So when did I cross the line?
By
Demobot,
Posted on: 2011-04-02 20:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Your idea of what "Justice" is has now become so warped that yu're all the way down with Arachnos for some reason, or your holding up the facade of pursuing "Justice" has been dropped entirely and you're just doing it because you feel wronged/ mad at the world somehow lots of reasons.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
So what your saying is, its up to the player really on what their intentions are?
Or you could just be making the funnies, I dunno I'm really messed up tonight. 
@Blaze Moon, Blaze Moon the 2nd
This is where something more interesting than my global and this sentence would be.
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This would work out so much better if redside wasn't mostly mercenary work more fitting of Rogue morality, and the Villain tip missions didn't involve a lot of mustache-twirling and wrecking stuff just because you can.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
Your idea of what "Justice" is has now become so warped that yu're all the way down with Arachnos for some reason, or your holding up the facade of pursuing "Justice" has been dropped entirely and you're just doing it because you feel wronged/ mad at the world somehow lots of reasons.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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But isn't that the whole point of being a Villian? Why be a mercenary when you can be a monster? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
a lot of mustache-twirling and wrecking stuff just because you can.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's an unfortunate result of taking the City of Heroes formula and applying it to villains. Since heroes are primarily reactive rather than proactive, the contact system makes sense. Contact X can say "Help! Bad guy is attacking an office!" and any good hero will rush to save the office. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
This would work out so much better if redside wasn't mostly mercenary work more fitting of Rogue morality, and the Villain tip missions didn't involve a lot of mustache-twirling and wrecking stuff just because you can.
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Villains should be proactive, hatching schemes and whatnot. Being proactive and taking orders from a schmuck on the street are kinda sorta mutually exclusive. Given the state of mission design circa 2004-5 it's not all that surprising that the end product was mainly a reskin of City of Heroes that cast villains as mercenaries. Even once you've triumphed over Lord Recluse and freed yourself from your fate as a 'Destined One', you still can't enact any villainous plans that weren't thought up by someone else. The tip system and improved mission technology help somewhat, but the former's heavy use of second-person narrative creates an odd contrast; in the contact missions you're a hired goon, in the tip missions you're a criminal mastermind.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
The most villainous thing in City of Villains is the Mayhem missions. It's one of the few times when you really feel villainous. Trouble is that it's still someone else's mission for which you are hired as a mercenary.
So here's a free idea for any passer-by devs: Schemes.
Schemes are not that different from Paper Missions, in that they are randomly generated from templates, and not that different from Tip Missions either in that they can generate Scheme Points, and also have a tinge of Invention System, in that it is you who decide what to do with the resources you have.
Schemes would be generated from your origin and salvage, in order to build something -- a spell, a machine, a chemical compound or whatnot -- to take over the world. You would get a selection of these missions, and you pick the one that looks suits you best.
Schemes could be:
- Set up a force field around Atlas Park, holding the area hostage for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!
- Rob a bank.
- Spread a nerve agent in King's Row, turning people into your complacent slaves.
- Cast a magic spell that drops Talos Island into the Netherworld.
- Hack NORAD and instruct their supercomputer to launch a nuke at PortalCo.
- Turn off the War Walls to get Rikti invading.
- Release Kronos Titans on King's Row.
- Break-out of superpowered villains in the Zig.
...you get the idea. The important thing is that you would instigate the Scheme, using the resources that you have available.
Schemes would generally have three parts: First, you assemble/distribute/release your nefarious invention somewhere in Paragon City. Next, you do your evil deeds, while smashing cars and barrels and post boxes as you would in a mayhem. You can do your evil deeds by activating stuff, defending places, defeating things or people, or escorting big monster while they stomp about - or in any other way.
Third, someone tries to stop you. Exactly who it is depends on how many Scheme Points you have; at low points, it's just regular PPD detectives, but as the points go up, you get PPD psychics, longbow, minor heroes and even signature heroes. If you are defeated, there's the fourth part: breaking out of the Zig.
If you succeed, you get a Scheme Point, which opens more nefarious schemes. It also makes you a bigger threat to the heroes, so they send in tougher opposing forces. You also get your salvage back, in addition to all the salvage you looted during the Scheme.
