First week DOOOOM: a look back
By
Arkyaeon,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 08:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I agree with everything in this post.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Good recap, Sardan. I myself love the trials, grind or no grind.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Yup, withing 4 days of the release, Union BAF teams are regularly pulling runs where no prisoners escape and achieveing Master Of runs on a semi-regularly basis and Ammon has provided a guide on the forums.
The BAF MO is merely strategy, the Lambda MO looks to be about brute forcing it and I honestly don't know how you're going to pull off a no acids, no grenades run until people are fully Rare'd out.
I do agree with pretty much everything you said though.
I don't like it so no one should like it and the devs are idiots for making it
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The trick between "too hard" and "just follow orders and it is easy" is having around four incarnate +2's with some interesting interface and judgment powers. Destinies* flat break the difficulty, as well.
So, if you have, say, four "partial" incarnates on a raid of sixteen or twenty-four, it really makes the edge difference. If you try the same trials with only 50+1 (alphas), it is as hard as those posts illustrated.
*I strongly suspect Barrier will get a nerf, soon.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
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This, very accurate recap of the iTrials imho.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I agree with everything in this post.
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I think they should have allowed iXP to be earned as long as you have an Incarnate power equipped|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Incarnate grind?
This one I now strongly sympathize with. It really gets old fast having to run the same 2 tasks repeatedly. Still I don't blame the devs. I'd rather have i20 now than wait for more Trials to be created/tested. Too grindy? Take a break and do something else. This is a problem that will solve itself after they release a few more Incarnate Trials. |
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Originally Posted by Sardan
I'm going to follow my own advice and not do any Incarnate trials for a while.
 After two long days, they are indeed feeling pretty grindy. |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Sixteen will equal one Incarnate Tau. But... would that make it an Incarnate Turn?|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Maybe next we'll have Incarnate Slices, and 8 slices will equal one Incarnate Pie...
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On the subject of a Tau, does that mean, secretly, it is 300 incarnate numbers hiding in the background!?
Queue "nerds.jpg" image, here.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
Quote:
Well summarized.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
I wasn't able to test i20, I only read about it sporadically on the forums. So I knew about the 2 new trials, and I was concerned by the high failure rate reported. I also read just enough about all the new Incarnate salvage that it made my head spin.
When i20 went live, the amount of doom-crying was high:
I predicted that within a couple of months people would have strategies figured out and the presence of people on leagues who already had lots of beyond-Alpha slots unlocked would make the tasks easier. I was wrong. The transition from "OMG this is too hard!" to "If you listen to simple directions this isn't very hard" happened some time before I started playing on Saturday. So what I predicted would happen in a couple of months took less than a week. Not casual friendly? Many people have wrung their hands because part of CoH's appeal is being the casual-friendly MMO and they worried about end game raiding ruining that. While the Incarnate Trials are definitely harder than regular content, they are fast and can easily be done by a first-timer as long as he or she will follow some simple directions. I think that qualifies as a casual-friendly end game! I can't stress enough my gratitude to the devs that even though the Incarnate Trials are intended to be hard, they're designed to be sub-hour encounters. If these were multi-hour encounters, players like me would only be able to participate rarely. Yes, the Incarnate system IS designed to be a time sink. Welcome to MMOs. If you only do a couple of Incarnate Trials a week it will take you a long time to unlock and equip the various slots. But that's by design; just as you're not intended to get to level 50 in a weekend, you're not intended to blaze through the Incarnate system in a few days either. Incarnate currency overload? While I understand Posi's reasoning for the new Incarnate currency I strongly dislike it. This is one area that I think might inhibit vets from returning to the game. Just try explaining to someone how to create set IOs and the benefits they give, then the Alpha slot and shards, then the other Incarnate slots and threads. Bleah.  Incarnate grind? This one I now strongly sympathize with. It really gets old fast having to run the same 2 tasks repeatedly. Still I don't blame the devs. I'd rather have i20 now than wait for more Trials to be created/tested. Too grindy? Take a break and do something else. This is a problem that will solve itself after they release a few more Incarnate Trials. I'm going to follow my own advice and not do any Incarnate trials for a while. After two long days, they are indeed feeling pretty grindy. |
Also- what confuses me most about the new incarnate salvage is the randomness of it. Alpha salvage is more-or-less tied to a specific task force (and uncommons are built from a predictable common plus shards... pretty straightforward).
I haven't caught on to any such pattern for this next generation of salvage options. Their name doesn't give a rationale to how to get it (as it would in some other games) nor does the variety encourage interplayer trade (they're bind-on-pickup). It adds some additional work for the player to get to his goal (ARG! that's not the uncommon I needed) and might encourage some people to dabble in alternate builds (might as well make THAT... since I can...) but that's at a bit of a cost to user-friendliness.
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It's so you will run moar trials until you get the pieces you need. That's the only reason I can think of.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Well summarized.
