Why is Base Construction the only unimproved aspect of CoH/CoV?


all_hell

 

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Originally Posted by BlueTurbo View Post
I feel it would be nice to see a red name post here. To at least say hi, and good job.
We had that, didn't help.

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Originally Posted by BlueTurbo View Post
All the nicely worded lists and easy to do ideas don't mean a thing if they don't have the attention of someone who can bring it up in a meeting.
That is being worked on.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
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All the nicely worded lists and easy to do ideas don't mean a thing if they don't have the

attention of someone who can bring it up in a meeting.
That is being worked on.
well It would be nice to hear SOMETHING about it. Not hearing anything at all causes rampant speculation, Like what is happening here.


 

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Originally Posted by unjust View Post
well It would be nice to hear SOMETHING about it. Not hearing anything at all causes rampant speculation, Like what is happening here.
Understandable.
It is being worked on.
But until there are results...
Part of the work entails having these kinds of discussions.

Like I mentioned earlier:
We need to provide good, solid, unemotional reasoning for the devs to justify spending the resources.

That's part of the work.

.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
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YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by unjust View Post
well It would be nice to hear SOMETHING about it. Not hearing anything at all causes rampant speculation, Like what is happening here.
Base Committee Forming???

I can tell you from my time with the City Scoop, working with the Community Reps, and a couple of betas the following is happening:

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Originally Posted by BlueTurbo View Post
All the nicely worded lists and easy to do ideas don't mean a thing if they don't have the attention of someone who can bring it up in a meeting.
Players are giving the information to the community reps who are bringing it up in the meetings. So, yes, this is being done. Players do have the attention of someone who can bring the problems to the developers.

On the flip side, I have to ask everyone what they are willing to do to make bases more popular?
  • Do you have a contest idea that could attract more players to base building?
  • Would you open base construction to more players?
  • How about sharing a tip that you found useful while base building?
  • Would you be willing to host tours of your base?
  • Can you say how many of your in game friends would make a personal lair?
  • Would seeing new textures for floors/walls/ceilings show that the developers are working on bases or would that just get you more upset that some other aspect of bases was ignored?
A last thought as I'm typing this: While players would like the developers to acknowledge what players see wrong with bases, can you say what was "right" about bases? I'd imagine that they are getting sick and tired of "this is wrong" and would like some of "this is what you did right".




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Originally Posted by American_Angel View Post
What is the difference between bringing in new customers and preventing the existing customers from leaving the game?

If one new customer comes in, and one old one leaves, how are the Devs making a profit?

To be honest, my SG is the only reason I still play this game. It's inactive, but as the founder, I work on the base all the time, trying new things whenever I get inspired.

...None of the promising features and content is enough to keep my interest. ...In fact, the only time I usually play a toon is when a friend happens to log on. Otherwise I either base build or log off.

Already, I have been trying new games out, looking for one I like...on I enjoy. Before, if I didn't have the money to renew on time, I would scramble to get it. Not I have 2-3 games installed that give me the chance to play online for free.

My love of this game has been slowly dying, and the reason for that is the lack of attention the devs give to the part I enjoy most. Base Building.
While I don't necessarily agree with your entire post, I think these are some fair points.
Without turning this into a whinefest (not convincing!), I'd like to know who else feels similarly.
Is base building truly your primary interest in this game?

ETA:
And what Snow Globe said. Positive thinking will help.


.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
The BIG consolidated LIST for BASE LUV
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV

 

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Originally Posted by Impish Kat View Post
Is base building truly your primary interest in this game?
For me? No. No it isn't.



My primary interest in this game is the Sociability aspect. Put simply ... being able to have fun playing with others.

That said ... Base Building *can* be one of the components of a truly enjoyable social interaction with other players, and not just the members of your own SG.

And Base Building is one of the few activities, in any game, which is what you make of it. If you invest a lot of time and effort in doing it ... it *shows* ... and it shows to anyone you show it to ... much like costume design for our in-game avatars. By the same token, the creative *power* of costume design has absolutely NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on "how" the game plays. Costume design for your avatar has absolutely ZERO game mechanical effects of any kind ... and yet ... it has been, and quite probably always will be, one of the most obvious and intuitively easy to grasp aspects of the game which even non-players can appreciate nigh instantly. If everyone's avatar had an appearance dictated by (in the context of CoH) your Powers Chosen, and the slotting of those Powers ... leaving no room for individual creative expression on the order of what we actually have ... we'd wind up with a game full of cookie-cutter Heroes and Villains, and it would be BORING!

