Hypothetical: Most cool looking power v. Most powerful power
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-03-23 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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thematically, for a character themed after a mma fighter, it kind of looks like a hard overhand punch i have seen thrown. that said, while i have it on one of rian's costumes, i prefer the kick by a longshot.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So, yeah. And on that note, the alternate punch animation... does anyone use it? I tried, really hard to get used to it, and finally just gave up. Taking EC and then using the punch is like like taking Siphon Life and slotting it for tohit debuff. I'm sure there are people that do it, I just will never understand why. |
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You say that like its a good thing.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
The sloooooooooooow puuuuuuuuunch at least doesn't defy the laws of physics
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
For me, the appeal of MA isn't just Eagle's Claw but moreso the combination animation of it's attacks. For example, doing the crouch>spin of Dragon's Tail followed by Eagle's Claw looks really cool (like you put more spring into that EC since it looks like you go from crouching to jumping). Or the reverse, EC > DT almost looks like you land in a crouch after the backflip then just do a sweep while you're down there.
Or another example, Storm Kick into Dragon's Tail. It's a lot of spinning but if your fighter is by any means acrobatic, it looks the part. Or Dragon's Tail > Cobra Strike (the uppercut animation). Looks more like a Shoryuken when it's coming from a crouch. Link it all together: SK > DT > EC > CS. Looks like your fighter is really getting into a fight. |
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The original Storm Kick was cool.
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I've used it, not because I expressly like the animation, but because it's the closest thing to a specific attack that the game SORELY MISSES. I mean, more specifically, a basic, strong, forward punch. Jin Saotome demonstrates:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And on that note, the alternate punch animation... does anyone use it? I tried, really hard to get used to it, and finally just gave up. Taking EC and then using the punch is like like taking Siphon Life and slotting it for tohit debuff. I'm sure there are people that do it, I just will never understand why.
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Think back to all the animations we have for all the punching attacks in the game. This doesn't exist. We have a wide-swinging haymaker (alternate Haymaker animation), we have an uppercut (alternate Cobra Strike animation, original Knockout Blow), we have an underhand gut punch (Boxing) a few downward looking punches (Brawl, Barrage, Energy Punch, etc.) but the ONLY straight punch we have is Jab, and that's... Well, a jab.
Think of it this way: You are super strong, you have a thick brick wall in front of you that you'd rather punch your way through. You don't swing, jab, uppercut or pummel said wall. You give it a straight punch at shoulder level, and if the show animators like you, you blow a huge hole in the thing, with expanding shockwaves and all the fanfare. Or, for a little bit of a more specific example, look at this Hulk Punch:
To loop back on topic, a straight punch power with sufficient ground-shaking and sprite effects to it would carry an inherently HUGE value to it. So huge, in fact, that I'd want it to be the best attack in whatever set it came with, such that THIS would be the one attack I'd want to use all the time. That Super Strength doesn't have this is EMBARRASSING. That Super Strength instead has a Popeye windup punch is just... Depressing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There are tiny pauses in there that I wish the new animator could make more fluid, but that chain looks like this. Probably not the best videography, but I was in the middle of testing something in the AE and that was what was available. Strangely, when I decided to start fraps, the two vamps suddenly got a lot more accurate in their swings, like they knew they were on TV.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You make a compelling case, Arcanaville!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Eagle's Claw is slow, does too little damage, has a crit-boosting effect that malfunctions, and a stun that is so ridiculously short it wears off in almost as much time as it takes to stack cobra and EC in the first place.
On the other hand: [IMG] So, yeah. And on that note, the alternate punch animation... does anyone use it? I tried, really hard to get used to it, and finally just gave up. Taking EC and then using the punch is like like taking Siphon Life and slotting it for tohit debuff. I'm sure there are people that do it, I just will never understand why. |
Note to self: 1) swap out EC to the kick on my MA Scrapper. 2) figure out what I was on when I selected the punch animation, and flush the rest of it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So, yeah. And on that note, the alternate punch animation... does anyone use it? I tried, really hard to get used to it, and finally just gave up. Taking EC and then using the punch is like like taking Siphon Life and slotting it for tohit debuff. I'm sure there are people that do it, I just will never understand why.
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No, seriously, I used the punch for a while on my miniskirt costume because my daughter complained that the bad guys could see my underwear. I changed it back pretty quickly, and told her I was wearing my bathing suit under my clothes.Relevance? Oh yes, this was immediately after the change to Cobra Strike, which I immediately swapped out Crane Kick for, because Cobra Strike is way cool, but previously wasn't cool enough to compensate for being totally useless. Now I use it after EC all the time even though CaK benefits more from the increased crit chance, because it looks cooler dammit!
