Why is Base Construction the only unimproved aspect of CoH/CoV?
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-03-21 02:15 in Base Construction
I guess my real question is... over the past years this section of the forum has been inundated with all kinds of great ideas, but thus far NONE have been implemented? Have devs EVER said anything about upgrades to Bases? I'd like to know if there is hope.
Founder of The Obsidian Oath as Briarthorne
As far as I can tell from playing this game, there is little reason to hope for because SGs are not part of the "core" game if you will just like PvP and M/A. Becuase they are not integral to the game they will continue to go unloved because it is not paying the bills.
bases got a few new items like the vault and IO worktables as well as disabled pathing which enabled for easier stacking of items to do more creative base designs
in terms of actually adding new objects or functionality, not very much has been done
With that logic, since PvP isn't part of my gaming experience it should be dumped? There are many different aspects of the game and most have been enhanced in some way - just asking for SGs to get equal treatment. SGs are the ******* stepchild because they have been allowed to be so. Devs seem to have ways to get us to do lots of things (incarnate system got many playing past 50 that didn't, unified players so all looking for same TF each week). They could come up with Sg content that MAKES the SGs more integral to the game. They just haven't chosen to.
Not asking for a release just about bases. But there are so many small things they could do to help us out that could be added to each release. Seems like there are usually 5-15 features added/upgraded with each release - what if ONE of them was a base feature every few releases?
They need to do what they did with the TF's - add the content and give us incentive to play.
If there was a repeatable SG TF that added items to each units capacity each time it was completed, I GUARANTEE many SGs would make a habit of it.
Founder of The Obsidian Oath as Briarthorne
Because of the unlikelihood of this ever being uttered:
"I hear City of Heroes upgraded base building! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to enjoy the upgraded base mechanics!"
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Originally Posted by Transhade
As far as I can tell from playing this game, there is little reason to hope for because SGs are not part of the "core" game if you will just like PvP and M/A. Becuase they are not integral to the game they will continue to go unloved because it is not paying the bills.
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^ This. I honestly don't know why the bases have been the forgotten stepchild in the game. But I'd bet it's because It doesn't pay the bills. It isn't why anyone started playing and honestly, with all the additions they have done to make the teleporters in the bases almost obsolete, the base has just become a fancy closet.
But I still want them to fix my closet dangit!!!!!
I loved the abilities we got when they shut off the pathing. It allowed everyone to be even more creative than they already were. To see what has been done is honestly amazing and gave me inspiration to do some of the same. I started playing more and more in SG mode to get more prestige for my base. My desire to build my base up became a major reason to play the game (at a time I was a bit burned out on playing as well as lost SG mates to other games).
Maybe that is why it bothers me to see the apathy the dev's show towards the bases. My base was something in the game that kept me playing at a time it would have been easy to leave.
Bases are an Orphaned Feature of the game now.
The only meaningful way to improve SG Bases and the Base Editor is to start from scratch and rebuild everything from the tools on up. That's not a trivial investment of time, people and money. It would pull resources from almost every single department, which is also not trivial.
I think it's not a matter of "the Devs don't care" and more a matter of "in order to do it RIGHT requires a (literally!) monumental commitment" is the stumbling block here.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
You OBVIOUSLY haven't seen the rage-on PVP'ers have. Have you?
In short, base building got a small overhaul and price reduction a while back when they yanked raid pathing out. Sure, it wasn't anything CLOSE to what we wanted (or to the "All Your Base" expansion that got scrapped for being terribad). But it was still SOME base loving.
According to the PVP'ers, the same issue that we got some base loving, they were rectally assaulted with something vaguely resembling a California redwood and haven't been able to walk right in PVP ever since.
