What is the advantage of a scrapper over a brute?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-04-04 10:44 in Scrappers
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As someone who has only rolled Brutes when I couldn't make the combo as a Scrapper (my first and now deleted brute, DM/FIRE...my first and only 50 brute, Elec/Elec, so before the port obviously...and now I just have the SS/FA Brute), I can think of a few things to roll a Scrapper over a Brute for.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Aw good grief, are we REALLY having this discussion again?
Deep in our hearts, we all know brutes are better, just based on the numbers. I'm a scrapper player myself, but it's not because the archetype is better. I like scrappers. Even after the 'nerf' to fury, brutes do equal or better damage than a scrapper (fire melee? super strength?) AND ARE TOUGHER. I rolled up a claw/inv brute to make identical builds, brute vs scrapper, just to test out the theory, and quit before fifty. Because it was quite obvious even on SO's. Brutes do the same or better damage, and are quite a lot tougher, and the gap is going to get quite a lot bigger as the next four Incarnate Slots start unfolding. (Good lord, energy armor is gonna be SICK.) HOWEVER. The Devs have addressed this just about as much as they seem willing. Months ago. The subject seems closed. If you are the sort who lives and dies by the numbers, roll the brute, every time. If you like a little style, well, then the scrapper has it all the way.  Aww, yeah, scrapper strut..... |
Last I knew, Scrappers indeed to better at damage when it came to some sets...Kinetic Melee, Dark Melee, Dual Blades, and Claws (at least in the ST department, I believe Brutes win with better AOE damage).
But if you just mean that Brutes come close enough to the damage mark that it really doesn't matter, then yeah, Brutes win!
That said, Scrappers don't have the need for Fury building
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I disagree |
Originally Posted by mauk2
Aw good grief, are we REALLY having this discussion again?
Deep in our hearts, we all know brutes are better, just based on the numbers. I'm a scrapper player myself, but it's not because the archetype is better. I like scrappers. Even after the 'nerf' to fury, brutes do equal or better damage than a scrapper (fire melee? super strength?) AND ARE TOUGHER. I rolled up a claw/inv brute to make identical builds, brute vs scrapper, just to test out the theory, and quit before fifty. Because it was quite obvious even on SO's. Brutes do the same or better damage, and are quite a lot tougher, and the gap is going to get quite a lot bigger as the next four Incarnate Slots start unfolding. (Good lord, energy armor is gonna be SICK.) HOWEVER. The Devs have addressed this just about as much as they seem willing. Months ago. The subject seems closed. If you are the sort who lives and dies by the numbers, roll the brute, every time. If you like a little style, well, then the scrapper has it all the way. Aww, yeah, scrapper strut..... |
As I understand it, shield charge is better on a scrapper, as is single target damage output on a DM/SD. Saturated AAO + SD grants my scrapper a (perma) 240 percent damage buff, which is 1 big red off effective damage cap. When I see a brute break 320 ST dps on a pylon I'll retract my statement and level one
Til then I'll be enjoying my "teehee, MG crit that +2 av for 3k" moments.
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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad
I disagree
As I understand it, shield charge is better on a scrapper, as is single target damage output on a DM/SD. Saturated AAO + SD grants my scrapper a (perma) 240 percent damage buff, which is 1 big red off effective damage cap. When I see a brute break 320 ST dps on a pylon I'll retract my statement and level one Til then I'll be enjoying my "teehee, MG crit that +2 av for 3k" moments. |
(shrug)
Let's see your scrapper reach 3000 hitpoints.
(waits)
Sure, there are edge cases where some scrappers do slightly better ST dps than some brutes. That must be why every farmer in the game is running a ss/fire scrapper, right?
Oh, wait....
Fire and footstomp baby, that's where all the cool kids are these days.
And by 'cool' I mean all the number-herding wannabes.
The REAL cool folks are stylin' it up on scrappers. Awww, yeah. Crits are teh sexay.
