not need that perfect 50-combo strike to be effective, and I really, really don't want to pull out a calculator to enjoy the game I have here.

 

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
Math's are hard. If my opinion is just that, and baseless, I at least can be cozy sharing my opinion with the vast majority of active players. From this angle doing twice as much work to achieve the same goal is a poor option.
Fair enough, but you won't accomplish anything with that. If you're going to make a claim and want it taken seriously, you need to bring proof to the table that your claim is valid. You've yet to do so.

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Originally Posted by prev1 View Post
You can have the last word. But, did you imply that your MM does more damage than a fire/kin (containment controller) because you can farm carnies?
I certainly implied that I'd win the race in the scenarios given. Your snide comment was met with an equal.

You wouldn't prove anything even if you could "win a race" against my bots/traps. Your initial claim is that MMs deal less damage than controllers with containment. How do grav/emp, earth/FF or ice/thermal controllers do with containment?

Some controller combinations may out damage some MM combinations in some specific situations.

Your claim, as implied, is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Warlocc View Post
Pets summon in defensive follow by default. Which means, particularly in trials, the moment they're summoned, they're going to rush forward and attack the last thing that sneezed at you. Now, you have what, three options?
You have three options, but none of the ones you've listed.

1. Summon them somewhere away from you and use a goto command immediately so they stay there.

2. Move to a clear spot and summon them at your feet, then tap your follow/defensive macro there. The follow/defensive command has an inherent delay in it which is to allow the henchmen to return to you before engaging any enemies. For about three full seconds, they won't do anything. Tap again to extend this.

3. Remove yourself from combat, but don't wait for aggro to shed and debuffs to wear off. Tap your follow/defensive, use your travel power and get behind an obstacle a few yards away. Summon your new pets, buff them up, and waltz back into the battle. Yeah, some aggro may be following you, but there's plenty of time because you have a travel power to move ten times their speed and you can go over the obstacle they have to go around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlocc View Post
Really, to say that MM's are overpowered in all content all the time, I think you've either never really played MMs, or you've only ever played one min/maxed MM build.
Show me where I said MMs are overpowered in all content all the time. Good luck finding it. I said Bots/Traps is OP, and I'm not speaking for the others.

I believe MMs as a whole are pretty well balanced with a few outliers on the OP side.

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Originally Posted by Agent View Post
No, what I'm saying is that the MM should not be so technical that only those who are capable of min/maxing the build and doing EXACTLY what needs to be done at EXACTLY the right time should be the only ones enjoying this class.
That is absolutely not the case. MMs don't really even benefit from IOs, so it's not a matter of a perfect build. You don't need to be so precise, there's plenty of room for error. If I can handle the trials with +3 enemies to the point I was soloing spawns, you have room for error on the standard difficulty stuff.

It's just some basic stuff you aren't doing. Keep your henchmen out of AoE range. Don't let them take aggro. Leverage your bodyguard mode.

Look, it may not be easy, but it's not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be. If you want easy, go roll a brute or a tank. If you want to have to think a little bit while you play, then get a mastermind.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

I was not going to wade in but Dech's suggestions caught my eye.
Mostly because they don't work

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post

1. Summon them somewhere away from you and use a goto command immediately so they stay there.
Pets can, do and will ignore the Go-to command, if the command is not far enough away from where they are they simply ignore it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
2. Move to a clear spot and summon them at your feet, then tap your follow/defensive macro there. The follow/defensive command has an inherent delay in it which is to allow the henchmen to return to you before engaging any enemies. For about three full seconds, they won't do anything. Tap again to extend this.
If I have been attacked in the last ten seconds (IE when debuffs are applied) this does not work they spawn in and instantly attack the last thing that hit me. This only works prior to engaging in combat near hostile mob (IE invisible summoning)

Worse it out right does not work with some pets (Robots and Mercs are worst about this due to the number of ranged attacks they have) and will happy blast away even as they follow you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
3. Remove yourself from combat, but don't wait for aggro to shed and debuffs to wear off. Tap your follow/defensive, use your travel power and get behind an obstacle a few yards away. Summon your new pets, buff them up, and waltz back into the battle. Yeah, some aggro may be following you, but there's plenty of time because you have a travel power to move ten times their speed and you can go over the obstacle they have to go around.
This works against non DoT attacks, if you've been hit with any kind of dot damage and a debuff (IE most of the Praetorian content) re-summoned pets will charge up to 60 meters in order to engage whatever just hit you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Show me where I said MMs are overpowered in all content all the time. Good luck finding it. I said Bots/Traps is OP, and I'm not speaking for the others.
Really? Over powered? Because they can handle +4/8 content? All of my Brutes can handle that, my Corrupter can handle that, my scrappers (As long as the enemy types mesh well) can easily handle that, hell even my stalkers and controllers can handle that (Some have issues with mob types)

