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Hellboy might become iconic in the long run. I don't have a crystal ball. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Would Hellboy make the cut? Mignola created an immediately recognizable character design with an unusual origin and entaining adventures. Between blockbuster movies in 2004 and 2008, the character has earned over $250M from the box office alone. His collected comics titles have hit the New York Times's bestseller list. His t-shirt and toy tie-in revenue, however, are doubtless well below Iron Man, who easily won out when the two had head-to-head summer movies.
Are we just going to have to wait and judge by staying power? |
But I think part of the reason we generally agree characters like Superman and Batman are iconic is because they've been in our popular culture for well over 70 years now. They've been around so long that effectively -everyone- knows who they are. Thus the adjective "iconic".
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Doc Savage movie was a dud due to the director sticking the the idea of camp humor and for losing funding while in production. They couldn't even finish the sound track and had use that patriotic song instead. Shane Black is tapped to direct a new Doc Savage movie set in the 30's with the his Fab Five friends. Here's hoping. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If we're now factoring in "popular cultural recognition" for a character's qualifications for iconic status, then Venom, as the weak link in the Spider-Man movie franchise, gets demoted in the same fashion as film-flops Spawn, Judge Dredd, Tank Girl, or the evidently unadaptable Punisher (whose movie career has a whopping three strikes against the character).
On the other hand, one could argue that mainstream recognition is overrated, especially if Hollywood's imprimatur is required. Doc Savage and the Shadow, both iconic pulp heroes, bombed at the box office, but their premiere status is indisputable. Certainly fans recognize them without prompting. After a disastrous cameo in the Wolverine movie (which was, incidentally, held afloat only by Hugh Jackman's star power, not the character), Deadpool's movie fortunes look increasinly dim as once-favored leading man Ryan Reynolds devotes himself to Green Lantern. The odds of his breaking through are fairly low at this point. If pop culture penetration is the defining factor for iconic comics heroes, i.e. blockbuster movies, then Pixar's The Incredibles, which got their comic book after their movie, should definitely be considered iconic. |
The Shadow: script could have better and Baldwin was not my first choice for the part.
The Wolverine movie.....oh ick.
Still I'd say that the Shadow is an icon and due to all his massive over exposure over the years, so is Wolverine.
Doc Savage however seems to have receded from the minds of many and I was glad that he got a new comic series of late. Here's hoping that stirs up the interest in this character. Also the First Wave issue that had Doc Savage meet Batman was interesting as the Doc is one of the few characters I can think of that could take down Batman in a fight.
Still the two characters are similar: both lost their fathers, both trained from a young age: one to be an adventurer and the other a crime fighter, both have access to a vast supply of wealth, both are extremely intelligent in just about every field of science and combat.
One would think the Doc would be as remembered as Batman, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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A character like Doc Savage might be as old as Batman, be as well developed and even have a big fan base. But as you point out clearly Batman has "something extra" that Doc Savage doesn't. Whatever makes Batman "more remembered" than Doc is what makes him iconic. |
Originally Posted by Nericus
One would think the Doc would be as remembered as Batman, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Likely due to how many comics have been published over the years, how many "Bat" series are currently running, and how he is essentially the Bat-deity of the DCU |
Originally Posted by Lothic
A character like Doc Savage might be as old as Batman, be as well developed and even have a big fan base. But as you point out clearly Batman has "something extra" that Doc Savage doesn't. Whatever makes Batman "more remembered" than Doc is what makes him iconic.
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The Doc hasn't had quite that level of exposure.
I asked a few other people, non-fans, of comic book characters they have heard of:
The old standards: Superman, Batman (& Robin), Spider-man. Hulk, Aquaman and Iron Man have had recent appearances in the media, and they knew about them. Wonder Woman, mostly due to the old TV series and her appearance on some cartoon shows. Fantastic Four were known by a few. One remembered Daredevil and Ghost Rider from the films.
Hellboy was known by a few. One person remembered the Judge Dredd film and the Blade movies, but did not realize they were from comics. And one other that hasn't been mentioned in this thread -- The Tick. Several people remembered the Tick from the cartoon show. And, importantly, they would recognize The Tick as the big blue guy with antennae.