Not saying we shouldn't continue to make requests of the dev team. We should. But I don't honestly think we're going to get another look at bases AT LEAST until after they get the remainder of the Incarnate system squeezed out. And even then, I dunno. Like PVP, it's a niche system. And, like PVP, it's not truly "broken" in the current form. It may not work how we (or the devs) WANT it to work. But it's "good enough" for now and there are no apparent show-stopper bugs.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Actually, I think I remember the Devs talking about how they attempted this and wound up with something that wasn't substantially better than what we already had, and so, that development time went up in smoke.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
The only meaningful way to improve SG Bases and the Base Editor is to start from scratch and rebuild everything from the tools on up. That's not a trivial investment of time, people and money. It would pull resources from almost every single department, which is also not trivial.
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"I hear City of Heroes added Day Jobs! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to stay offline!"|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
"I hear City of Heroes upgraded base building! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to enjoy the upgraded base mechanics!"
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"I hear City of Heroes added Ouroboros! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to play content we already played 15 times with all our alts!"
"I hear City of Heroes added Ultra Mode! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to see my shadow in the new water!"
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Originally Posted by pixelforge
I guess my real question is... over the past years this section of the forum has been inundated with all kinds of great ideas, but thus far NONE have been implemented? Have devs EVER said anything about upgrades to Bases? I'd like to know if there is hope.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Because of the unlikelihood of this ever being uttered:
"I hear City of Heroes upgraded base building! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to enjoy the upgraded base mechanics!" |
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Originally Posted by Beber
"I hear City of Heroes added Day Jobs! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to stay offline!"
"I hear City of Heroes added Ouroboros! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to play content we already played 15 times with all our alts!" "I hear City of Heroes added Ultra Mode! I'm gonna get all my friends to join and pay them $15 a month to see my shadow in the new water!" |
Ouroboros was a way to combine new content with Flashbacks which leveraged old content. Ultra Mode was do or graphically die. Ouroboros and Ultra Mode are arguably essential to the survivability of the game.
However, I'm with you with Day Jobs... meh. But I doubt the people who code day jobs are the base building coders.
A base upgrade would have to be a really big upgrade to warrant the attention of the coders. And as I mentioned above, they did try but failed to make it better.
Actually, I don't think any of the coders who worked on bases previously are working at Paragon anymore, so, you have the huge hurdle of coders learning how the old code was put together before they can do anything new.
Unless a re-try at upgrading bases is linked to the revenue to make it happen, as in a Super Booster: Super Bases 2.0!, I doubt there will ever be any significant revisiting of bases.
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I don't look at Day Jobs as an incentive to stay logged off. I look at it as an incentive to alt more frequently.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
However, I'm with you with Day Jobs... meh. But I doubt the people who code day jobs are the base building coders.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Three words: NO MORE EMOTES!
I want a list of the top 50 emotes. Now, add up all the time that went into coding all of the emotes beyond the best 50. Now explain to me how being able to turn into a pumpkin every few seconds is better than being able to make my SG base better.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
I bet that key people involved in base building coding are no longer there, making it difficult to easily update base construction.
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I'd buy this. And I am sure others would as well. I sure that there is enough unused objects that are already in game that could be stuffed a booster pack for a base add-on that I'd plunk down the cash for it. However, this wouldn't be possible because this would need to be coded in and it then would break something else.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Unless a re-try at upgrading bases is linked to the revenue to make it happen, as in a Super Booster: Super Bases 2.0!, I doubt there will ever be any significant revisiting of bases.
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Hyperstrike is right. The bases aren't broke, there just not what we all want bases to be. And bases are also a small part of this game, therefore, bases will not be looked at for some time. And haven't been for well over a year. Oh I am sure there has been some chatter amongst the Dev's about bases. But nothing that would be significant.
I could wish for the Base Super Booster. To be able to see a multi leveled base without 2 1/2 foot tall kick panels, and get my latest mission fresh from my full length floor to ceiling super computer. Handed to me by my robotic npc butler while I drop off my salvage into my expanded storage area. I'd like to see this. But I fear that if something like this happens, it won't happen till a newer version of COH is brought to life.