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I use it. I've got a character whose fighting skill is... not skill. It's luck. Therefore, I take the least skillful looking attacks for him. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So, yeah. And on that note, the alternate punch animation... does anyone use it? I tried, really hard to get used to it, and finally just gave up. Taking EC and then using the punch is like like taking Siphon Life and slotting it for tohit debuff. I'm sure there are people that do it, I just will never understand why.
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Remember that argument we got in way back when, discussing the idea of powerset and/or AT respecs, when I said that my character should have the "Street Fighting" set when it came out because it would fit his concept better and I was only using MA as a stand-in, and you were like "No. Your character is Martial Arts, because the game says so" and I was like "NOO WAAY" and then Martial Arts got punches?
That was great.
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Cool looking, with a caveat.
I prefer the cool looking powers provided they don't completely gimp my ability to defeat my enemy in a reasonable amount of time.
I have exactly ONE brute who has Gloom, and it's because he's Dark Melee to begin with. I don't like taking powers that I can't justify or explain that character having.
As far as the Incarnate powers go. I'll be choosing them based on the character. For exmple, my main is a robotics engineer. His backstory has him developing something very similar to the Praetorian Clockwork (the Praetorian version of him assisted in their creation), so taking the Clockwork Lore pet is a no-brainer for him.
My Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper will get the negative energy Judgement power, even if a different one is 1000% better, because the darkness powers come from his sword, which is the same place his Incarnate powers come from (kinda like Hero 1 and Excalibur, only the sword is evil)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I'd be interested to see how many people who don't already have ice powers will actually take Cryonic Judgement.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper will get the negative energy Judgement power, even if a different one is 1000% better, because the darkness powers come from his sword, which is the same place his Incarnate powers come from (kinda like Hero 1 and Excalibur, only the sword is evil)
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Well, technically the alternate animation for Eagle's Claw was taken from an existing power: Stun (its also used by Impale). But what I don't like about it is that its *not* a basic, forward punch. Its actually an overhand throw, like a baseball pitch. In fact, the original animator must have been using a baseball pitch as the actual reference for the animation, because the animation is actually called "baseball_punch."|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've used it, not because I expressly like the animation, but because it's the closest thing to a specific attack that the game SORELY MISSES. I mean, more specifically, a basic, strong, forward punch.
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Here's Cobra Strike, which to me is more of a forward punch, and the punch animation of Eagle's Claw one after the other.
It might be difficult to see at full speed, but that's a downward arcing throw. I tried to make it easier to see in this set of frames:
Picasion seems to make it a bit grainy, but I think the downward throw is still clearly visible. Its really a throwing motion that was reused as a punch.
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Honestly, I don't, which is unusual. But out of context, that's not something I would ordinarily say. What I do say is that archetype and powerset decisions are immutable in the game currently, which means they should not normally be alterable. If you want something that the game doesn't have and you use a placeholder, when what you actually want comes out you'll have to reroll, because the game doesn't and cannot know what your original intent was nor honor it to be fair to other players it will enforce the decision on.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
I use it. I've got a character whose fighting skill is... not skill. It's luck. Therefore, I take the least skillful looking attacks for him.
Remember that argument we got in way back when, discussing the idea of powerset and/or AT respecs, when I said that my character should have the "Street Fighting" set when it came out because it would fit his concept better and I was only using MA as a stand-in, and you were like "No. Your character is Martial Arts, because the game says so" and I was like "NOO WAAY" and then Martial Arts got punches? That was great. |
What I would say is you're martial arts not because the game says so, but because you said so when you rolled your character.
Also, unless this was *really* long ago, I wouldn't have been making any bets against MA getting punch animations. I had a pretty good idea those were coming eventually all the way back in '07.
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It is also the old animation for Slash.
I remember when a Claws attack chain took eons to run through, and barely did any damage. Between Follow Up's pause at the end, the baseball pitch of Slash, and the longer, more drawn out animation for Eviscerate meant that in order to use your better attacks you had to spend nearly 10 seconds stuck in animations.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I was considering it for my Illusion controller. It was a slam dunk until Ion had its chain limit increased from "anemic" to "holy crap!" It simultaneously *looks* most consistent with illusion powers and has a critical hold, which provides additional control and containment generation.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I'd be interested to see how many people who don't already have ice powers will actually take Cryonic Judgement.