Costume pieces for our avatars has "no effect" on the game at all ... other than the Sociability aspect ... and just look at the lengths that people go to FOR THAT aspect of the game! Our costume designs are what make our characters UNIQUE ... and SPECIAL. Our costume designs are tightly bound with our very IDENTITIES as Heroes and Villains! Our appearance makes us who we are ... and is one of the strongest draws this game has.



The same *COULD* be true with SG Bases ... Personal Housing, if you will ... if the Dev Team were ever given the resources, and the green light, to do with it what it really deserves! And unlike costume pieces for our avatars, there is a clear and obvious synergy waiting in the wings, ready and ripe for the exploitation ... if the Dev Team were able to DO IT RIGHT.

I'm talking about User Created Content not only for SG Bases, but also for AE Maps. Use a common editor for the creation of both, and CoH will be on its way to creating a "killer app" for User Created Content.



So don't just think in terms of SG Bases and Base Design in isolation. Think of SG Bases, Base Design and what else on top of that ... and you'll be looking in the right direction.



End of Line


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

Posted

+1 to EXACTLY what Rediynne just said. If it went for the Individuality that can be done with the CC then I don't think I would have played this game for over a year. The ability to be creative with your character has made certain characters shine for me that would have floundered not for that. the Individuality that the bases have offered is like that; to an extent.

Imagine if, that the bases all looked the same, every room you placed of that type look like every other of that type?. Individuality is what made bases what they are. You'd never see base tours or or anyone asking to see your base. There'd be no reason.

Bases are a great social aspect to this game that hasn't really been explored. First off bases were meant to be used by Sg for Interaction with you SG mates. This never panned out the way the dev's wanted. The major problem was the COP trial didn't work as intended, Another was SG raids that never even got off the ground. Some would certainly have to do with the other.The Personal room Idea may have merit, and if attached to bases with a revamped editor would do worlds of good for bringing existing players into bases and using its new editor.


 

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Originally Posted by Fusion_7 View Post
There probably needs to be some kind of integration within the game with bases playing a vital part on some missions, TF and such. Maybe when they first implemented bases, they had a lot more in mind for their uses. But, as others have said, it is time for an improvement and to rethink bases.
I'm thinking a revamped take on the Items of Power.

unlockable and craftable base items that provide a buff to anyone in the sg as long as they are a member, be it a recovery boost, regen boost, recharge reduction, you get the idea.

That would be one heck of an incentive to join a sg/vg... or start your own...


Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

I think the root problem is this: Any meaningful improvements to bases are not warranted based on the small number of players that would use the feature. Those resources can be better used on more widespread and attractive features that will be used by more players.

However, I think there is a value in significantly improving the Bases feature because it is a rare (unique?) feature in the MMO space and can be leveraged as a feature that defines and distinguishes City from its competitors. Before that can happen, though, the root problem above must be solved.

I think there are, therefore, several targets that could be identified (listed here in what I feel is the order of importance):

1. Make base building accessible to all players without negatively impacting the role of supergroups.

2. Make the base building tools user friendly, intuitive and robust.

3. Make the base building tool feature-rich and fun.

You could probably tack on a few other goals to the list, but those (I think) are the big three. Here are my proposed solutions to those three.

1. Develop functionality that allows Supergroup leaders to designate authorized base editors by room, or wing - thus giving individual SG members an option to design their own portions of the base.

Develop private apartments and "lairs" which can be built by and for individual players, allowing these to be accessed both outside of SG bases and from inside the SG base (adding the appearance of being a separate section of the base). To limit negative impact on the role of SG's, these personal lairs should have limited functionality (e.g. less storage space, fewer or no teleporters, no empowerment buff stations, etc).

Develop functionality within the Mission Architect system allowing use of the base building tool for designing custom mission maps.

Those three items should create a base building solution which will be available to all players, would not negatively impact the role of SG's, and has the added benefit of making a significant improvement on the other unique feature of this MMO; player created mission content.

2. This is the hard part for me to define. I don't pretend to know anything about how you develop these tools. I can only provide examples of what I would like to see, most of which have already been detailed elsewhere in greater detail. Some quick examples include the xyz axis tool, ability to create doors and hallways of whatever size you want, remove restrictions on which items can be placed in which rooms and remove room types (have instead only room sizes). There's a lot more but it's too much to go into here.

3. Again, there are tons of lists of features we'd like to see. Far too many to list again here. But in keeping with the idea of increasing the user numbers for bases, the most important features I think are those which add more functionality. Examples include a market interface, NPC's, ability to move between coalition bases and personal lairs without zoning out and back in, ability to create signs and notices within the base to leave messages for SG mates, etc.