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When Bill Z Bubba was playing, wasn't he saying that the Brute version of Claws was superior, because of the ways it was changed when proliferated over? Feed that back into the Scrapper Claws and they'd pull out ahead again. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
Even after the 'nerf' to fury, brutes do equal or better damage than a scrapper (fire melee? super strength?) AND ARE TOUGHER. I rolled up a claw/inv brute to make identical builds, brute vs scrapper, just to test out the theory, and quit before fifty. Because it was quite obvious even on SO's.
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This.
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
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Scrappers have the following play advantages over Brutes:
-Higher base damage allows them to get more out of damage enhancements, including the Musculature Alpha Slot, which is basically useless for brutes.
-No need to build up fury means that you can unload your biggest attacks right at the start for damage purposes, and don't have to worry about low fury when fighting one extremely strong enemy. This is one of the reasons that Scrappers make better Solo AV killers than Brutes.
-Scrappers tend to, on average, have slightly higher Single Target damage.
-Scrappers DO NOT HAVE TAUNT AURAS IN THEIR ATTACKS. This means that they don't have to worry about attracting piles and piles of enemies like Brutes and Tankers do. Tankers need that attention to tank, and Brutes need it for Fury, but Scrappers neither have or need such a large taunt component to their attacks.
-Scrappers have Spines and Brutes don't. Spines is a strong AoE set, and brutes drool over the idea of Spines with Fury. Go ahead. Make a Spines/Fire Scrapper right now and level it to 50. We'll wait...See? Isn't that ridiculous!? Good lord!
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Interestingly, of the sets brutes and scrappers share directly, the only one where brutes arguably come out on top would be fire melee. The same fire melee that is popularly known for its great single target damage and fairly garbage aoe. Whether that counts as a feather depends on your cap's existing plumage.
Every other shared set either relies on permanent BU-level buffs, favoring the scrapper, or pseudopets, favoring the scrapper. I would argue that even claws' damage buff for brutes isn't incredibly impressive because spin, its most damaging power, suffers a nearly five second recharge penalty in comparison to the scrapper version.
Overall, then, there are some edge case brutes that do passable damage, but the real bonus they get is in being surly chunks of beef that generate tanker style aggro without the drawback of being as fearsome as a soggy baby. Therefore, your choices of damage level are the following: of the three melee ATs, you can opt for The Full Scrappy, The Close-If-You-Squint Brute, or The Saddest Tanker. That fully describes all melee AT options available to you, you're welcome.
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Totally ignored the Stalkers there.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Interestingly, of the sets brutes and scrappers share directly, the only one where brutes arguably come out on top would be fire melee. The same fire melee that is popularly known for its great single target damage and fairly garbage aoe. Whether that counts as a feather depends on your cap's existing plumage.
Every other shared set either relies on permanent BU-level buffs, favoring the scrapper, or pseudopets, favoring the scrapper. I would argue that even claws' damage buff for brutes isn't incredibly impressive because spin, its most damaging power, suffers a nearly five second recharge penalty in comparison to the scrapper version. Overall, then, there are some edge case brutes that do passable damage, but the real bonus they get is in being surly chunks of beef that generate tanker style aggro without the drawback of being as fearsome as a soggy baby. Therefore, your choices of damage level are the following: of the three melee ATs, you can opt for The Full Scrappy, The Close-If-You-Squint Brute, or The Saddest Tanker. That fully describes all melee AT options available to you, you're welcome. |
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I find irony in these two points put together, because do you want to know what happens when you use Burn on a Spines/Fire scrapper? Stuff scatters to the four winds. For that matter, even normal Spines attacks tend to make stuff scatter on a Spines/Fire, the lack of taunt aura and constant DoT makes mobs run a lot.|
-Scrappers DO NOT HAVE TAUNT AURAS IN THEIR ATTACKS. This means that they don't have to worry about attracting piles and piles of enemies like Brutes and Tankers do. Tankers need that attention to tank, and Brutes need it for Fury, but Scrappers neither have or need such a large taunt component to their attacks. -Scrappers have Spines and Brutes don't. Spines is a strong AoE set, and brutes drool over the idea of Spines with Fury. Go ahead. Make a Spines/Fire Scrapper right now and level it to 50. We'll wait...See? Isn't that ridiculous!? Good lord! |
It is indeed so ridiculous two of my friends deleted theirs.
