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You're taking a shot and turning it into an invasion force though - maybe you're taking the part of Emperor Cole, but I am not. A minor conflict or misunderstanding that might have been the grounds Cole used to invade Primal as a pre-emptive strike against a larger "invading force". The fact is we don't know - no one does except for whoever is holding the lore bible, and that might have been alluded to from the beginning.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Of course it is. The difference between a "border incident" and an invasion is whose PR lackey you're listening to. Which is moot in any case, because the actual issue is whether or not Tyrant had casus belli. Praetorian attacks on Primal were shown as pre-emptive strikes originally; if that's being changed it has a pretty serious effect on the storyline.
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The fact is we don't know, and you're stating things as fact that are clearly not fact, but extrapolation and then building your whole house of cards on it. Which is all well and good except if you're wrong and that first shot was something fairly minor on the grand scheme of things, and Praetoria's actual invasion is a pre-emptive strike against what they call a full scale invasion (that will never happen).
Just because you can't think of, or write, a situation where both "Praetoria's invasion was a "preemptive" strike" and "Primal fired the first shot" are true, doesn't mean that no one can.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Just because you can't think of, or write, a situation where both "Praetoria's invasion was a "preemptive" strike" and "Primal fired the first shot" are true, doesn't mean that no one can. |
It's easy enough to do.
Primal Earth is full of groups that 'know best' or at least think they do.
Heck it could even of been an accident on Portal Corps side of things, one they lie about to the player for reasons of PR. Perhaps Portal Corps did 'find' Preatoria first, using their probes. Perhaps said probe caused an accident, maybe crashed into a building or bus and killed several people. Maybe this has happened several times for Portal Corps, but Preatoria is the first incident where the other worlders can do something back.
That's how'd of written the first contact so that Primal 'fired first' but Cole intends to deal with the situation in a permanent fashion.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Maelstrom and his entire backstory didn't exist until GR. If "Primal fired first" is the new "Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia", then this is a retcon, the freaking end, no saving throw.| The fact is we don't know - no one does except for whoever is holding the lore bible, and that might have been alluded to from the beginning. |
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| Just because you can't think of, or write, a situation where both "Praetoria's invasion was a "preemptive" strike" and "Primal fired the first shot" are true, doesn't mean that no one can. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
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Right, because this is a comic book universe where the only sane, rational response to any sign of aggression from a dimension that has been nothing but friendly to you up until then is a Daffy Duck-esque "of course you realize, this means war." Other dimensions. They are all just amorphous entities where everyone is the same. Which is exactly how the Portal Corp missions present most of them, so who can blame the Rikti or Praetorians for thinking our dimension is just like the one where the secret exclusive hand-picked girls-only assassin cult makes up the entire population?
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Originally Posted by Venture
No one can because if Primal fired first, Praetoria has casus belli to retaliate. Which, may I point out, would be a repeat of the Rikti storyline, just one more shrimp to toss on the barbie.
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Hey look! It's Venture and he's got more complaints about a storyline! Shocking!
Venture, as we all know, history is written by the "winners." The "losers" story always gets fallen by the wayside. Where we learned something doesn't mean it's the factual truth. When the "losers" story is reintroduced, it opens people up to thinking about the same thing in more than one way. So, because YOU believe something doesn't make it to be the truth. Because others believe the opposite also doesn't make it the truth. This is where people form "opinions" on the same subject.
You can go ahead and continue to have your belief because in the end, the story has multiple endings because the devs made them that way. Just because they want you to believe something new each issue doesn't mean that their new story is the truth. It's part of "storytelling."
So just quit with the f'n ranting issue after issue about nonsence based on the beliefs you have from a fictional, expanding storyline within an online videogame that has no basis in reality. Do something productive rather than beat the same dead horse issue after issue.
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Arachnos Commander:
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I'm going to point out that according to Cole he already has casus belli. And just because Cole says he has it doesn't make it so.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Maelstrom and his entire backstory didn't exist until GR. If "Primal fired first" is the new "Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia", then this is a retcon, the freaking end, no saving throw.