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Uhh Fist of Annihilation?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've used it, not because I expressly like the animation, but because it's the closest thing to a specific attack that the game SORELY MISSES. I mean, more specifically, a basic, strong, forward punch. Jin Saotome demonstrates:
Think back to all the animations we have for all the punching attacks in the game. This doesn't exist. We have a wide-swinging haymaker (alternate Haymaker animation), we have an uppercut (alternate Cobra Strike animation, original Knockout Blow), we have an underhand gut punch (Boxing) a few downward looking punches (Brawl, Barrage, Energy Punch, etc.) but the ONLY straight punch we have is Jab, and that's... Well, a jab. |
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Eliot Lefebvre over at Massively posted the following in his column today:
A Mild Mannered Reporter To me (which is probably of no surprise to anyone), that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. But it had me wondering. If you could have EITHER (no cheating, you can't have both) the most cool looking power in the game (however you define it) OR the most mechanically strong power in the game which would you choose? |
It really depends.
If the most cool looking power is only slightly weaker than the strongest looking power, then I'd take it.
But if I want to be efficient in combat and the most cool looking power is just half as strong as the strongest power, than I'd rather have the strongest power.
When alternate animations were announced for MA and Super Strength back in i16, I was totally all, like, "Man, I really hope they use the Impale/old Slash animation as a punch somewhere in there!" And then I found out they did...in the one power that I could never bring myself to change the animation on. And I let out an epic "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Seriously, the punch animation is totally cool, but the whole reason I pick Martial Arts as a powerset is to do a midair backflip by kicking off people's faces.
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I reworded it because I couldn't remember the exact words, and honestly, I only mentioned it to make a Portal reference. My goal was to make you laugh (or probably just chuckle, or maybe half-smile, or possibly just be mildly amused with no external display of amusement), not revisit that argument.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Honestly, I don't, which is unusual. But out of context, that's not something I would ordinarily say.
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Now I'm going to make myself feel like the Joke Explainer, and revisit the argument in order to explain myself.
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| What I do say is that archetype and powerset decisions are immutable in the game currently, which means they should not normally be alterable. If you want something that the game doesn't have and you use a placeholder, when what you actually want comes out you'll have to reroll, because the game doesn't and cannot know what your original intent was nor honor it to be fair to other players it will enforce the decision on. |
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| What I would say is you're martial arts not because the game says so, but because you said so when you rolled your character. |
The gist of our argument was that you (I'm paraphrasing here) said that my character is what it is in the game, not a representation of what it is in my head, while I feel the exact opposite, and that playing representations of what is in your head is the entire point of an RPG. This is not an argument I want to get into again. Let's just disagree on it.
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| Also, unless this was *really* long ago, I wouldn't have been making any bets against MA getting punch animations. I had a pretty good idea those were coming eventually all the way back in '07. |
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I have a WP/DB Tanker as my main, so it´s definetly...
Cool>Powerful
A Power(set) can be as strong as possible, if it doesn´t feel right(and look the way) I still won´t use it.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Well, assuming "the most cool looking power" is still something moderately useful, and "most mechanically strong" isn't absolutely horrible, give me the former. I can speak from current game experience that I like to be effective, but I darn well better look good doing it! I have avoided powersets and individual where I don't like the way they look, even if they were highly effective. I also have an /Earth Dominator whom I love to spam Stone Spears with.
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Ahem.
As for a power that's Effective but so silly looking... my dual Pistoleer had to magic origin and claim theres "Casting" involved to justify it.
Piericing Rounds. Hands down.
I'm going to flip my gun in the air and push forward. Honestly it works better that way! You'll see.
Every time I see that it reminds me of my Dad back when I had an orginal DS and we'd enjoy a little Mario time. He'd move his arms sort of with the action/leaps etc and make such a concentrated face, grinworthy to anyone seeing him... (Before the sort of controller that that might have been actualy usefull for existed... you young ones might not know).
"Jump you @#$!%! JUMP!" I can see him now.
All that extra effort as if it could effect the little guy on screen.
So everytime my Pistoleer does that Piericing Rounds animation it reminds me of all that unessisary/doesn't make any difference anyway forceful effort that Dad used to try to employ vs Bowser. Warm fuzzy memories of the 90's and Dad.
