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In the very broad sense of "the main character uses stylized escapist fantasy to deal with a bad reality" then yes Sucker Punch "rips off" Brazil. But because Brazil actually has a well formed story and characters you can empathize with I'd say the similarity between Brazil and Sucker Punch is as about as close as night and day.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Isn't anyone complaining how much Snyder rips off Terry Gilliam's Brazil in this movie, from the weird fantasy-sequences that mix genres to the "Return I will to old Brazil" finale? Once again, Snyder has taken superficial inspiration from a classic and produced a sleek but hollow pastiche.
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Sucker Punch is at best a very dumbed down, CGI-hollow, video-gamey version of Brazil.
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Never seen it!|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Isn't anyone complaining how much Snyder rips off Terry Gilliam's Brazil in this movie, from the weird fantasy-sequences that mix genres to the "Return I will to old Brazil" finale? Once again, Snyder has taken superficial inspiration from a classic and produced a sleek but hollow pastiche.
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Does it look as pretty? Doesn't sound it from that link.
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"Rips off" was my phrase. Snyder, in an interview, claimed Brazil "really inspired me" in making Sucker Punch. Taking that at face value, Snyder's idea of inspiration is "mimick the cool stuff, lose the substance, and ignore the subtext's critique of the theme". Just as with Watchmen and Dawn of the Dead, he's claimed that he's a huge fan of the original work yet doesn't seem to have absorbed anything beyond their "look" and "mood".|
Originally Posted by Lothic
In the very broad sense of "the main character uses stylized escapist fantasy to deal with a bad reality" then yes Sucker Punch "rips off" Brazil. But because Brazil actually has a well formed story and characters you can empathize with I'd say the similarity between Brazil and Sucker Punch is as about as close as night and day.
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(Ordinarily, I wouldn't be complaining about this lightweight flick, but it's feeding into my misgivings about Snyder's helming the Superman reboot.)
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Never seen it!
Does it look as pretty? Doesn't sound it from that link. |
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What? And risk having the skimpy clothing and upskirt flashes taken away?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Isn't anyone complaining how much Snyder rips off Terry Gilliam's Brazil in this movie, from the weird fantasy-sequences that mix genres to the "Return I will to old Brazil" finale? Once again, Snyder has taken superficial inspiration from a classic and produced a sleek but hollow pastiche.
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No they wouldn't.
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To be fair, I think it's pretty hard to call something a rip off when the director admits to another movie being a direct influence on his work. It's influence...homage....not rip off. And the movies are far too different to say anything was ripped off. Not to mention that there are many other movies that deal with fantasy worlds created by the main character as a use of escape. It's not that unique a concept.
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Does Brazil look as "pretty" as Sucker Punch? *sigh*|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never seen it!
Does it look as pretty? Doesn't sound it from that link. |
About the only thing that Sucker Punch did better than Brazil was to get made like 25 years later.
If Sucker Punch didn't have cutting-edge CGI it would be a TOTAL loss.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
To be fair, I think it's pretty hard to call something a rip off when the director admits to another movie being a direct influence on his work. It's influence...homage....not rip off. And the movies are far too different to say anything was ripped off. Not to mention that there are many other movies that deal with fantasy worlds created by the main character as a use of escape. It's not that unique a concept.
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I'm being especially harsh on Snyder because he's made such claims before without backing them up in his movies. Romero, Moore, and Gilliam put so much more into their works than Snyder, so his upward career arc is particularly annoying. As for the escapism theme, while it's hardly unique (Walter Mitty, anyone?), Gilliam's take on it is brilliant and disquieting. Snyder appears to be only looking to pander to the fanboys while claiming to have a "feminist" subtext the same way the Pussycat Dolls do. (I've been getting pressure from my geekier friends to see Sucker Punch, so I'm warming up my arguments to say no.)
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
It's influence...homage....not rip off. And the movies are far too different to say anything was ripped off. Not to mention that there are many other movies that deal with fantasy worlds created by the main character as a use of escape. It's not that unique a concept.
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I'm far from a Sucker Punch apologist (see review). I just think its fair to critcize the movie for it's short comings (there are plenty), but not fair to call the man a 'thief'. And yes, Sucker Punch could learn a ton from Brazil. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Does Brazil look as "pretty" as Sucker Punch? *sigh*
About the only thing that Sucker Punch did better than Brazil was to get made like 25 years later. If Sucker Punch didn't have cutting-edge CGI it would be a TOTAL loss. Yes we can quibble on whether the term "homage" is more appropriate than "rip-off" in this case. But frankly I almost wish Snyder did "rip-off" Brazil a little more directly. His movie would have -greatly- benefited from it. |
Edited for tone.