No one can because if Primal fired first, Praetoria has casus belli to retaliate. Which, may I point out, would be a repeat of the Rikti storyline, just one more shrimp to toss on the barbie. |
I'm starting to think that you've already made up your mind on the subject and you either are being intentionally obtuse so you can continue to complain, or you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to analyzing plot lines.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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It might not necessarily be the same exact storyline. Nemesis wanted to start a war, for one, that might not have been the case this time.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Right, because this is a comic book universe where the only sane, rational response to any sign of aggression from a dimension that has been nothing but friendly to you up until then is a Daffy Duck-esque "of course you realize, this means war." Other dimensions. They are all just amorphous entities where everyone is the same. Which is exactly how the Portal Corp missions present most of them, so who can blame the Rikti or Praetorians for thinking our dimension is just like the one where the secret exclusive hand-picked girls-only assassin cult makes up the entire population?
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Furthermore "firing the first shot" can mean a lot of things. We're assuming that Cole took it for justification in the same way the Rikti did. Given what we know of Cole I have to assume that that's not the case. Look, Nemesis started the Rikti War with a no holds barred attack on the Rikti by members of a supposed Freedom Phalanx. I can only assume that these attacks were devastating.
The first shot fired here might not have been on a large scale at all. It might, indeed, have been a faction of a government doing covert work in other dimensions (which I can imagine would happen) and contact spiraled out of control when Cole's agents instigated a fight. All of which I can imagine happening.
Which is only one scenario where I can imagine both conditions being true. They might have done something similar to the Rikti war, and i do agree there, but it depends on how they do it, or even if its a big deal of a revelation - which it might not be, in the same way that Ultimatum's existence just isn't a big deal because it has very low impact on the storyline.
"Be a beacon?"
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I keep picturing something similar to a story I heard long ago, I think it was a King Arthur and Mordred, but don't quote me on it.
The 2 leaders agreed to meet and talk. Each brought a handful of knights as guards. Both had told their men not to draw their swords. As the 2 leaders were speaking, an adder (snake) crossed the in front of one of the knights. The Knight drew hi sword to kill it, the other side sees him draw the sword and they attack.
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Originally Posted by Commander
Hey look! It's Venture and he's got more complaints about a storyline! Shocking!
Venture, as we all know, history is written by the "winners." The "losers" story always gets fallen by the wayside. Where we learned something doesn't mean it's the factual truth. When the "losers" story is reintroduced, it opens people up to thinking about the same thing in more than one way. So, because YOU believe something doesn't make it to be the truth. Because others believe the opposite also doesn't make it the truth. This is where people form "opinions" on the same subject. You can go ahead and continue to have your belief because in the end, the story has multiple endings because the devs made them that way. Just because they want you to believe something new each issue doesn't mean that their new story is the truth. It's part of "storytelling." So just quit with the f'n ranting issue after issue about nonsence based on the beliefs you have from a fictional, expanding storyline within an online videogame that has no basis in reality. Do something productive rather than beat the same dead horse issue after issue. |
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That's an interesting take on the original Maria Jenkins arc |
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
The 2 leaders agreed to meet and talk.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Amazingly I've already explained why this approach is invalid in this very thread.
| You can go ahead and continue to have your belief because in the end, the story has multiple endings because the devs made them that way. Just because they want you to believe something new each issue doesn't mean that their new story is the truth. It's part of "storytelling." |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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It should be pointed out that just because this is a video game doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them to the standard of cohesive storytelling. I just hold that Venture's threshold for that standard is extremely low by any measure where the playerbase hasn't seen all the story threads, and doesn't know what's coming next except for the broad strokes. When you challenge him on it, he either supports his argument by setting up a false dichotomy, taking what you said to an extreme position and then knocking it down (which is called setting up a strawman, and that's something I rarely accuse someone of). |
Originally Posted by Commander
Hey look! It's Venture and he's got more complaints about a storyline! Shocking!