Also- what confuses me most about the new incarnate salvage is the randomness of it. Alpha salvage is more-or-less tied to a specific task force (and uncommons are built from a predictable common plus shards... pretty straightforward). |
There is no reason whatsoever to have so many different types of salvage when they all award from the same things. If i20 had been released with more trials, all of which had different rewards, there would be a point, since it would encourage people to run all of them. As it is, people are already deciding they will skip Lambda and just farm the BAF for their components.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Too tough?
My only comment on this was that it was too tough for the LFG to ever have a hope of working as intended. Pre-formed leagues seem to be the preferred method now.
I figured things would get better over time and they did, faster than I thought. Not being able to log into the beta servers I could tell from the start that the "simple directions" beyond "follow me and keep up" were going to be insufficient and I think they are but only until you've run it once or twice then they start making sense.
Not casual friendly?
I did fall for this. I thought it would take me forever because I wouldn't run them often enough. I've been happily proved wrong. They are short and fun enough that I don't mind running 2 in a row. I ended up playing 7 trials over 4 days and my dark tank now has an uncommon Void Judgement and a rare Reactive Interface which is beyond my wildest dreams for the first weekend.
I may actually try to do these on some of my other 50's.
Incarnate currency overload?
The Threads are dumb... the rest is no worse than the invention salvage's 3 tiers x 3 levels (I'm betting on another round of salvage in the next set of slots). I don't consider the new stuff a "new currency" but rather an addition to the relatively new Incarnate salvage category.
Incarnate grind?
It is a grind but fun and short enough that if you do a couple a week you'll make pretty good progress and not get burned out. And that's fast enough for me.
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Ditto. I can hardly wait to finish Maria Jenkin's arc with my new powers though! |
I'm going to follow my own advice and not do any Incarnate trials for a while. After two long days, they are indeed feeling pretty grindy.
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Would anyone mind posting an explanation of his reasoning? Or just posting a link to where I can find it? I seem to have missed that while reading up on ALL of the other stuff |
Originally Posted by Sardan
Incarnate currency overload?
While I understand Posi's reasoning for the new Incarnate currency I strongly dislike it. |
I agree entirely with what you said Sardan. Here's hoping for a couple more trials in the near future.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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I should've linked to it. It's from his MMO Designer blog. Here's the entry I was referring to.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Would anyone mind posting an explanation of his reasoning? Or just posting a link to where I can find it? I seem to have missed that big while reading up on ALL of the other stuff
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I reckon it's going to be one or the other, and not both. With a No Grenade run, you're not going to want to have to deal with reinforcements as well. With a No Acid run, you're not going to want to have to spend extra time on whittling down Marauder's health.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
The BAF MO is merely strategy, the Lambda MO looks to be about brute forcing it and I honestly don't know how you're going to pull off a no acids, no grenades run until people are fully Rare'd out.
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...For now. Keep in mind that Issue 20 just came out. Everything feels grindy after the first few times you do it and you're doing it ten more anyway. Once you get your most important character(s) kitted out and things go back to "normal" (or more likely, once Issue 21 hits and everyone's doing the new hotness of whatever that will be), then the Incarnate trials will feel much, much less grindy.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Incarnate grind?
This one I now strongly sympathize with. It really gets old fast having to run the same 2 tasks repeatedly. Still I don't blame the devs. I'd rather have i20 now than wait for more Trials to be created/tested. Too grindy? Take a break and do something else. This is a problem that will solve itself after they release a few more Incarnate Trials. I'm going to follow my own advice and not do any Incarnate trials for a while. After two long days, they are indeed feeling pretty grindy. |
Chew on this. A couple of months ago, everyone was doing Weekly Strike Target task/strike forces over and over to get their Alpha slot kitted out. Some people did dozens of them, and there was much complaining that that was grindy. People are still doing them, but an order of magnitude or two less frequently now. I do one now and then just to take a break from what everyone else is doing, which would have sounded silly a couple of months ago.
Give it another month, and it will correct itself; it always does.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
It's just as fun as I expected it to be.
No grind problems: Each character I have plays differently and takes a different approach to the trials, so the feeling of repetition isn't there for me.
Difficulty: I think the BAF 9cu should be looked at with the min - simi min people. MoLambda is brute force, with people being +3/+2 and the powers that come with that, it is still really intense, yet fun and very doable!
New salvage? Cool, just read and look just like you did with the invention system!
Problem: Servers don't seem to be able to handle the system. Zone crashes constantly and trials abruptly ending makes for some very unhappy people -- discouraged too.
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
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Ditto |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I agree with everything in this post.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't like it so no one should like it and the devs are idiots for making it
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Basically it's not confirmed from Posi himself but everyone reckons that the reason for the change in salvage was to stop people who had horded shards/notices/favours from blitzing through the system on day 1 and coming out with very rares.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
Would anyone mind posting an explanation of his reasoning? Or just posting a link to where I can find it? I seem to have missed that while reading up on ALL of the other stuff
I agree entirely with what you said Sardan. Here's hoping for a couple more trials in the near future. |
It didn't actually work though since it didn't really slow people down
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Thanks. It makes sense now. And I think they balanced it to the best of their ability. They unfortunately have to cater to both the "I wantz it NAO!" crowd, but also make it difficult enough that not everyone gets it immediately. And that's what we've seen: if someone wanted the powers bad enough, he/she could run trials back-to-back-to-back on any and all characters and end up with Very Rares within the week (as quite a few have done). For the rest, it is clear that it is going to take a bit longer, as it should.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
I should've linked to it. It's from his MMO Designer blog. Here's the entry I was referring to.