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Brazil is a Monty Python film; the looks are not important. But for all that it does look pretty good. I didn't like it much, myself.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never seen it!
Does it look as pretty? Doesn't sound it from that link. |
If the main character in Sucker Punch ends up lobotomized, it is not a movie I want to see. I don't care why it happens. I want a movie that either celebrates schizophrenia (Donnie Darko) or celebrates one's power to overcome it (A Beautiful Mind). I have no interest in a movie that says, 'Well, as a dreamer in a cruel world, you're better off dead.'
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The movie has absolutely nothing to do with schizophrenia. I don't think the word is even used at all. It's not even about mental illness, except in that it shows how poorly the mentally ill were treated in institutions 40-50 years ago. Again she was put there against her will, with NO diagnosis, under false pretenses and the procedure was shown to be barbaric and wrong. Nothing glamorized or made it seem to be a viable option.
You're getting caught up in something that has nothing to do with the movie, Remus.
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If you watch to the very very very end credit, you will see this:|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I have no interest in a movie that says, 'Well, as a dreamer in a cruel world, you're better off dead.'
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Copyright 2011, Westin Phipps LLC.
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I agree that worrying about how much (or little) Synder "borrowed" from Brazil is at best a side issue to all this. The fact still remains that even after claiming that he was "inspired" by Brazil he somehow manged to create at best a very imperfect copy of it. |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I'm far from a Sucker Punch apologist (see review). I just think its fair to critcize the movie for it's short comings (there are plenty), but not fair to call the man a 'thief'. And yes, Sucker Punch could learn a ton from Brazil.
Edited for tone. |
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***SPOLIER ALERT***|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
If the main character in Sucker Punch ends up lobotomized, it is not a movie I want to see. I don't care why it happens. I want a movie that either celebrates schizophrenia (Donnie Darko) or celebrates one's power to overcome it (A Beautiful Mind). I have no interest in a movie that says, 'Well, as a dreamer in a cruel world, you're better off dead.'
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One of the worst parts of Sucker Punch is that it tries to have both a tragic ending and happy ending at the same time. It can't seem to decide what it wants to do. First you have the main character end up being lobotomized despite all her efforts to escape. But somehow we're supposed to think that's OK because she "sacrificed herself" for one of the other girls who ironically was the one who the most pessimistic and kept trying to keep the other girls from "risking" an escape attempt in the first place. The whole thing is just such a messy mess that it was very hard to care what happened to any of them.
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lol, well I guess there was something cool about this movie after all. |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
If you watch to the very very very end credit, you will see this:
Copyright 2011, Westin Phipps LLC. |
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But saying Snyder rips off Gilliam is like saying Moore's V rips off 1984 (the movie version was more blatant at it). Sucker Punch and Brazil are two completely different movies.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
I'm being especially harsh on Snyder because he's made such claims before without backing them up in his movies.
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That's for sure. Brazil was a good movie, Sucker Punch wasn't. |
Originally Posted by Innovator
Sucker Punch and Brazil are two completely different movies.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
just think its fair to critcize the movie for it's short comings (there are plenty), but not fair to call the man a 'thief'.
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Originally Posted by Innovator
But saying Snyder rips off Gilliam is like saying Moore's V rips off 1984. Sucker Punch and Brazil are two completely different movies.
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Again, I'd be a lot less harsh about this film if it weren't an $82M would-be blockbuster whose track record is going to impact a comic book-based movie with much more potential. These days there are too many big-ticket geek-centric busts that should be low-budget b-movies. At a certain point after so many flops, it's going to be hard for anyone to receive studio financing of any sort for these kinds of movies.
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Sounds more like he's ripping off one flew over the cookoos nest. badly.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
***SPOLIER ALERT***
One of the worst parts of Sucker Punch is that it tries to have both a tragic ending and happy ending at the same time. It can't seem to decide what it wants to do. First you have the main character end up being lobotomized despite all her efforts to escape. But somehow we're supposed to think that's OK because she "sacrificed herself" for one of the other girls who ironically was the one who the most pessimistic and kept trying to keep the other girls from "risking" an escape attempt in the first place. The whole thing is just such a messy mess that it was very hard to care what happened to any of them. |
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Originally Posted by Innovator
But saying Snyder rips off Gilliam is like saying Moore's V rips off 1984 (the movie version was more blatant at it).