If you fail, you lose the salvage. You also have to break out from the Zig, and you are no longer a threat to Paragon City, so your Scheme Points drop to zero.
For a bit of additional chaos, add a PvP element: the villain get the option to open the scheme for PvP. The Scheme is then put into the turnstile, and any player eligible are let into the scheme, exemped to the villain's level and then have to try to stop him, pretty much like the regular opposing forces but player-controlled.
Sadly, Schemes will probably never be implemented, because it's villain-only and the devs don't do villain-only. But you can always hope that they change their minds and give us some luv.
Or else!
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
The problem with that is that Villains have built-in failure with their schemes - they can't change the game world, while Heroes have auto-success with their efforts to save the world, because the game world won't change.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Must admit, the 'Scheme' idea appeals somewhat 
Allodoxaphobia is the fear of opinions.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. MARCUS AURELIUS (121-180 AD)
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As a villain, you would never notice, as the world doesn't change in Paragon City where you are not - except when in your Scheme instances, and there the world would change. Eventually, the signature heroes would be so über that you would lose anyway, but hey, that's part of the deal.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The problem with that is that Villains have built-in failure with their schemes - they can't change the game world, while Heroes have auto-success with their efforts to save the world, because the game world won't change.
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As a rogue, you might notice. But it's not really that big a problem.
I mean, take Frostfire. The number of times he has been arrested is greater than the number of stars in heaven, or slightly bigger. Still we happily pretend he escaped and that we have to beat him up again. Or that he always has been at large, and we have to beat him and send him to jail. Sometimes we do that a couple of times straight, since several people had the mission and didn't autocomplete it.
And that's just the start. How many times have we saved the world from Lord Recluse's nefarious plans? And still, next night, he do the exact same plan again?! How many times did we smash Ms Liberty's pretty head in, and send Statesman and his pals into a rage fit because Libery was a good person and now she's dead? How many times have we liberated Reichsmann from his long incarceration? And so on, and so on.
If you can ignore that Recluse or Statesman or Reichsmann really didn't change the world, you can ignore that your scheme didn't do it either.
Schemes won't be different from those, except for one critical point: it's not Recluse's. Not Statesman's. Not Reichsmann's. It's yours.
...actually, there's one more critical point: Schemes don't exist. That's actually the biggest drawback.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
Why does every thread I make always go so off topic, just like that Statesman one, but this one actually a question...
Anyone remember the original question, y'know, why am I, a guy who thinks hes still a vigilante, trying to do evil that I know is evil when I thought the evil I was doing is good 5 minutes ago.
It's more of a topic on Lore and Morality, not a complaint on lackying for contacts.
@Blaze Moon, Blaze Moon the 2nd
This is where something more interesting than my global and this sentence would be.
Quote:
I love me some mayhem missions, and this would turn it up to 11. I like it!
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
So here's a free idea for any passer-by devs: Schemes.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
@Blaze Moon, Blaze Moon the 2nd
This is where something more interesting than my global and this sentence would be.
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Because the villain missions are written for villains who know they're evil. Either you're doing evil mercenary work that you know is evil, or you're blowing up Rikti bases for teh evuls. There aren't a lot of missions for villains who think what they're doing is right and necessary. Redside caters to the selfish and the greedy. You don't get to be Magneto. It's a problem with creating villainous content; it's easy to write for the selfish and greedy, not so easy to write for villains who think they're the good guys.
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Originally Posted by Impervious Fist
Why does every thread I make always go so off topic, just like that Statesman one, but this one actually a question...
Anyone remember the original question, y'know, why am I, a guy who thinks hes still a vigilante, trying to do evil that I know is evil when I thought the evil I was doing is good 5 minutes ago. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
I noticed this same problem during the GR beta. You are correct - the progression from villain - > rogue -> hero makes sense. You start doing missions where you are out for the money but don't REALLY want to hurt someone and eventually you start to do things just to help people and become a hero. But the hero -> vigilante -> villain progression does not work except in one case, a hero who slips into full out psychosis and becomes the worst possible kind of villain. |
Originally Posted by Impervious Fist
Why does every thread I make always go so off topic, just like that Statesman one, but this one actually a question...