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One reason why this won't happen.|
Originally Posted by unjust
I could wish for the Base Super Booster.
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Bases are, ostensibly a COMMUNITY resource. Adding all sorts of *schwing!* in there for a booster? How do people who don't use the booster use the stuff? How do they perceive this stuff if they can't use it? If one guy buys it is it good for everyone in the SG? Or do you have people without it become second class citizens?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I'd think that the booster would be for base designers and everyone could use the results.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
One reason why this won't happen.
Bases are, ostensibly a COMMUNITY resource. Adding all sorts of *schwing!* in there for a booster? How do people who don't use the booster use the stuff? How do they perceive this stuff if they can't use it? If one guy buys it is it good for everyone in the SG? Or do you have people without it become second class citizens? |
Just like custom costume parts can be seen by every player but only the purchaser can put it on their toon.
I think one of the fundamental flaws of the base building editor is the fact that is can only be used by a small portion of the player base.
Yes, anyone can make a one man SG and earn prestige slowly over time. But realistically this is a feature that is enjoyed by only the SG elites. I have to wonder how many people have never even opened the base editor?
Had they made this feature secret base / lair / whatever. And made it so that everyone got there own. Then it might be different. You'd have a higher population of game players that actually care about this feature.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
I'd think that the booster would be for base designers and everyone could use the results.
Just like custom costume parts can be seen by every player but only the purchaser can put it on their toon. |
Thing is, unlike something with more general appeal, like costumes, etc, I don't see this selling well to other than the small community of base builders. Not that I'd say "F*** NO!" were it offered!
Now if we had WOW's subscribership, and they could simply throw cash at silly stuff like a pack for custom butt tattoos that never get seen because they're ALWAYS covered by costume parts, I could see them doing something like this.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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How weird you would say this, because I'm pretty sure Pum already has a custom butt tattoo.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Now if we had WOW's subscribership, and they could simply throw cash at silly stuff like a pack for custom butt tattoos that never get seen because they're ALWAYS covered by costume parts, I could see them doing something like this.
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Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
@vanda1 and @nakoa2
Doesn't everyone have a custom butt tattoo?
I have been thinking things over about base construction, AE and PvP.
In order to get more use out of things the devs should tie them all in so they can be complementary instead of silos.
IOW, base building should be available as maps in AE so you can make an entirely custom map for a mission or arena, and that you can PvP inside AE as well.
That's all I've got to say about base building.
To answer the original question....
The Devs want to know why/how investing resources into improving the base/building feature is good for the overall health of the game.
How will improving bases bring in more customers?
How will improvements benefit current players (not just builders)?
They've asked us to convince them.
Whining is not convincing.
Begging is not convincing.
Ranting is not convincing.
"Because we want" is not convincing.
When you make suggestions/requests, try to keep these things in mind.
It's hard, believe me I know, because frustration can be so overwhelming.
Lordy, how I know it.
But try.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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Man
The devs are asking questions like suits!!! Tee shirt and sweater wearing suits, but suits non the less. Ok ok, No whining.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
To answer the original question
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How will improving bases bring in more customers? How will improvements benefit current players (not just builders)? . |
Well, if we could make them more flashy and more of an individual atmosphere so they don't all feel like cookie cutter bases. We base builders have done this to a part, but could be helped much more.
Revamp the mission computer and add missions a group of teammates and maybe SG specific missions with SG specific rewards, such as placeable trophies and souvenirs. The mission writing has much improved in the last two years .
Add SG specific Temp powers. Something like"FLANKING TEAMMATE" accessed thru a training room in the SG. I could come up with more, but I'm just trying to point something out. This could be a HUGE improvement.
As for our forgotten brothers, the PVP'ers, Re-institute a base raiding system that allows for specific loot that could be used to increase a persons pvp ability. maybe even pvp specific temp powers.