Venture, as we all know, history is written by the "winners." The "losers" story always gets fallen by the wayside. Where we learned something doesn't mean it's the factual truth. When the "losers" story is reintroduced, it opens people up to thinking about the same thing in more than one way. So, because YOU believe something doesn't make it to be the truth. Because others believe the opposite also doesn't make it the truth. This is where people form "opinions" on the same subject. You can go ahead and continue to have your belief because in the end, the story has multiple endings because the devs made them that way. Just because they want you to believe something new each issue doesn't mean that their new story is the truth. It's part of "storytelling." So just quit with the f'n ranting issue after issue about nonsence based on the beliefs you have from a fictional, expanding storyline within an online videogame that has no basis in reality. Do something productive rather than beat the same dead horse issue after issue. |
Home invasions and the Invasion of Normandy were both invasions, but it's a question of scale, and a home invasion does not, except under some very specific circumstances, justify return action on the scale of the Invasion of Normandy.
This isn't Shakespeare, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a complicated plot.
"Be a beacon?"
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You haven't though. You might do a very good job coming to conclusions but you do a terrible job actually explaining your position. You make statements of broad fact but never actually do the work in backing it up. You make broad statements about what everyone else should believe but put very little effort into actually explaining why I should agree with you. You refuse to countenance a counter argument by simply saying "it's semantics" when, by any reasonable standard, it's clearly not.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Amazingly I've already explained why this approach is invalid in this very thread.
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Support your position, or stop making broad statements of fact. Even when I agree with you I'm offended by your methods which seem to be continually dishonest.
EDIT: Also, as a side argument I'm beginning to despise anyone who dismisses an argument by simply saying "That's just semantics". Semantics is the study of meaning, and when we're having an argument meaning is very very important. We're on the internet and the only way we can communicate is with words, and as such words are very important - they're all we have to state our position. Facts exist, but without the ability to clearly and concisely express your position, they mean very little.
There is a vast difference between a full scale invasion and a minor non-military conflict, which was my entire point. That you dismiss it as "just semantics" reveals either that you don't understand what semantics is, or that you don't understand what I was trying to say (and since everyone else did, I can only assume that you didn't actually read what I said), or you understood and tried to purposefully bury it by demeaning it. Since you're beginning to build up a history of doing this with me, and others, I can only assume it's one of the latter two.
"Be a beacon?"
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I had thought it was directly brought up in the Family backgrounder, but all I found was this:|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The Nemesis/superdyne connection is at least a logical conclusion to draw, if it's not explicitly in the game in some random one-off mission in a level bracket that has enough arcs that nobody ever does random one-off missions anymore.
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Several of the families were rumored to be funded by some mysterious benefactor. He was some sort of wealthy industrialist (the stories say), who provided a significant investment of cash for them to run their rackets. In exchange, he gained influence over them and could potentially manipulate them for his ulterior motives. This benefactor may have also helped arm and equip the gangs, for they certainly had an easy time accessing military-grade munitions. |
However, more bits from the official launch-era timeline of Paragon City, 'Other Worlds Discovered':
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| Throughout the mid-eighties, Supes became a more and more popular drug, and despite the Regulators' best efforts, it continued to proliferate in the streets of Paragon City. There seemed to be no obvious, organized force behind the drug's distribution. Dealers were simply waking up and finding stashes of the serum in their homes. With no distribution and money trail to follow, it was impossible to get to the source of the problem. Paragon City became a very dark, gritty place to live. Despite the growing strength of the national economy, crime (both street and super villain) continued to rise. |
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It took a totally unexpected and even bizarre threat to reunite the city's heroes with their morals, a threat that, oddly enough, grew out of the Regulators' continued quest to find the mysterious force responsible for distributing Supes. Thanks to the mystical masters of the Midnight Squad, The Back Alley Brawler was finally able to track the drug back to its source, a secret laboratory beneath a skyscraper in downtown Paragon City. The Brawler burst in upon them, his famous fists flying about him like a whirlwind. When the dust cleared, he had a moment to catch his breath and figure out just what it was he'd captured. The facility turned out to be much more than a mere drug lab. It was a modern, high-tech, research facility. Not only were they manufacturing and distributing the drug, but they were also monitoring its effects on addicts. As this was a little out of his area of expertise, the Brawler placed a call to the Freedom Phalanx for some technical support. The scientists took the facility apart, freed the captive addicts and made some truly startling discoveries. The mysterious scientists, who resisted all attempts at interrogation, were not concerned so much with addicting America's youth as they were interested in seeing what effect their mind and body altering concoctions had upon the subjects. |
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You're right, it isn't. For one thing, the Rikti had much more of a reason to think of our dimension as a cohesive unit, since that's what they are.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
It might not necessarily be the same exact storyline. Nemesis wanted to start a war, for one, that might not have been the case this time.