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I would like to think Thor had been iconic before the movie this year but I also know he has usually been tagged as "the guy Marvel pits someone against when they want to establish how powerful a character is"
He is still used that way (see Red Hulk) but had also had some great moments since JMS and Coipel relaunched the book....although Fraction's run is very "meh" to me...
I know the character has been around a long time but I also think alot of comic fans (outside of those who rwad his book) always seen him as more of a supporting character...the movie may change that...
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Part of the problem, I think, is that nobody's putting out the effort to MAKE a new iconic character.
To make a new icon, you need more than just a solid character concept and visual. You need to give him over to writers that can use him/her well. You need video and movie exposure. You need toys, and posters. You need to reign in other writers that want the new guy to show up in their comic, but only to mess with him.
Anything less than a solid idea with the entire company (and more) behind it will just fade into the background.
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Hm. My definition of 'Iconic' might differ from some others, but for me it's who might come up if you asked a normal person to name a super hero/villain, how likely would they be to bring up the name? A step down from this are 'known' characters, likely would to be recognized if shown to an average person.
Yes, most people when asked to name a super hero/villain will say Superman, batman, Joker, Hulk, etc. Wolverine I'd put in this list easily. Storm/Cyclops, maybe. More recent characters would hit the 'known' litmus, but not be in the first. Venom, Harley Quinn, (ironically more tv than comic based) Bane, and Spawn might work. Deadpool I almost think of, but he's still more limited to the comic reader base.
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I'm sure you could spend lots of money to generate spin for a character and keep pushing that character in every media direction possible for years. But even if that -succeeds- I still don't think you'd be guaranteed that you would have MADE an icon. Most people in business would just be happy to get a good return on their money regardless if they've made an icon in the process or not.|
Originally Posted by Rabid_Metroid
Part of the problem, I think, is that nobody's putting out the effort to MAKE a new iconic character.
To make a new icon, you need more than just a solid character concept and visual. You need to give him over to writers that can use him/her well. You need video and movie exposure. You need toys, and posters. You need to reign in other writers that want the new guy to show up in their comic, but only to mess with him. Anything less than a solid idea with the entire company (and more) behind it will just fade into the background. |
Somehow I don't think you can set out with the direct goal of creating an iconic character from scratch. I think that happens organically as a result of everything else (tangible and intangible) and history's fickle judgement.
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Erm, isn't that sort of the idea here? Characters that the general public can identify and know at least a -little- about due to, well, whatever? |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If we're now factoring in "popular cultural recognition" for a character's qualifications for iconic status...
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
then Venom, as the weak link in the Spider-Man movie franchise, gets demoted in the same fashion as film-flops Spawn, Judge Dredd, Tank Girl, or the evidently unadaptable Punisher (whose movie career has a whopping three strikes against the character).
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Sure Punisher's movie's have bombed, but I'd be willing to bet his skull logo is one of the top identifiable comicy images out there.
As I understand, Dredd's comics are still going strong. Plus there's the new faithful movie in the works. And 2000AD's supposed to be doing a big North American comic push in time for the movie.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
On the other hand, one could argue that mainstream recognition is overrated, especially if Hollywood's imprimatur is required. Doc Savage and the Shadow, both iconic pulp heroes, bombed at the box office, but their premiere status is indisputable. Certainly fans recognize them without prompting.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
After a disastrous cameo in the Wolverine movie (which was, incidentally, held afloat only by Hugh Jackman's star power, not the character), Deadpool's movie fortunes look increasinly dim as once-favored leading man Ryan Reynolds devotes himself to Green Lantern. The odds of his breaking through are fairly low at this point.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If pop culture penetration is the defining factor for iconic comics heroes, i.e. blockbuster movies, then Pixar's The Incredibles, which got their comic book after their movie, should definitely be considered iconic.
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
I'd agree with Agonus. Just on iconography (no pun intended ) alone, Punisher, and to a slightly lesser extent, Venom are instantly recognizable outside of the comic shops.
As far as Deadpool...he's in the TV spots for the new Marvel vs. Capcom game. There's 20 characters on each side in that game, and he's getting screen time over the likes of Dr. Doom, Phoenix, She-Hulk and Storm. He may not hit icon status, but he's getting the "known outside of comics" bit down....probably because he knows there's such a thing as outside of comics
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Manga is (or at least was) hugely popular in the west as well. To the under-25 crowd, I think a lot of manga and anime characters are more well-known than some of the US characters we consider iconic.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Sailor Moon's probably iconic in Japan at least. I've traveled to Japan several times in the last few years and I still see images of her sprinkled around on signs and shops and such. And that "other manga stuff" is still far more popular there than comic books ever thought about being in the US.