Anyone remember the original question, y'know, why am I, a guy who thinks hes still a vigilante, trying to do evil that I know is evil when I thought the evil I was doing is good 5 minutes ago. It's more of a topic on Lore and Morality, not a complaint on lackying for contacts. |
The real breakdown here is the fact that the dev's wanted 4 identifiable moralities - the two black/white ones and 2 greys but a true vigilante would NEVER work with villains - the vigilante mentality is to punish/kill the villains when the law won't and as I noted above, the only viable explanation I can see for slipping over to full villainy is if you totally lost it and went psychotic. Really, things would have worked much better with just 1 grey morality - rogue. I can easily see a hero who gets tired of saving folks endlessly for no return starting to charge for it, getting more and more into the money/pay off and eventually slipping into full villainy because they no longer care for anything but the pay off.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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no, thats how id see it too. the idea as i see it is you start crossing the line bits by bits for the greater good, but the more you use over the top force, the more you enjoy it till it, not justice, becomes the prime motivator. ultimately its always up to your interpretation, is the rogue just a hardcore mercenary or someone gradually coming to their morality? nothing is going to fit every concept, but it does work.
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Originally Posted by Impervious Fist
So what your saying is, its up to the player really on what their intentions are?
Or you could just be making the funnies, I dunno I'm really messed up tonight. |
Quote:
I only have 1 character whose gone from Hero > Villain (started out in Praetoria, power arc). Seemed to make perfect progression for him. In Praetoria, he was more concerned with making nice-nice with the higher-ups, get them to trust him so he can turn on them and make himself look good/obtain some status/power.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
I noticed this same problem during the GR beta. You are correct - the progression from villain - > rogue -> hero makes sense. You start doing missions where you are out for the money but don't REALLY want to hurt someone and eventually you start to do things just to help people and become a hero. But the hero -> vigilante -> villain progression does not work except in one case, a hero who slips into full out psychosis and becomes the worst possible kind of villain.
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He swings over to Heroes and suddenly he's surrounded by goodie goods? Well, he did the same, played nice-nice but when he wasn't getting anything out of it, he started doing what he wanted to do with the excuse of it being justice. When he finally makes it to the Rogue isles and finds out pretty much everyone is out for themselves, he doesn't have to be nice or make excuses. Image isn't built through 'seeming' nice in the RIs, it's fear and power.
And here people complain about the devs deciding our own motivations for us. Decide for yourself why your vigilante finally becomes crooked.
Well, vigilante missions often talk about how your character is making payoffs for a 'greater good', or using a definition of justice that is based on the strength of their own ideals (one with Silent Blade comes to mind, I forget the name).
Falling to villainside can be seen getting more and more caught up in your own definition of Justice and more and more extreme in what constitutes an acceptable payoff. Eventually you decide that there's only one person moral enough to dispense said Justice and that any price, any, even working with known villains, will be worth in the end when your plans come to fruition and you show them, show them all.
Just one possible take on the matter, there's many ways a hero can go rotten.
I'm currently running my first Vigilante -> Villain path and more or less enjoying the missions so this isn't a hard complaint. But, to address the OP, I do think some of the missions could have more of an element of "Taking this sweet tech for yourself will help you in the future, to heck with the cops" or "You could let this pile of cash sit in impound or you could put it to real use". Something that sloped towards greed and power more directly then just bloodier vigilantism.
If such missions exist, I haven't noticed them yet but this is my first time around that bend.
So ever since the i19 new morality missions came out I noticed something that's bothered me. I know by the time you reach the villain morality mission, basically your a hero who has gone waaaaay to far to serve good. However, even after you reach it, your still all "Justice is served" and then you can be a villain and probably end up saying "Justice is still waiting for it's order." All I wonder is, what happened? I see that the missions are made for you to be more like seeping too far, because they are genius like that, but it really doesn't fit so well with the redside's goals, doesn't it? What's my motivation for doing bad deeds that I know are bad, right after I came off of a boat saying "Justice is awesome, too bad that puppy didn't realize that."
@Blaze Moon, Blaze Moon the 2nd
This is where something more interesting than my global and this sentence would be.