I don't pretend to know what kind of resources these ideas would take, or if they are even technically possible. At the very least, I know it would not be easy. Maybe it's already been proposed, investigated, and deemed too costly. But those are the things I think need to happen, and I think if they did happen that it would make base building into what it always should have been: a defining feature of this game.

Anything less than that and I don't think you overcome the core problem and thus can't justify the resources.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
I think the root problem is this: Any meaningful improvements to bases are not warranted based on the small number of players that would use the feature. Those resources can be better used on more widespread and attractive features that will be used by more players.
People keep saying this, or something similar.

How many players are in Super Groups?

Perhaps Base Building isn't used by many, but the awkwardness of the current system is as much to blame as anything else. Fix the Base editing system and more people would use it. More to the point, if you fix Bases so as to make them more useful/fun in the game and everyone who is a member of a Super Group gets the benefit. Or in the very least, a Quality of Life improvement.


"SARS, Bird Flue, 9/11, Anthrax in the Mail, Mad Cow Disease. Pope John Paul didn't die, he preboarded." - Christopher Titus "5th Annual End of the World Tour"

 

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Originally Posted by Roughtrade View Post
Perhaps Base Building isn't used by many, but the awkwardness of the current system is as much to blame as anything else. Fix the Base editing system and more people would use it.
That's the point of what I posted above - get more people to actively use it by making it a better feature (in points 2 and 3) and one that CAN be used by more people (in point 1).

Quote:
More to the point, if you fix Bases so as to make them more useful/fun in the game and everyone who is a member of a Super Group gets the benefit. Or in the very least, a Quality of Life improvement.
That is true, but an improvement isn't going to attract players or entice current players to continue playing if it is not a feature they are able to actively use. NCSoft and Paragon must approach it from a Return on Investment point of view - if they put in X amount of time/energy/money to improving bases, then how much money is going to come back to them as a direct result of that?

In that context, I don't think saying "only one or two sg members can use it, but everyone in the sg can enjoy the fruits of the base builders' labors" is enough to warrant that time/energy/money.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
One reason why this won't happen.

Bases are, ostensibly a COMMUNITY resource. Adding all sorts of *schwing!* in there for a booster? How do people who don't use the booster use the stuff? How do they perceive this stuff if they can't use it? If one guy buys it is it good for everyone in the SG? Or do you have people without it become second class citizens?
What if one part of the booster was the ability to have your own room in your current SGs base?
And another part would be to allow for a demi-base of sorts for toon w/o a SG, perhaps with some sort of limited storage capacity, and with some other perks similar to current bases but lesser ones.


 

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Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
That's the point of what I posted above - get more people to actively use it by making it a better feature (in points 2 and 3) and one that CAN be used by more people (in point 1).
My point is we need to quit saying 'only a few people benefit' because then we are advertising a false premise. Every time someone who supports bases says "I know it will only benefit a few of us" they are reinforcing the idea that this is a niche community. Super Groups are a big part of the game. A huge chunk of the Player Base participates in Super Groups. Guilds (as other MMOs call them) are integral to any MMO. Bases should be a major part of any Super Group. People over on WoW are begging for some sort of 'Guild Hall' set up to gather at. Bases could be a major selling point of CoX if they were implemented better.

One step we need to make in order to get the improvements we want is to change the perception that somehow it's only for a minor part of the Player Base on CoX. The first step of doing that is for us ourselves to stop considering this as an issue which only effects a small fraction of the Player Base.

So my point. Every time someone starts out their post/premise/idea with "I know only a small part of the community will benefit but..." they are shooting themselves in the foot.


"SARS, Bird Flue, 9/11, Anthrax in the Mail, Mad Cow Disease. Pope John Paul didn't die, he preboarded." - Christopher Titus "5th Annual End of the World Tour"

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Roughtrade View Post
One step we need to make in order to get the improvements we want is to change the perception that somehow it's only for a minor part of the Player Base on CoX. The first step of doing that is for us ourselves to stop considering this as an issue which only effects a small fraction of the Player Base.

So my point. Every time someone starts out their post/premise/idea with "I know only a small part of the community will benefit but..." they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Sadly, the numbers don't lie.

How many people in your group are base builders? I can say that in a group that is now down to 15, only 2 are. Before, when we had 30 members, the number was double that in my group: 4 players.

The numbers get worse for large groups, where it might be 3-4 of 150 characters (possibly only one player) allowed to edit bases. Does that show "mass appeal"?