But I'm not sure if this thread's really talking "globally" iconic or iconic anywhere. *shrugs* |
That's why most Marvel and DC readers are in their 30s and 40s- the next generation found a new wave of their own, and I think that's great. Each new generation should have their own icons.
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A campy TV show from the mid-60s?|
Originally Posted by Lothic
But as you point out clearly Batman has "something extra" that Doc Savage doesn't. Whatever makes Batman "more remembered" than Doc is what makes him iconic.
|
In all seriousness, that's what rescued the Batman from neglect and, according to Bob Kane, quite possibly termination. In the 50s and early 60s, the character had utterly lost his way, accumulated a distractingly large "supporting" cast (and with the Bat-Mite simply distracting), and exchanged noir-ish fights with his rogues gallery for sci-fi adventures against monsters that would have embarrassed Ed Wood. With the property in development for TV with ABC, however, it made more economic sense to "reboot" the series under Carmine Infantino for at least a partial return to the character's roots. The TV show, although a step backward from Infantino's comics in some respects, was a huge mainstream success and afforded the character a capital of popularity that could be drawn on for years and has been periodically replenished by Messrs. Adams, Rogers, Miller, Burton, and Nolan.
Doc Savage neither hit such a nadir nor received such a lucky break. Still, I defy anyone to read one of the old pulp adventures of The Man of Bronze and deny that he has IT - that undefinable quality that makes for an iconic hero.
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Is it more important that the general public (which has no taste in superheroes) can identify the character or that they should be recognized by the average fan (who by definition as some taste, however debatable it may be |
Originally Posted by Agonus
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| Sure Punisher's movie's have bombed, but I'd be willing to bet his skull logo is one of the top identifiable comicy images out there. |
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Oh, I quite agree. However, if you don't put a lot of push behind it, then a new character these days will never get the chance to become iconic.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Somehow I don't think you can set out with the direct goal of creating an iconic character from scratch. I think that happens organically as a result of everything else (tangible and intangible) and history's fickle judgement.
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Basically, the comic company has to believe they have a hit on their hands and act like it. Usually, they just push a character out and see what kind of reaction they get to it, then let it fade and die. They don't take the risks needed to give it a big showing, and when it's not instantly seen as the next Superman or Batman, it gets tossed into the pile of "normal" characters.
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You might be able to create such a character in this day and age, but, as this is the age of multimedia, you probably won't be able to do it in just one format. For instance, the only new iconic characters I can think of in the last 20 years are Harry Potter and Neo. Neo was mostly movies, but spread around a bit.
If someone comes up with a new comic character that was subsequently made into a series of imagination capturing movies or a long-running TV show or something, it might transition.
Unfortunately, you have to wait a few decades to see if they're still popular/known before you can call them iconic.
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Reaching outside of comics, I could see Rick Grimes being iconic if The Walking Dead continues to do well on TV. He doesn't quite have the "Look at me!" factor that most superheroes have, but he's an interesting character who's certainly caught on more than most other similar characters have.
Maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer, although she didn't start with comics (to my knowledge) has certainly branched into the medium. She has a solid base of material and had widespread exposure, although that's waned somewhat since the ending of the show.
Creating something really iconic is tough to do nowadays. Things get huge, then die a quiet, lonely death.
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Doc indeed does have it, even if some of his adventures were easy to deduce in a few chapters, the character has the makings of an icon. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
A campy TV show from the mid-60s?