I just throwing these against the wall to see if anything sticks. every here has to have more ideas. Try and keep those two questions in mind and I am sure we can make yet Another list. Hopefully this one will get attention.
In all honesty for me at least I think the bases are a lost cause at this point. They still have a minor roll in COH. But as the game moves on, the base system lags behind farther and farther. All I ask is that what ever the DEV's decide to do on bases, they give us a some word. Anything, even bad news is still news. I hate the feeling of being in the dark.
Here's an "Easy Gimmie" that requires no new content that would be an upgrade to Base capabilities.
We have an item called a Mission Computer. It does basically ONE THING ... the Cathedral of Pain.
We have the Pillar of Ice and Flame. It basically enables Flashback Missions.
We have Tip Missions. These are obtained through drops, but the only Tip Missions available to you are the ones which are Level Appropriate to you.
Combine these three functions ... into the Mission Computer.
Allow people to do Flashback Tip Missions so as to permit them to auto-exemp (ala Flashback) to Tip Missions of lower levels ... using the (nigh useless) Mission Computer.
No "new" content need be created for this, other than a UI element which allows players to select a Flashback Tip to run, and specifies the Level Range of that Tip Mission (see Pillar of Ice and Flame UI for how to do this). This system could also allow Flashback Morality Missions to be selected when 10/10 Alignment Missions (of any Level) have been completed.
S imple
E asy
E ffective
... not being done ... 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Sure this is not the first semi-gripe of it's kind.
I KNOW this section should have given the DEVs lots of ideas of ways to improve the game. I love CoH/CoV, but with the other superhero MMO's with free options or stellar A-List NPCs, CoH/CoV needs to really embrace all aspects of what makes it a great game. Not saying I first to have ANY of these ideas - I'm sure many have been wanted for a long time.
One of these aspects is the SG Bases. While the existing base editor is amazing, some upgrades are long overdue and would really make the supergroup leads happy.
SG members want MORE storage!!! #1 gripe.
Since base plot size (for some reason) does NOT increase maximum's for storage OR tables (though it should - are we just paying for the extra space?) how about using the desire to expand to motivate MORE content play - same way u using incarnate system? Give us goals and we strive for them.
multiple new SG TFs? with rewards such as:
recipe box: SG recipe storage!!!!
a series of upgrades expansions to CAPACITY of existing salvage storage units (perhaps multiple arcs of increasing difficulty - each adding 10 items to capacity of each storage unit).
upgrades to NUMBER of available units (making it in relation to plot size) - team find arcane items or TARDIS-type tech allowing expansion of storage. Makes SG's happy. Where is downside? What is the harm in rewarding the backbone of your game?
SGs work together and increase player efficiency and enjoyment - I'm loving the incarnate releases - and I know they must be keeping you VERY busy. But PLEASE don't forget what makes CoH/CoV different from the emulators. You were first. Keep adapting. Keep expanding. Keep upgrading.
Personally I loving incarnate so dying to see what planned for next 2 - 3 releases. but after/during that would really like to see the first real upgrade to the Base Edit system. Maybe make it a difficult enough TF that it requires Incarnates?
And since I on a roll... how about making base editors lives easier?
1. are the hoops we have to go through to stack items REALLY necessary? Can't you make ALL desks/tables/blocks stackable instead of forcing us to stack safes and add floor temporary planes?
2. 45 degree angle rotation (instead of 90)?
3. railing objects (sure lots of work and some broken lamps work for straight railing. but what about angled ones for stairs/ramps)?
I love this game - played CoH since before CoV. I have worked hard on VG (created day 1 of CoV and in top 100) and I'd like to be able to provide the kind of base I'm being asked to create.
Don't abandon one of the most overlooked, but powerful aspects of the game. Getting us to play is a goal. but if the bases are more convenient, interesting and functional it can only help to hook the new players. It would be nice to feel heard.
Founder of The Obsidian Oath as Briarthorne