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Does that show "mass appeal"?
No ... that shows the design flaw of having a One Size Fits All solution towards awarding Edit rights and privileges. It's the same problem (more or less) as having Salvage Racks, Enhancement Tables and Inspiration Storage with no security settings on them individually. It's the flaw of a GLOBAL permission tied directly to SG Rank, with no fine tuning possible.

*IF* the Edit Permission were something granted by the same User Interface used for Storage Racks on a Room by Room basis ... then the "mass appeal" of base building would grow by leaps and bounds. Rather than "risking everything" by granting permission to edit ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in an SG base by a Global Permission ... instead you could designate *some* rooms as "sandbox rooms" where people could experiment and LEARN how to use the Editor without risking the entire Base being given over to a Griefer.

The Mass Appeal of Base Editing is THERE ... it's just that the security system to preserve that which should not be destroyed is totally inadequate to the task of offering reassurance to people who "control" the editing of Bases now.


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

Posted

My first assumption is that the majority of the player base are a member of a group, hero or villain, and that group has a base. So, any changes to the base system will affect, in some way, the majority of players.

Bases currently offers storage, crafting, transport and a central meeting place. Before bases, players would have to travel to different areas to accomplish what can now be done inside the base. By adding to the functionality of a base, I believe bases can again see the kind of traffic that was around when they were first introduced. Adding an interface to the market, tailor or trainers would be, in my opinion,the next logical step in bringing players back into their base.

When players start spending more time in the base then they will care what it looks like, and possibly start to ask for some of the more decorative items to be added to the editor.


 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Sadly, the numbers don't lie.

How many people in your group are base builders? I can say that in a group that is now down to 15, only 2 are. Before, when we had 30 members, the number was double that in my group: 4 players.

The numbers get worse for large groups, where it might be 3-4 of 150 characters (possibly only one player) allowed to edit bases. Does that show "mass appeal"?
Well...if you factor in the number of peeps with Solo SG's the percentage of Base Builders would be higher than these figures assume. However, I believe that even with that we still represent a small percentage of the playerbase.

So in answer to the question, It does not show Mass Appeal.

If you make suggestions from a decorative standpoint, You are only adding things the Base Editor(s) can use, but that the group as a whole can enjoy when they enter and look around the Base. But with the extremely low traffic in Bases being what it is, these things will likely go unseen by most SG Members unless announced. Then they will go in, look around, Say cool, and continue not going to the Base.

Suggestions made around additional Base Functionality have the potential to draw SG Members back to using the Base, and increase the traffic in the Base.

But neither type of suggestions will draw new players to the game, and increase the gameplay of the playerbase as a whole.

Keeping Impish Kat's two questions we should ask when making suggestions in mind, The only things that would actually revive Bases, and warrant work from the Dev team in this area would be to include the Bases, Base Editor, or both in some kind of tie in to future Content that would be accessible to the playerbase as a whole.

Tying Bases into AE in some way could work in that direction, but there are problems with that also. If it were set up so that you can make SG Specific Story Arcs accessible from the Base, you are still only catering to the percentage of the playerbase that is in a SG.

If you were to Integrate the Editor into AE for custom Maps, they would have to give us the ability to set Mob Spawn Points in these maps. If I remember correctly, during the whole AE/Farming Forum War, one of the Devs specifically stated that this would never happen. The reasoning was that it would make creating Farming Missions way to easy, and be exploited.

I'm at a loss as to what you could suggest that would meet the two requirements where Bases are concerned.

IMHO

Black


Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
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Posted

If the booster pack allowed for some sort of private base--perhaps with some limited storage—maybe one salvage and one enhancement rack or something—limited transporter access—maybe one or two TPs—and then maybe a choice of either a med bay or empowerment station, it would open the base experience up to a very wide range of players.

It would help if these private bases were accessible from the larger SG bases so that members of VGs wouldn't miss out on the benefits. Instead of actually adding it to the base, it may be simpler and cleaner to put only an entrance to all the private rooms in a VG base. You would click on the entrance to the private bases and then be able to choose which one you were going to enter—your own or one of your team mates or one of you VG mates.


 

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Originally Posted by BlueTurbo View Post
My first assumption is that the majority of the player base are a member of a group, hero or villain, and that group has a base. So, any changes to the base system will affect, in some way, the majority of players. ...
This is pretty much my take on it. I don't have hard numbers of course, but it seems like 7 out of 10 characters I see are in a supergroup. And while it's true that very few of them have editing privileges, an improved editor will have a positive impact on everyone who uses the base. Not to mention that adding functionality will improve things for everyone in the group.


