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While there's good advice in that topic, some of the stuff said there seems to be about proving some point and winning the argument rather than making sense. Maneuvers is a great power and a worthy addition to many builds, especially since Fitness became inherent.| In the great thread In your personal opinion... which I am trying to fully understand, one poster mentioned that some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates. |
What is referred as the new softcap is usually 59% defense (to fight foes with 64%* tohit). Personally, I don't think it's worth building for it - a trend much bigger than slightly higher tohit in the new content is to make encounters more dynamic and/or outright ignore defenses. I think it's best to build for unsuppressed movement and maxHP, those two things are (so far) still working and useful in all situations, as well as much harder to come by from external sources than extra defense.
*not 60%, my bad
A simple fix swap stealth for weave... it will take more power selections but is worth it imo for what you want.
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Battle Maiden and her minions have 64% base to-hit (not 60%) so 59% defense is required to minimize your chances of getting hit. That is the only encounter in current live content that has a higher "soft cap". I have not had time to check into the test server encounters, so someone else would have to pitch in if those also have higher base to-hit. As a side-note, summoned pets have 75% base to-hit, if I remember correctly.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
I have seen off hand references to the 'new Soft Cap' defense needed for some of the new content, where some or all opponents have significant to-hit buffs, but a search failed to locate any meaningful discussion.
So what are the relavent 'new Soft Cap' numbers vs which opponents? |
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| In the great thread In your personal opinion... which I am trying to fully understand, one poster mentioned that some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates. |
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| 1) Do Stealth effects actually lower your Threat rating and/or aggro maintenance. I don't see any mention in MIDS or Red Tomax. Did I miss it? |
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| 2) If the only effect of Stealth is to slow aggro aquisition somewhat, would Stealth, as a defense boost vs extreme foes, be so very bad? If running solo, would Stealth be viable then? |
If you open with an AoE attack that hits most of the enemies, you shouldn't have problems getting aggro quickly. Epic powers are good for that.
Edit: Some general advice on the "new soft cap": Don't worry about it. If it is in content that is designed for teams, you will likely have some defense buffs from your teammates to surpass the "new soft cap". Stealth isn't going to get you there, so don't bother respeccing for it.
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The 64% base to hit also shows up with Devouring Earth in Tip missions. For some reason, the tip missions use "Praetorian DE" templates. At least the bosses do for sure.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Battle Maiden and her minions have 64% base to-hit (not 60%) so 59% defense is required to minimize your chances of getting hit. That is the only encounter in current live content that has a higher "soft cap".
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There might be other high-level tip missions with mobs with boosted defense. My memory is unclear on that point.
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Plus, inspirations are there for a reason. If your at the currently soft cap, (45%) then 1 small purple will get you to 57%, which is pretty much good enough for the new soft cap (59%) especially if your sitting on 46-48% def, which some people get anyways when going for the softcap.
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60% defense.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
I have seen off hand references to the 'new Soft Cap' defense needed for some of the new content, where some or all opponents have significant to-hit buffs, but a search failed to locate any meaningful discussion.
So what are the relevant 'new Soft Cap' numbers vs which opponents? |
It is intentionally set high enough so that you will not be passively hitting it without team-mates.
Granted, there are some power-set combinations, such as Katana / SR, that can still drive a Melee-Softcap over this amount. Ice Armor is also capable of driving Smashing / Lethal soft-cap with a combination of IO buffs and a high enough recharge on Energy Absorbtion.
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With the 'new Soft Cap' in mind, I have only a Granite tank and stay in Granite almost all the time. Two defense powers that will stack with Granite are Manuevers, which I already use, and Stealth. In the great thread In your personal opinion... which I am trying to fully understand, one poster mentioned that some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates. I have never used Stealth itself on any toon, just Steamy Mist on my Storm Def., but I have been invisible on my Granite tank from Group Invisibility several times and it did not seem to affect my aggro holding abilities. It just made the initial grab a little more difficult. 1) Do Stealth effects actually lower your Threat rating and/or aggro maintenance. I don't see any mention in MIDS or Red Tomax. Did I miss it? |
What stealth effects do is decrease the distance at which enemies notice you. This is why enabling stealth can make taking initial aggro harder. Enemies are "more likely" to notice other team-mates. With some armor sets, such as Dark Armor, you can generate repeatable instances when running Cloak of Darkness and/or one of the mez effects where enemies that move outside of the taunt aura and recover from stun or fear will perform a perception check, and attack team-mates.
In a practical effect then, Stealth powers can influence aggro management that does not show up purely in "numbers"
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| 2) If the only effect of Stealth is to slow aggro acquisition somewhat, would Stealth, as a defense boost vs extreme foes, be so very bad? If running solo, would Stealth be viable then? |
Now, that being said, if you are at 42% defense, an ED capped Stealth will get you really close to 45%.
You'd need to be around 57% defense with an ED capped Stealth to approach the "incarnate stealth cap"
You may be able to get there with the Nerve Global Enhancement and focusing on Smashing / Lethal IO buffs over more useful buffs to granite such as Recharge and Movement speeds.
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Some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates.
If I was to watch you play, and the team mates say, were always the same, careful, no nonsense bunch of players, then it is possible that no one needs you to have manuevers and you don't need to have it either. With a table top template game you have circle templates and triangle templates. They show the area of damage. Now if you as a Tanker dictate the battle and your team allows for it, then no one needs to be inside of what would be them templates. If no one else gets hit then manuevers, is superfluous. Now some people play to achieve that and in pugs don't fault themselves for how people play their characters. If people want to be taken down by aoes then they only need to be in the middle of them. There were other options but they didn't use them, their fault. If there is a better choice than manuevers given the mindset of someone who creates situations that can offer teams a chance to never get hit then they will choose something else. Something that is perhaps good in pvp like assault which will help them resist taunt and placate. There isnt a law that you have failed if you take manuevers, you just have a different mindset. I would personally avoid manuevers for something better.