Meanwhile, brutes can enjoy higher AoE damage, thanks to stuff not running away, on a SS/Fire while also having twice the ST damage of that spines/fire scrapper.
The top ST and AoE builds for scrappers are shielders, and they have the strongest taunt aura available to scrappers. If you'd remove the taunt component from AaO, you can bet it'd be harder to keep those 10 foes in range as well as efficient AOEing. Not impossible, but harder.
Aggro control is damage. While on paper a 100 damage 10 targets AOE will always do 1000 damage, ingame a 100 damage AOE that hits 8 targets because 2 ran out of range is 20% less powerful than a 100 damage AOE that hits 10 targets because aggro control kept them standing still.
Even if you're one of those folks who stand behind a tanker all the time, having to wait for someone else to aggro stuff as opposed to jumping in first and initiating the fight means you will have some overkill, wasted damage.
I'd like scrappers to get more taunt options for secondaries lacking that - optional ideally, for people who dislike taunt auras (WHY?!?! No, don't answer that, I just can't help myself
). Speaking strictly about damage and secondaries, there's really no performance reason to play Fire, Elec, Dark Armor or Super Reflexes on a scrapper rather than a brute as it is.
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Yeah, perverse as it may sound, I actually sometimes pine for a taunt aura on my Blaster. Scatter is probably my biggest beef with Blasters at the high end; they theoretically do the most damage in the game, but in practice that damage is too situation-limited, for a whole host of reasons -- especially when one understands what Blasters give up for that presumed offensive advantage, relative to other ATs.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I find irony in these two points put together, because do you want to know what happens when you use Burn on a Spines/Fire scrapper? Stuff scatters to the four winds. For that matter, even normal Spines attacks tend to make stuff scatter on a Spines/Fire, the lack of taunt aura and constant DoT makes mobs run a lot.
It is indeed so ridiculous two of my friends deleted theirs. |
Anyway, Blasters aren't the subject of the thread, so apologies. More to the point of the topic, the comparison between Scrapper and Brute comes down to powerset selection. Since the Fury nerf, on-paper damage comparisons almost universally favor Scrappers -- assuming all else is equal. All else isn't always equal, though.
Given the increased emphasis on high-end, large-group content, I'd have to give the edge to the sturdier option (Brute) by default. When your task is to stand in melee range of spectacularly hard-hitting foes, that extra 15% of RES cap (and the extra HP) really can make a significant difference. Brutes are perhaps the most buffable characters in the game, so any content that skews towards massive buffage will tend to favor them.
But hey, there's room to argue both sides.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Yeah, I worry that Brutes may be better with the Incarnate abilities and for the Incarnate content. I do wish I had Brute hit points and resistance caps. And in practice, while I LIKE that Scrappers go from 0-60 in 0.1 seconds, when I do play a Brute, I almost never have problems with Fury generation because I do tend to have a go-go-go play style.
So... why do I like Scrappers better? Seriously, I don't know why, but I do.
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Funny, as a primarily Brute player I feel like the Incarnate content is somewhat nudging Brutes out of being capable of the main aggro role in favor of Tankers. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I worry that Brutes may be better with the Incarnate abilities and for the Incarnate content. I do wish I had Brute hit points and resistance caps. And in practice, while I LIKE that Scrappers go from 0-60 in 0.1 seconds, when I do play a Brute, I almost never have problems with Fury generation because I do tend to have a go-go-go play style.
So... why do I like Scrappers better? Seriously, I don't know why, but I do. |
The upping of To Hit numbers (which tankers can handle better buildwise than either Scrappers or Brutes), the higher damage spikes, damage that forces you to rely on HP alone (higher Tanker base resistance, higher Tanker base HP, higher Tanker HP cap) While these favor the Brute over the Scrapper in a minor capacity, they favor the Tanker much more.