I'd say Bots/Traps is right at the level everyone else reached ten issues ago with the introduction of IO's


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I believe MMs as a whole are pretty well balanced with a few outliers on the OP side.
I'd disagree with you but then I have (By popular vote) the least useful power in the game /Poison's Poison Trap. Taking as a whole MM's are fine but there are specific groups (Mercs/Ninja's/Zombies) that are not near the same level that Thugs/Demons are or yes Bots.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
It's just some basic stuff you aren't doing. Keep your henchmen out of AoE range. Don't let them take aggro. Leverage your bodyguard mode.
If you had really run Trial content with an MM I should think you know you spend the trial hitting the stay command every ten seconds because they can and will "forget" to stay out of range no matter what you do
Also "stay out of AoE range" is not an option for Zombies or Ninjas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Look, it may not be easy, but it's not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be. If you want easy, go roll a brute or a tank. If you want to have to think a little bit while you play, then get a mastermind.
Again this at odds with your OP comment

Jorrus 50 MercPoison Mastermind / Samuel Geary 50 Warshade/Triform
Relenia 50 DB/Will Scrapper / Jonas Geary 50 Cold/Storm Controller

'They don't call it a "Free Fire Zone" because it's filled with kittens and butterflies"-Obsidius

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
I was not going to wade in but Dech's suggestions caught my eye.
Mostly because they don't work
Then I don't know what to tell you because it's what I do and it's how my henchmen react. Exactly as described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
Really? Over powered? Because they can handle +4/8 content?
No, it's absurd to discuss balance with regards to IOs. Everything is overpowered with IOs, and that's kind of the point of the game.

They're over powered because, on SOs, they can handle things meant for teams, specifically x8 missions and AVs. Please feel free to reference the rest of the argument where I made this claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
I'd disagree with you but then I have (By popular vote) the least useful power in the game /Poison's Poison Trap. Taking as a whole MM's are fine but there are specific groups (Mercs/Ninja's/Zombies) that are not near the same level that Thugs/Demons are or yes Bots.
I'm not going to argue that a few powers don't need a look at. Poison Trap from /poison is pretty absurd, as well as Serum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
If you had really run Trial content with an MM I should think you know you spend the trial hitting the stay command every ten seconds because they can and will "forget" to stay out of range no matter what you do
Again, I don't know what to tell you. I started the iTrials with Lambda and the only level shift I had was the Alpha. I never use the stay command. I use goto and follow defensive. I'm able to keep up with the team in the sabotage stage and I'm able to keep my bots out of AoE ranges.

Is it as simple as playing my Dark Armor tank that wades in and mashes 1, 2, 3, 4 repeat? No. Is it impossible? Not hardly. Do my henchmen die? Yes. Do they die too often that I'm not contributing? Hell no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
Also "stay out of AoE range" is not an option for Zombies or Ninjas
I believe it is. It's harder to accomplish, but it is an option. Taunt their targets and stand out of range of your henchmen. Don't let them run into melee next to the tanks and brutes; have them attack targets on the fringe.

Again, this isn't button mashing, but it's no impossible task.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
Again this at odds with your OP comment
No it's not. Masterminds are not an exact science, they're just more difficult than any other AT (except maybe Warshade). I've never claimed any different.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
I'd disagree with you but then I have (By popular vote) the least useful power in the game /Poison's Poison Trap. Taking as a whole MM's are fine but there are specific groups (Mercs/Ninja's/Zombies) that are not near the same level that Thugs/Demons are or yes Bots.

Zombies? Really? People honestly think Zombies underperform? Hahahahahaha!!!


Mercs could do with a decent buff-pass. Ninjas with a more minor one and ditto with Poison. That's about it.

 

Posted

Dechs what MM pets are you running through BAF? Lamda? As noted I'm primary a Merc's MM (But I do have Thugs, Robots at 50 plus Ninja's/Zombies in the 40s with Demons the only set I've not touched yet)

My experience (And now that I've gotten a new video card I might FRAPS this) is that every twenty seconds in my Mercenaries attack chain is they run out of ranged attacks and run in to either brawl or gun stroke Nightstar or Seige.

But Zombies and Ninja's seriously? Both sets have their Tier 1/Tier 2 pets who are almost pure melee, as in they need to be in Melee in order to use 90% of their attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs
No, it's absurd to discuss balance with regards to IOs. Everything is overpowered with IOs, and that's kind of the point of the game.