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My Icer can hit 61% defense to S/L/E/N with Nerve T3 and a saturated EA - as long as he survives long enough to get EA off. But I don't really see a problem as when I'm running that content most of my team at least has manuevers or another pbaoe def power like shadowfall.
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Well.... basically it's a worthless comment and doesn't really mean anything in the big picture. That thread migrated to super high end builds and using spreadsheets to analyze survivability. If it makes sense for your character, take it and ignore snarky comments on the forums.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
one poster mentioned that some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates.
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Having said that, it really is a TINY bonus. I have Maneuvers on exactly two tanks:
- my stone tank, who never turns it on and only has it to slot LotG +7.5% recharge and GotA +7.5% run speed
- my shield tank who also has Grant Cover and gives his teammates a lot of defense
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I have Manuver on my high end tank for 2 reasons.
1) Its more Def... yeah its not huge but its still something and I have more then enough end to run it. Adding to teammates is just a bonus.
2) Its a great mule power for Luck of the Gambler 7.5 recharge.
3) I had the power free to use somwere... why not use it for something that provides some kind of bonus (Def and Mule Slot).
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It's 59%, and I've got a planned DB/EA Brute that can reach it for S/L/E/F/C with no outside buffs. My stone tank could easily reach it for S/L/E/N/F/C in Granite if I built for defense rather than movement, and I suspect my Claws/SR scrapper could do so for melee/range/AoE if I put in the effort. For that matter, my Katana/Elec scrapper could hit it for lethal/melee on SOs if I used a suboptimal attack chain.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
60% defense.
It is intentionally set high enough so that you will not be passively hitting it without team-mates. |
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Originally Posted by JakHammer
1) Do Stealth effects actually lower your Threat rating and/or aggro maintenance. I don't see any mention in MIDS or Red Tomax. Did I miss it?
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
No. Once an enemy is aware of your presence it functions as if you didn't have Stealth.
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However, if the tank is stealthed, and the blaster is not, and that blaster follows too closely on the tank's heels, the enemies will see the blaster before the tank, and before the tank is close enough for his aggro holding tools to help him.
In other words, a stealthed tank can hold aggro just as well as a non-stealthed one, but he may not do as well at protecting his teammates from alphas, especially if those teammates are dumb.
@Roderick
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okay manuvuers might be a bad power pick up but it isn't all bad though when you think about
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Originally Posted by new dawn
some regard a tanker using manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates.
If i was to watch you play, and the team mates say, were always the same, careful, no nonsense bunch of players, then it is possible that no one needs you to have manuevers and you don't need to have it either. With a table top template game you have circle templates and triangle templates. They show the area of damage. Now if you as a tanker dictate the battle and your team allows for it, then no one needs to be inside of what would be them templates. If no one else gets hit then manuevers, is superfluous. Now some people play to achieve that and in pugs don't fault themselves for how people play their characters. If people want to be taken down by aoes then they only need to be in the middle of them. There were other options but they didn't use them, their fault. If there is a better choice than manuevers given the mindset of someone who creates situations that can offer teams a chance to never get hit then they will choose something else. Something that is perhaps good in pvp like assault which will help them resist taunt and placate. There isnt a law that you have failed if you take manuevers, you just have a different mindset. I would personally avoid manuevers for something better. |
You're going to mostly encounter the new and high soft-cap in Forces and Trials that require teammates, who almost assuredly will provide if not enough DEF buffage to hit the cap, then the mitigation needed to survive not being at the cap.
The only people for whom this is problematic are those who want to solo the Trial or Force either as a true soloist, or, they think they can split from the group and do their own thing safely v. 15 +4 Bosses for an extended time.
The new cap discourages that... rather purposely.
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How well does that work as discouragement vs. 15 +3 bosses, +2 bosses, or +1 bosses, which is what we eventually will be facing?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
they think they can split from the group and do their own thing safely v. 15 +4 Bosses for an extended time.
The new cap discourages that... rather purposely. |
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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We'll see. Especially since there are some builds that can hit the new cap by themselves. But then again, they might be looking at more Brute-like fury (BCUs) and Defense Debuff foes...
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
How well does that work as discouragement vs. 15 +3 bosses, +2 bosses, or +1 bosses, which is what we eventually will be facing?
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I have seen off hand references to the 'new Soft Cap' defense needed for some of the new content, where some or all opponents have significant to-hit buffs, but a search failed to locate any meaningful discussion.
So what are the relavent 'new Soft Cap' numbers vs which opponents?
Now the duh stuff.
With the 'new Soft Cap' in mind, I have only a Granite tank and stay in Granite almost all the time. Two defense powers that will stack with Granite are Manuevers, which I already use, and Stealth.
In the great thread In your personal opinion... which I am trying to fully understand, one poster mentioned that some regard a Tanker using Manuevers as a 'failed build'. Why? It seems great to me and also buffs my team mates.
I have never used Stealth itself on any toon, just Steamy Mist on my Storm Def., but I have been invisible on my Granite tank from Group Invisibility several times and it did not seem to affect my aggro holding abilities. It just made the initial grab a little more difficult.
1) Do Stealth effects actually lower your Threat rating and/or aggro maintenance. I don't see any mention in MIDS or Red Tomax. Did I miss it?
2) If the only effect of Stealth is to slow aggro aquisition somewhat, would Stealth, as a defense boost vs extreme foes, be so very bad? If running solo, would Stealth be viable then?
Thanks,
Jak