In all seriousness, that's what rescued the Batman from neglect and, according to Bob Kane, quite possibly termination. In the 50s and early 60s, the character had utterly lost his way, accumulated a distractingly large "supporting" cast (and with the Bat-Mite simply distracting), and exchanged noir-ish fights with his rogues gallery for sci-fi adventures against monsters that would have embarrassed Ed Wood. With the property in development for TV with ABC, however, it made more economic sense to "reboot" the series under Carmine Infantino for at least a partial return to the character's roots. The TV show, although a step backward from Infantino's comics in some respects, was a huge mainstream success and afforded the character a capital of popularity that could be drawn on for years and has been periodically replenished by Messrs. Adams, Rogers, Miller, Burton, and Nolan. Doc Savage neither hit such a nadir nor received such a lucky break. Still, I defy anyone to read one of the old pulp adventures of The Man of Bronze and deny that he has IT - that undefinable quality that makes for an iconic hero. |
To me he's basically Indiana Jones only he doesn't need the fedora and whip. He's got the brains and the skills and trained to I believe peak human condition which means he should be on par with Captain America in terms of strength, but he doesn't have the advantage of the super soldier serum.
Give Doc a movie like Indiana Jones had and you should have a winner. Preferably along the lines of Raiders or Last Crusade.
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Let's not forget the ever popular 60 (or was it 70's I forget) Batman TV Show.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Likely due to how many comics have been published over the years, how many "Bat" series are currently running, and how he is essentially the Bat-deity of the DCU
The Doc hasn't had quite that level of exposure. |
Batman has that show to get into the publics eye. He had the Super Friends cartoon.
Superman had his many shows, had his radio show, his movies...ect...ect
And this was during a time we're people had attention spans longer than 2 episodes.
Now a days, people can see one episode of a show, be wowed, see the next and go "is that it?" change the channel.
And the creators, stated again, don't tend to be much better.
It takes dedication to make these characters iconic. Todays media creators don't tend to have it. They're looking for the quick, big money and 15minutes of fame.
I'm not blaming them mind you.
But let's take Spawn as an example.
Comic was a success, I believe the cartoon on HBO did well...then they made a movie that didn't do it any justice, and didn't seem to take it seriously, and really seemed to put in the "lets add in toy gimmicks" (The Spawn Bike!)
Still, Spawn is one of the few I think can still make it, however, to do so, might have to take it in a different direction from where the comics gone so far.
Savage Dragon is another one that comes to mind. Last I recall, the cartoon was a success. However, the comic was a lot more adult oriented, and thusly parents started going "OMG!" and I think that's what killed SD.
To get that iconic status, the comic characters need to be more than comic book medium. At the same time, fans need to quit the raging (and the pirating I'm sure doesn't help).
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So does that mean that trascending the medium is the ultimate test of an iconic character? If so, that's a lightning-in-a-bottle quality.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
To get that iconic status, the comic characters need to be more than comic book medium.
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People who don't read detective stories recognize Sherlock Holmes (is it the pipe and deerstalker?) or spy novels, James Bond (is it the barrell-of-the-gun opening with theme music?) or fantasy epics, Gandalf (is it the wizard hat and robe?). None of these characters were overnight successes, nor are any of those sub-genres is considered "fresh", although they're all thriving. (And I'm not getting into farther-flung examples, such as Hamlet and Mickey Mouse.)
Incidentally, I'd add John Constantine as an almost-but-not-quite candidate. Although numerous writers have had varying success in portraying him, his Hellblazer series is Vertigo's longest-running title, and his first appearance in Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing was a star turn if such a thing exists in comics. Unfortuantely, any chance of mainstream breakout in a movie adaptation was sabotaged with the most egregiously unsupportable casting since Sylvester Stallone played Judge Dredd without the helmet. Sorry, but Theodore Logan is not a streetwise Liverpudlian con artist-magician.
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We're essentially making up these guidelines as we're going here though, aren't we? But considering that the general public outnumber fans by like, lots and lots and lots, I'd say so. Unless we're specifically going for new icons for the fans and not, well, everyone.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Is it more important that the general public (which has no taste in superheroes) can identify the character or that they should be recognized by the average fan (who by definition as some taste, however debatable it may be
)? |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
People will recognize whatever comic character they grew up with. Only reason Bats and Sup are ultra popular because they've been around for so long that numerous generations of people knew of them as children.
For those who grew up in the early to mid 80s I would imagine TMNT, GI Joe, Transformers are iconic. And since they've been multiple TV series for each of them over the years since their debut, they are probably as recognizable to those under 30 as Batman, Superman and even Spider-man and the Hulk.
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I still think that a complete definition of "iconic" would have to include general acknowledgment and recognition by the general public and/or popular culture.
Are we just going to have to wait and judge by staying power?