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Ok, if you're going to continue to argue with me over semantics, the term rip off does in fact imply theft. Your choice of words, not mine.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Nobody's calling Snyder a thief (he's one the drawing comparisons between Sucker Punch and Brazil). He just puts me in mind of the saying "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." He's inarguably good at design and action sequences, but he's emphatically not a great artist despite repeatedly drawing "inspiration" from them. Moore, a great artist who steals all the time, is quite open about his inspirations for V for Vendetta, but his final product actually backs them up.
Again, I'd be a lot less harsh about this film if it weren't an $82M would-be blockbuster whose track record is going to impact a comic book-based movie with much more potential. These days there are too many big-ticket geek-centric busts that should be low-budget b-movies. At a certain point after so many flops, it's going to be hard for anyone to receive studio financing of any sort for these kinds of movies. |
Also, take the success or failure of Sucker Punch out of the picture. Snyder still isn't the right director for Superman. His fast edits and slow mo will not work for a Supes movie. I think for a Superman film you need classic Americana cinematography, not flashy MTV style visuals. I think the last movie "looked" liked a Superman film should, but unfortunately had an abyssmal script and plot. I think to pull off a Superman story, you need to go big, widescreen, cinematic and more classic Hollywood. Snyder just ain't that guy unless he makes major changes to his visual style.
I don't think you need to use this movie as a point that drive home how terrible the guy is. If this movie was fantastic, he still wouldn't be the guy for the job.
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Rip-off can indeed imply theft, but it can also imply a cheap imitation. I used a colloquial expression in this case, but if it is a matter of semantics, then "knock-off" will do fine.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Ok, if you're going to continue to argue with me over semantics, the term rip off does in fact imply theft. Your choice of words, not mine.
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The irony is, I haven't anything against the "girls with guns" subgenre, which can be a lot of fun in the right hands (Adam Warren's updates on The Dirty Pair, for instance).
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Originally Posted by Cass_
Sounds more like he's ripping off one flew over the cookoos nest. badly.
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Of course I am. I'm a schizophrenic, remember? |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
You're getting caught up in something that has nothing to do with the movie, Remus.
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Look, people who are trying to quit smoking shouldn't watch Mad Men. The show has nothing to do with smoking, but they display it in unhealthy ways. It's the same issue here. I'm just saying.
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Don't think they even mention what disorder the Blue cooked up for the stepfather in order to throw Baby Doll into the asylum other than mentioning she's suffering from severe depression and the so-called murder of her sister. Then again plot and story elements were scattered about here and there, and only pulled up when the scene called for it. Honestly they could have said it was a home for wayward girls, a prison, or made it a brothel. It wouldn't have mattered at all for this movie.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Brazil is a Monty Python film; the looks are not important. But for all that it does look pretty good. I didn't like it much, myself.
If the main character in Sucker Punch ends up lobotomized, it is not a movie I want to see. I don't care why it happens. I want a movie that either celebrates schizophrenia (Donnie Darko) or celebrates one's power to overcome it (A Beautiful Mind). I have no interest in a movie that says, 'Well, as a dreamer in a cruel world, you're better off dead.' |
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Of course I am. I'm a schizophrenic, remember?
Look, people who are trying to quit smoking shouldn't watch Mad Men. The show has nothing to do with smoking, but they display it in unhealthy ways. It's the same issue here. I'm just saying. |
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Originally Posted by Unknown_User
Don't think they even mention what disorder the Blue cooked up for the stepfather in order to throw Baby Doll into the asylum other than mentioning she's suffering from severe depression and the so-called murder of her sister. Then again plot and story elements were scattered about here and there, and only pulled up when the scene called for it. Honestly they could have said it was a home for wayward girls, a prison, or made it a brothel. It wouldn't have mattered at all for this movie.
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The whole "threat of lobotomy" subtext of this movie was handled in such a hamfisted way that I'm not really sure how much it would apply to "real world" mental problems at all. Basically it was pretty clear that the "evil stepfather" was using the "corrupt mental institution" as a means to assassinate a bothersome step-child that stood between him and a big inheritance. The lobotomy in this case was just an indirect substitute for directly killing her. This movie really had effectively nothing to do with actual mental institutions or the treatment of mental disorders of any kind.
As Unknown_User said the "real world" setting of this movie was basically immaterial.
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In his Afterword to the "graphic novel" of V for Vendetta, Alan Moore gives a long list of influences, and 1984 heads the list.
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Originally Posted by Cass_
Well that's because it isn't, 1984 is about the futility of resistance to a facist dictatorship as a warning never to let it come to pass. V is espousing the idea that resistance is the only option.
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...at the end the main character is lobotomized, and remains imprisoned in the mental institution while her mind continues fantasizing.