 

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Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
No ... that shows the design flaw of having a One Size Fits All solution towards awarding Edit rights and privileges. It's the same problem (more or less) as having Salvage Racks, Enhancement Tables and Inspiration Storage with no security settings on them individually. It's the flaw of a GLOBAL permission tied directly to SG Rank, with no fine tuning possible.

*IF* the Edit Permission were something granted by the same User Interface used for Storage Racks on a Room by Room basis ... then the "mass appeal" of base building would grow by leaps and bounds. Rather than "risking everything" by granting permission to edit ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in an SG base by a Global Permission ... instead you could designate *some* rooms as "sandbox rooms" where people could experiment and LEARN how to use the Editor without risking the entire Base being given over to a Griefer.

The Mass Appeal of Base Editing is THERE ... it's just that the security system to preserve that which should not be destroyed is totally inadequate to the task of offering reassurance to people who "control" the editing of Bases now.
That is a great idea and one I've not seen. It doesn't cause data storage problems of individual lairs (one of the reasons that I've heard that the developers are against them) and it provides a reason for people to assemble in groups in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTurbo View Post
Bases currently offers storage, crafting, transport and a central meeting place. Before bases, players would have to travel to different areas to accomplish what can now be done inside the base. By adding to the functionality of a base, I believe bases can again see the kind of traffic that was around when they were first introduced. Adding an interface to the market, tailor or trainers would be, in my opinion,the next logical step in bringing players back into their base.

When players start spending more time in the base then they will care what it looks like, and possibly start to ask for some of the more decorative items to be added to the editor.
This has been suggested many times before, but it wouldn't hurt to bring it up again.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
That is a great idea and one I've not seen. It doesn't cause data storage problems of individual lairs (one of the reasons that I've heard that the developers are against them) and it provides a reason for people to assemble in groups in the first place.
Please tell me you're joking. Please. I simply *can't* be the first person to wish it was possible to assign Base Edit access privileges on a Room by Room basis, using the exact same model as what we (now) have for Storage Racks.


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
Please tell me you're joking. Please. I simply *can't* be the first person to wish it was possible to assign Base Edit access privileges on a Room by Room basis, using the exact same model as what we (now) have for Storage Racks.
No, not quite...

It's been put forward before, but the hang-up has been that people were saying that (room) edit permissions should be based on globals, which, as I understand it, would be tricky to implement. You have, however, introduced the comparison to the way salvage permissions are now done, which is by SG rank. That is a slightly new spin.

Setting edit permissions for every type of room that currently exists might be a little ambitious, but if there was a new room type specifically set up with editable permission settings.... that way, the permission settings need only be attached to one type of room... That could be a precursor to "private apartments".

.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
The BIG consolidated LIST for BASE LUV
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impish Kat View Post
Setting edit permissions for every type of room that currently exists might be a little ambitious, but if there was a new room type specifically set up with editable permission settings.... that way, the permission settings need only be attached to one type of room... That could be a precursor to "private apartments".

.
I like this idea as well. But there are two buttons that would have to be removed from the Base Editor for such a room as well. Those being the "Apply Room Style to Base" button, and the "Apply to Base" (Under Room Section). Also, there is the "Apply Colors to Base" Button.

It would have to be set up where these buttons do not exist in the Editor for the New Permission based Room. But for the Editor with permission to edit the entire Base, these Buttons can be quite useful, so removing them completely from the Editor would be a bad move.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Strike View Post
I like this idea as well. But there are two buttons that would have to be removed from the Base Editor for such a room as well. Those being the "Apply Room Style to Base" button, and the "Apply to Base" (Under Room Section). Also, there is the "Apply Colors to Base" Button.

It would have to be set up where these buttons do not exist in the Editor for the New Permission based Room. But for the Editor with permission to edit the entire Base, these Buttons can be quite useful, so removing them completely from the Editor would be a bad move.
*envisions the havoc*


lol
I hear ya

.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
The BIG consolidated LIST for BASE LUV
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impish Kat View Post
To answer the original question....

The Devs want to know why/how investing resources into improving the base/building feature is good for the overall health of the game.

How will improving bases bring in more customers?
How will improvements benefit current players (not just builders)?

They've asked us to convince them.
Whining is not convincing.
Begging is not convincing.
Ranting is not convincing.
"Because we want" is not convincing.

When you make suggestions/requests, try to keep these things in mind.
It's hard, believe me I know, because frustration can be so overwhelming.
Lordy, how I know it.

But try.

.
Some things help bring in new consumers and some things help retain them. Base improvement would definitely be a perk towards retention -- the real problem is that it might be a tad late to justify it.


@Texarkana
@Thexder