It could also just be an overreaction to "new stuff" and that melee players will just have to come to terms with the fact that for incarnate content, we will need to rely more and more on support ATs for their buffs and debuffs.
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Tankers are supposed to be better at the "main aggro role," after all. Funny how things change from Issue to Issue, what with all the (fairly) recent talk about how Brutes render Tankers obsolete. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Funny, as a primarily Brute player I feel like the Incarnate content is somewhat nudging Brutes out of being capable of the main aggro role in favor of Tankers.
The upping of To Hit numbers (which tankers can handle better buildwise than either Scrappers or Brutes), the higher damage spikes, damage that forces you to rely on HP alone (higher Tanker base resistance, higher Tanker base HP, higher Tanker HP cap) While these favor the Brute over the Scrapper in a minor capacity, they favor the Tanker much more. |
Then again, in at least one Trial, the devs have explicitly designed a mechanic that actively discourages any one character from holding aggro for too long. (And between the Apex blue patches o' death and the BAF Turrets, it's clear that the devs don't want us to place too much confidence in pure damage mitigation.)Still, the defensive disparity between ideally buffed Brute and ideally buffed Scrapper is much larger than the defensive disparity between buffed Tanker and buffed Brute. The spread of buffs available on your team or in your League will vary, of course, but Destiny alone should make a pretty big difference once people start getting their slots filled out.
(Destiny's also got one of the Trial-specific level shifts attached to it, so people are likely to push for that sooner than Interface and Judgment.)
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| It could also just be an overreaction to "new stuff" and that melee players will just have to come to terms with the fact that for incarnate content, we will need to rely more and more on support ATs for their buffs and debuffs. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Well let's see I'd say yes it has along with Why would anyone roll a Tank now that they can make a Brute or Why roll a Controller or Defender when we can roll Corruptors or Dominators...
They all have their unique advantages and disadvantages so all are still quite viable in game. Ultimately the answer is "Because I want to be a Scrapper not a Brute!"
People have bad mouthed and dissed Dual Pistols almost since it came out but I took a DP/Ice Blaster to 50 level and she is now one of my "Honored Dozen". The 12 characters I am currently playing through incarnate content. Does my Fire/Fire Blaster do more damage? HE$$ YES but I love playing Icee .. the animations look great and I keep her constantly using chemical rounds so she debuffs anything she hits which helps everyone on the team.
The huge discussion when GR was still in Beta was why create a Tank when we can do more damage with a Brute? Well first of all my SD/SS tank does a good bit of damage and doesn't need to wait for Fury to build to gain it and second.... And I KNOW I'll get arguments here .. Tanks still do a better job of aggro control than a Brute. Now let's REALLY start an arguement (LOL) I did an ITF last week with no Tank or Brute and we rocked! Okay it was a little annoying since Romulus tends to run around like a sissy trying to avoid attacks with no one aggroing him but our team of Support characters and damage dealers (Blasters, Scrapper etc) did just fine. LET the flame war begin!
As mentioned in another post a scrapper is at 100% damage as soon as it is in range as opposed to a Brute which needs to build fury. Now let's put that to practical use.. you are on a Tin Mage TF and going for the Dodger badge. You have 30 seconds to defeat Director 11 before his invisible minons start laying mines. Either At will work fine but given the choice do you want to play a Scrapper that will be dishing out full damage instantly or a Brute that uses 5-10 of those 30 seconds building fury before reaching full damage output? [please keep in mind these are just off the top of my head figures I never sued a stop watch to determine how long it took a brute to hit full fury while battling Dircetor 11] Oh an PLEASE actually READ the underlined text before you feel the need to quote me and start tearing my post to shreds because you are a numbers freak and HAVE actually wasted time determining how long it take a brute to do so! 