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Unfortunately, this also makes me think they will release another set of salvage/conversions for the next couple powers. *sigh* I don't know how much more my brain can handle! :P
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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We did a no grenade and no acid run in the same run. Destiny and Judgement (which we had plenty) are key to the acid portion as we never had a real issue with the ambushes. The problem ended up taking him down within the time limit perma-enraged. We ended up with Marauder 40% when time ran out and we all pretty much agreed that if everyone (or most) had lore pets (and probably the higher tiered pets) we could have finished it rather easily.|
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
I reckon it's going to be one or the other, and not both. With a No Grenade run, you're not going to want to have to deal with reinforcements as well. With a No Acid run, you're not going to want to have to spend extra time on whittling down Marauder's health.
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Edit- Oh and I agree with Sardan's post almost 100%. Great summary.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
The 9cu reinforcement cleanup crew... I'm thinking more and more that the rewards (thread rewards/iXP) should be shared throughout a league (reduce the iXP). As it stands, the group that takes care of the adds from the reinforcement point really gets a lion's share of iXP and threadcounts.
Lambda, too, you have people rushing into the courtyard to grab the groups there; or skipping the turrents for the nugget inside the facility.
Both types of rush are the result of people realizing the maximum meat of the grind; not from any (major) benefit to the trials themselves.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
Quote:
I'm almost betting on it.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
Unfortunately, this also makes me think they will release another set of salvage/conversions for the next couple powers. *sigh* I don't know how much more my brain can handle! :P
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However, making that bet, will result in Pos playing sneaky poker, knowing that we all will make that assumption, and...
...I feel like that scene in the Princess Bride.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
Quote:
While I have many issues with Sam's ideas, I don't think the sarcasm expressed above is anywhere near his real opinion on the matter.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't like it so no one should like it and the devs are idiots for making it
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Basically it's not confirmed from Posi himself but everyone reckons that the reason for the change in salvage was to stop people who had horded shards/notices/favours from blitzing through the system on day 1 and coming out with very rares.
It didn't actually work though since it didn't really slow people down |
Maybe it wasn't just to ward off the hoarders. The devs seem to like solutions that cover multiple issues and hoarding might just be one but not the entire reason.
And yes, if the new currency is solely to hamper the hoarders, then probably should expect new currency with the next 2 trials since the current 2 makes it very easy to amass a stockpile of threads long before they put out the new stuff.
I wasn't able to test i20, I only read about it sporadically on the forums. So I knew about the 2 new trials, and I was concerned by the high failure rate reported. I also read just enough about all the new Incarnate salvage that it made my head spin.
When i20 went live, the amount of doom-crying was high:
- The new Incarnate Trials are way too tough compared to the rest of CoH content.
- The time commitment required by an endgame system is unreasonable and counter to CoH's casual-friendly past.
- The new Incarnate salvage is confusing and unnecessary.
- Having only 2 Trials means having to repeat/grind the same content far too much.
Too tough?I predicted that within a couple of months people would have strategies figured out and the presence of people on leagues who already had lots of beyond-Alpha slots unlocked would make the tasks easier. I was wrong. The transition from "OMG this is too hard!" to "If you listen to simple directions this isn't very hard" happened some time before I started playing on Saturday. So what I predicted would happen in a couple of months took less than a week.
Not casual friendly?
Many people have wrung their hands because part of CoH's appeal is being the casual-friendly MMO and they worried about end game raiding ruining that. While the Incarnate Trials are definitely harder than regular content, they are fast and can easily be done by a first-timer as long as he or she will follow some simple directions. I think that qualifies as a casual-friendly end game!
I can't stress enough my gratitude to the devs that even though the Incarnate Trials are intended to be hard, they're designed to be sub-hour encounters. If these were multi-hour encounters, players like me would only be able to participate rarely.
Yes, the Incarnate system IS designed to be a time sink. Welcome to MMOs. If you only do a couple of Incarnate Trials a week it will take you a long time to unlock and equip the various slots. But that's by design; just as you're not intended to get to level 50 in a weekend, you're not intended to blaze through the Incarnate system in a few days either.
Incarnate currency overload?
While I understand Posi's reasoning for the new Incarnate currency I strongly dislike it. This is one area that I think might inhibit vets from returning to the game. Just try explaining to someone how to create set IOs and the benefits they give, then the Alpha slot and shards, then the other Incarnate slots and threads. Bleah.
Incarnate grind?
This one I now strongly sympathize with. It really gets old fast having to run the same 2 tasks repeatedly. Still I don't blame the devs. I'd rather have i20 now than wait for more Trials to be created/tested. Too grindy? Take a break and do something else. This is a problem that will solve itself after they release a few more Incarnate Trials.
I'm going to follow my own advice and not do any Incarnate trials for a while.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.