"Die you $%#@! Die!" (shakes contoller)
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There's a problem with those attacks. The ones you specifically shown. You know what happens after them? The character moves forward to burn off the momentum. That's something that's limiting the CoH engine. That punch and keeping your footing would look silly, though I'd be happy to have the Devs prove me wrong. Maybe an alternate Crane Kick?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've used it, not because I expressly like the animation, but because it's the closest thing to a specific attack that the game SORELY MISSES. I mean, more specifically, a basic, strong, forward punch. Jin Saotome demonstrates:
[snip] |
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| I've often wondered if we can't give EVERY attack a few extra frames of animation that can be interrupted by another power, and reserve those few frames for returning to combat stance. That way, if you used an attack alone, it would flow from stance to animation to stance fluently, but if you chained attacks, they would flow into each other (with a bit of a skip) without going through the start-and-stop affair that is the current animations system. Not having to return to combat mode after EVERY attack would make most sets flow far better. |
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I'd be interested to see how many people who don't already have ice powers will actually take Cryonic Judgement.
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For my Ice Tanker, Cryonic Judgement is the single worst choice possible.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
Remember that argument we got in way back when, discussing the idea of powerset and/or AT respecs, when I said that my character should have the "Street Fighting" set when it came out because it would fit his concept better and I was only using MA as a stand-in, and you were like "No. Your character is Martial Arts, because the game says so" and I was like "NOO WAAY" and then Martial Arts got punches?
That was great. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes, I use that on my MA/Regen Stalker (as opposed to the squat Assassin's Fist), and it is probably the closest I can come to it, but it's hamstrung by being exclusive to Stalkers, and a precision attack, as well. I mentioned both Jin Saotome and the Incredible Hulk for a reason - I want an attack like this for a heavy fighter, such as one using Super Strength or Stone Melee.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
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You do have a point, however - the animation is not entirely absent from the game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Well, technically the alternate animation for Eagle's Claw was taken from an existing power: Stun (its also used by Impale). But what I don't like about it is that its *not* a basic, forward punch. Its actually an overhand throw, like a baseball pitch. In fact, the original animator must have been using a baseball pitch as the actual reference for the animation, because the animation is actually called "baseball_punch."
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In general, I find most of the old punching animations to be clunky, because very few feel like they have much weight behind them, Knockout Blow being the worst example.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not necessarily. I failed to find good examples from anime, but this is practically a trope in and of itself, and it rarely requires any specific movement of the character. Think of it as the typical Hong Kong kung fu movie strongman punch that ends exactly where it hits the other guy, with the other guy flying back. It's a straight punch delivered from a standing stance, not a running leaping punch.|
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
There's a problem with those attacks. The ones you specifically shown. You know what happens after them? The character moves forward to burn off the momentum. That's something that's limiting the CoH engine. That punch and keeping your footing would look silly, though I'd be happy to have the Devs prove me wrong. Maybe an alternate Crane Kick?
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I'm positive it can exist in this game, and look good at it, too. All we'd really need is a straight-arm punch directly forward, with the leading shoulder full forward and the stance weighted to the front, as well.
As I mentioned before, very few attack animations in City of Heroes feel like they have any weight behind them. Think of the couple of uppercuts we have: Cobra Strike alternative and Knockout Blow. Both of those are extended arm swings, as though the character is counting on the upward momentum of his fist to bring force of impact. Now contrast this with your typical Shoryken. Note how, with that, the character crouches, then uses the full force of his body to rise up and deliver a punch with his weight behind it and rooted into the ground. THAT conveys a forceful impact far more than special effects and giant explosions could.
About the only set of animations in the game that really have a feeling of force being them are the Sword/Axe/Mace family, simply because they feel like the character is either putting his back into them, or otherwise using the weight of the weapon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've always avoided MA in the past because I want more punches to go with the kicks.. and I thought 'hey, I can go check out the new punch animations like I've been meaning to'.
... I'm less than impressed with most of these.
Or another example, Storm Kick into Dragon's Tail. It's a lot of spinning but if your fighter is by any means acrobatic, it looks the part. Or Dragon's Tail > Cobra Strike (the uppercut animation). Looks more like a Shoryuken when it's coming from a crouch. Link it all together: SK > DT > EC > CS. Looks like your fighter is really getting into a fight.
While Stalker MA misses out on the superb looking DT which does take away a good deal of the awesome look, you get Fist of Annihilation which looks quite devastating. Coupled with a few of the punch animations and you really look strong when you punch a hole through a Zeus Titan.