Can we tell I have had this sort of thing happen before? hehe
Hey its a game with more than a dozen options for the type of AT you want to play and a ton of options on powers you can use after you make the first decision. WHY limit yourself to one just because it SEEMS like THE BEST. To illustrate my point.. week one of the new WST .. dozens of tanks, scrappers, blasters, and brutes all standing around in IP desperately searching for ANY support toons but more specifically actually broadcasting.. "We need anyone that has heals!" AWWWW did we suddenly discover that the majority of the TANK/BRUTE community can't stand toe to toe with Recluse and after all the badmouth a while back now we all desperately want a EMP Defender to heal and fort our tank so we can take down the towers? LOL
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Hidden in the snark is one of the legitimate reasons for choosing scrappers over brutes: their powersets don't completely overlap. Scrappers get Broadsword and Katana, while Brutes do not. This means Scrappers get Parry/DA, and Brutes don't. Brutes get Superstrength, Scrappers don't. This means Brutes get Rage, and Scrappers don't.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Sure, there are edge cases where some scrappers do slightly better ST dps than some brutes. That must be why every farmer in the game is running a ss/fire scrapper, right?
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So: if you want to play Broadsword, Katana, Spines, Martial Arts, or Regeneration, you have to roll a Scrapper. If you want to play Energy Melee, Super Strength, Battle Ax, Stone Melee, War Mace, Energy Aura, or Stone Armor, you have to roll a Brute (if you're choosing between a Scrapper and a Brute).
I tend to pick powersets first then archetype, so often choice of powerset decides the archetype.
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I haven't leveled a brute 1-20 since any of the changes so I wouldn't know. When I did solo my Stone/wp there just seemed to be waiting periods for it to come together. I honestly can't imagine how one solos a character to 20 in an afternoon. It took me about 6 hours on teams to get a guy to 20 and there really was hardly any downtime.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
I find it the complete opposite. All your attacks are slotted with two damage SOs 21 levels early as soon as you throw two punches. Once you get going, especially with inherent stamina, you can get to the 140% bonus damage of 70% fury. That's four damage SOs slotted in your powers within moments of stepping off the chopper... and the mobs aren't scaled for that at all.
Combined with something like Stone Melee and a group of three minions goes down in three hits and an auto-brawl or two. I can level a brute to 20 solo in an afternoon without hesitation. Scrappers I pause at 6. Then at 10. Then 14. Then 18. Then 22... and THEN they're fun for me. |
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
At least Regen has Ice Armor and Force Field to keep it company at the bottom of the barrel. Both of those sets need attention just as bad as Regen. Ice Armor has the worst mitigation out of all the Tanker sets, and the gap gets worse when comparing IO set builds.
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As I recall, with double-stacking follow-up a claws scrapper does more damage then a claws brute does with the current fury rules.... and adding more global damage tips the scale further toward the scrapper.
Now... talking about the level 1-20 game... no question.. brutes are the kings of doing that... fury at low levels when nobody has full enhancements is crazy powerful.
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Very true and proved to my great disappointment on my tricked-out Claws/SR brute running FU-Focus-Slash
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
As I recall, with double-stacking follow-up a claws scrapper does more damage then a claws brute does with the current fury rules.... and adding more global damage tips the scale further toward the scrapper.
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Since Brutes are hardier, shouldn't Scrappers do more damage?
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Very true and proved to my great disappointment
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EDIT: Since Scrappers are hardier, shouldn't Stalkers do more damage? (sorry, couldn't resist)|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Since Brutes are hardier, shouldn't Scrappers do more damage?
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Depends on how much more damage.
Depends on how much hardier.
The benefits Scrappers get out of AAO & the significantly better damage they get using SC* for example, far, far outstrip the extra 12% HP the Brute gets.
*This applies even moreso to LR, which is a sad version on a Brute.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Tankers are supposed to be better at the "main aggro role," after all. Funny how things change from Issue to Issue, what with all the (fairly) recent talk about how Brutes render Tankers obsolete.
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The Brute buffing advantage exists, but it is not some free gravy train. I almost never get +RES buffs or +HP buffs. (+DEF on the other hand is plentiful)
Mostly it only comes into play with specialist sets like Elec & FA, or when using T9s and/or insps - and now Barrier.