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| Which is only one scenario where I can imagine both conditions being true. They might have done something similar to the Rikti war, and i do agree there, but it depends on how they do it, or even if its a big deal of a revelation - which it might not be, in the same way that Ultimatum's existence just isn't a big deal because it has very low impact on the storyline. |
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Quote:
Agreed. Right now we don't know which faction from Primal fired first. I was putting forward Ultimatum as a possibility, not as a fact. If that was unclear I apologize.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You're right, it isn't. For one thing, the Rikti had much more of a reason to think of our dimension as a cohesive unit, since that's what they are.
Ultimatum has a very low impact unless it turns out they fired first. Then they have a huge impact. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
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Quote:
Ahem. You meant Bugs Bunny-esque, I think?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Right, because this is a comic book universe where the only sane, rational response to any sign of aggression from a dimension that has been nothing but friendly to you up until then is a Daffy Duck-esque "of course you realize, this means war." Other dimensions. They are all just amorphous entities where everyone is the same. Which is exactly how the Portal Corp missions present most of them, so who can blame the Rikti or Praetorians for thinking our dimension is just like the one where the secret exclusive hand-picked girls-only assassin cult makes up the entire population?
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I'd hardly call "2 guys crossing dimensions for espionoge" the same thing as "the ruler of an ENTIRE WORLD sending his ENTIRE ARMY to CONQUER another dimension" if you're talking about "firing first".
It is completely within the realm of possibility that no one in portal corp or the hero community knew about these black-ops missions into Praetoria. It doesn't change the story, it just adds more facts to the matter.
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Um, so is anyone writing a transcript?
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Dithpicable!
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Originally Posted by Calibre
Ahem. You meant Bugs Bunny-esque, I think?
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Just watch the video |
Originally Posted by Cauda
Um, so is anyone writing a transcript?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's not a viable option for some people (it's also very time-consuming for the amount of information actually imparted).
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Just watch the video
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That exact scene is referenced in BABYLON 5's "A Late Delivery From Avalon"...|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
I keep picturing something similar to a story I heard long ago, I think it was a King Arthur and Mordred, but don't quote me on it.
The 2 leaders agreed to meet and talk. Each brought a handful of knights as guards. Both had told their men not to draw their swords. As the 2 leaders were speaking, an adder (snake) crossed the in front of one of the knights. The Knight drew hi sword to kill it, the other side sees him draw the sword and they attack. |
Arthur Pendragon, King of the Britons and wielder of Excalibur, arrives on Babylon 5. Shortly thereafter, he gets into a fight with some Down Below thugs, and is joined by G'Kar, who fights at his side, impressed by this chivalrous warrior fighting against impossible odds. As they drink together afterward (where Arthur dubs G'Kar "the Red Knight"), Arthur tells the story mentioned above, and how it led to the deaths of hundreds of knights, even though he believed that both sides genuinely wanted peace.
As it turns out, the man who believes himself to be King Arthur was actually David MacIntyre, the head gunnery officer on the Prometheus, the ship that made first contact with the Minbari. Thinking they were going to attack, the Prometheus' captain gave the order to fire, and so MacIntyre fired the shot that started the war with the Minbari, which led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and brought humanity to the edge of extinction... all due to a misunderstanding.
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THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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Utter genius.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Just watch the video
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Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"