They're over powered because, on SOs, they can handle things meant for teams, specifically x8 missions and AVs. Please feel free to reference the rest of the argument where I made this claim.
Then I have misread your point and accept that you are correct on this issue, Robots/Traps does outpreform other sets with SO's only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs
Again, I don't know what to tell you. I started the iTrials with Lambda and the only level shift I had was the Alpha. I never use the stay command. I use goto and follow defensive. I'm able to keep up with the team in the sabotage stage and I'm able to keep my bots out of AoE ranges.
Okay that answers the above question since your playing with Robots, do you have other MM sets to have because you do have the ranged friendliest set out there (Which should be Mercs but I digress) and Robots are better behaved since they don't have the issue of running out of all other attacks and being forced to either wait or use brawl, by default they have enough attacks it's not an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs
I believe it is. It's harder to accomplish, but it is an option. Taunt their targets and stand out of range of your henchmen. Don't let them run into melee next to the tanks and brutes; have them attack targets on the fringe.
It's not an option in the 50's content and trial content in particular the number of one shot PBAoE's means melee pets die and die often. In my Ninja's/Zombies sets I make sure to take hasten due to pet death being much more common than Mercs or Robots/Thugs where I either tend to lose 1 at a time or all of them due to an ambush.

Jorrus 50 MercPoison Mastermind / Samuel Geary 50 Warshade/Triform
Relenia 50 DB/Will Scrapper / Jonas Geary 50 Cold/Storm Controller

'They don't call it a "Free Fire Zone" because it's filled with kittens and butterflies"-Obsidius

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
My experience (And now that I've gotten a new video card I might FRAPS this) is that every twenty seconds in my Mercenaries attack chain is they run out of ranged attacks and run in to either brawl or gun stroke Nightstar or Seige.
...
and Robots are better behaved since they don't have the issue of running out of all other attacks and being forced to either wait or use brawl, by default they have enough attacks it's not an issue.
My bots exhibit this behavior too. What's most odd is that the Protectors will even run into melee, despite not even having a [Brawl] attack. I concede that this is a flaw in the AI, but it's not crippling. Tap follow/defensive. This "resets" the henchmen and they return to you and pretend like they have nothing aggro'd for a few seconds. This will be the case even if you are currently under fire. To bypass the wait time, issue a goto command immediately after your defensive/follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
But Zombies and Ninja's seriously? Both sets have their Tier 1/Tier 2 pets who are almost pure melee, as in they need to be in Melee in order to use 90% of their attacks.
...
It's not an option in the 50's content and trial content in particular the number of one shot PBAoE's means melee pets die and die often. In my Ninja's/Zombies sets I make sure to take hasten due to pet death being much more common than Mercs or Robots/Thugs where I either tend to lose 1 at a time or all of them due to an ambush.
You must have misread my statement. Yes, there are PBAoEs that can quickly decimate a henchman army. I clearly said to keep them out of PBAoE range. Attack things on the edge of the enemy group. Don't let your henchmen stand beside a tank or a brute that has Armageddon aimed at his face.

The Mastermind is all about henchmen management. Once you learn that, you stop having all these problems.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

...Okay again please explain how exactly I keep my melee pets out of range of the AV with the massive PBAoE he fires off of one every twelve second considering they must be in... melee range which also happens to be greater than PBAoE range?

Jorrus 50 MercPoison Mastermind / Samuel Geary 50 Warshade/Triform
Relenia 50 DB/Will Scrapper / Jonas Geary 50 Cold/Storm Controller

'They don't call it a "Free Fire Zone" because it's filled with kittens and butterflies"-Obsidius

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptAdder View Post
...Okay again please explain how exactly I keep my melee pets out of range of the AV with the massive PBAoE he fires off of one every twelve second considering they must be in... melee range which also happens to be greater than PBAoE range?
You mean the one where he gives you plenty of warning so that you might be able to hit follow/defensive and get your henchmen out of range?

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
You mean the one where he gives you plenty of warning so that you might be able to hit follow/defensive and get your henchmen out of range?
No the footstomp one where it takes 1.5 seconds to animate and hits for over a thousand damage, Seige and Maurader both do it. Nightstar has a 1.0 targeted AoE energy attack that does likewise. Yes things like Nova fist and the "It's GOOOD!" attack as I call it that the giant robots and Seige uses could be dodged since they take three seconds but the AoE's that kill are not exactly large warning attacks.

Jorrus 50 MercPoison Mastermind / Samuel Geary 50 Warshade/Triform
Relenia 50 DB/Will Scrapper / Jonas Geary 50 Cold/Storm Controller

'They don't call it a "Free Fire Zone" because it's filled with kittens and butterflies"-Obsidius