Useful? Absolutely, and often critical. Equivalent to a Tanker? Not even remotely.
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The differences between other ATs are more obvious I think. Scrappers and brutes both have damage/survivability sets with somewhat similar numbers.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Well let's see I'd say yes it has along with Why would anyone roll a Tank now that they can make a Brute or Why roll a Controller or Defender when we can roll Corruptors or Dominators...
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Hey its a game with more than a dozen options for the type of AT you want to play and a ton of options on powers you can use after you make the first decision. WHY limit yourself to one just because it SEEMS like THE BEST. To illustrate my point.. week one of the new WST .. dozens of tanks, scrappers, blasters, and brutes all standing around in IP desperately searching for ANY support toons but more specifically actually broadcasting.. "We need anyone that has heals!" AWWWW did we suddenly discover that the majority of the TANK/BRUTE community can't stand toe to toe with Recluse and after all the badmouth a while back now we all desperately want a EMP Defender to heal and fort our tank so we can take down the towers? LOL
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
I haven't leveled a brute 1-20 since any of the changes so I wouldn't know. When I did solo my Stone/wp there just seemed to be waiting periods for it to come together. I honestly can't imagine how one solos a character to 20 in an afternoon. It took me about 6 hours on teams to get a guy to 20 and there really was hardly any downtime.
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"Day" would have been a more honest description. Though you *can* whip through an AE mission set with a max level of 3 pretty quickly, taking advantage of the mobs low hit points compared to your beefed up newbie accuracy and access to cheaty level 8 powers under the new exemping system (one shot everything on the map, then use KO blow and one shot the end boss too).
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Brutes get more HP's. Scrappers get Critical Hits. Roll a Scrapper if you want Regeneration, Broadsword, or Katana which are too good for a Brute due to HP's and Parry (?), otherwise roll a Brute. Brutes also have higher resistance caps if they can reach them.
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I play both, and the disparity between the two sets was minimal before the fury change, and now the two at's are about as close in performance as they are going to get after the fury change.
As other posters have pointed out, the two at's do have slight differences, which will sometimes justify playing one or the other. Obviously there is playstyle, in that scrappers can go at whatever pace they want while brutes have to push the envelope more to achieve max performance. Some sets work better on each at vs the other at. Some sets are only available on one at (which is why I no longer feel full set proliferation is needed or warranted).
I'd say the two ats are working as designed. On average scrappers slightly outdamage brutes while brutes have a slight survivability edge. On teams, scrappers benefit more from damage buffs and brutes benefit more from survival buffs. From my experience, the two ats are very balanced. My favorite two characters are a FM/SD scrapper and a SS/WP brute, and both have their strengths and weaknesses, but overall are very even performance-wise.
One thing I've noticed in the incarnate trials, is the one at that was thought to be left behind, tanks, seem to be showing their survivability edge moreso than in the past content, though this might just be a misperception due to limited exposure to the new content so far, but that has been my impression.
Aw good grief, are we REALLY having this discussion again?
Deep in our hearts, we all know brutes are better, just based on the numbers.
I'm a scrapper player myself, but it's not because the archetype is better. I like scrappers.
Even after the 'nerf' to fury, brutes do equal or better damage than a scrapper (fire melee? super strength?) AND ARE TOUGHER. I rolled up a claw/inv brute to make identical builds, brute vs scrapper, just to test out the theory, and quit before fifty. Because it was quite obvious even on SO's.
Brutes do the same or better damage, and are quite a lot tougher, and the gap is going to get quite a lot bigger as the next four Incarnate Slots start unfolding. (Good lord, energy armor is gonna be SICK.)
HOWEVER.
The Devs have addressed this just about as much as they seem willing. Months ago. The subject seems closed.
If you are the sort who lives and dies by the numbers, roll the brute, every time.
If you like a little style, well, then the scrapper has it all the way.
Aww, yeah, scrapper strut.....