So even Stamina + Quick Recovery is still not enough, eh?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-02-07 09:34 in Brutes
Couple of observations:
1) End reduction matters far more in attacks than toggles. When you calculate the EPS of attacks, you usually end up with somewhere between 0.75-1.5 end/sec. Looking at Energy Melee without enhancements:
Barrage: Attack cycle 7.33 seconds, End cost 6.864 = 0.9364/s
Energy Punch: Attack cycle 4.83 seconds, End cost 5.2 = 1.0766/s
Bone Smasher: Attack cycle 9.5 seconds, End cost 8.528 = 0.8977/s
You get the idea. Those are way more expensive than toggles, and recharge raises the EPS significantly. Conversely, end reduction also chops off a LOT more EPS than it would for toggles.
2) In addition to attack EPS, I've been running a WP scrapper myself, and the toggles have been choking me. I've got the WP toggles all running plus Tough/Weave plus Maneuvers, 5-6 End Mod slots between Stamina and Quick Recovery, Numina's +/+ in Health, and I'm just barely straddling the breakeven line for recovery. Granted, if I leave off the pool powers, I'm fine for endurance, but where's the fun in that?
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that. It always felt like the Quick Recovery in Willpower was a consolation price to make up for the whole set costing so damn much 
And you are correct that attacks cost significantly more than toggles, and endurance there would generally be more effective than it would be in toggles. I was kind of hoping I wouldn't have to, though, that Stamina and Quick Recovery would take care of it, themselves. They will not, so this means I have to slot for endurance, which means more work for me. Oy vey.
Energy Punch generally has some of the best DPS and DPA in the game, so it makes sense it'd be very expensive. I'm just happy Barrage no longer sucks. Even so, I'll probably start out with Total Focus, as that's the one thing I use the closest to its actual recharge cycle of any of my attacks. Something to look out for is usually how many attacks I can squeeze into an attack chain before I start having to let them idle, but with Energy Melee being as slow as it is, that doesn't seem like it'll be an issue any time soon, if ever. And, yes, I know recharge slotting and Set bonuses can solve that, but I'm only planning one step ahead for the moment. "Must slot for endurance" should be good enough for the moment.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If it helps, a single Endurance SO (or the equivalent if you're doing IOs) for each power is probably going to be enough to ease your pain significantly. Heck, a single Dam/End IO would probably do the trick.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Fun math games. Triple slotting Quick Recovery and Stamina with end mod IOs, adding Numina and Miracle procs to Health, one +5% max end accolade, and three Dark Mastery powers slotted with 3 pieces of Cloud Senses each, and you get something like 4.62 endurance a second recovery.
Don't know if that's of any use for you.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this. However - and here's the fun part - I may have been mistaken on the original assessment. That was done prior to using SOs, and SOs now seem to have helped significantly, to the point where I just can't seem to keep my endurance down. I mean, sure, a couple of big hits like Total Focus followed by Bone Smasher does take a large chunk of endurance off of me, but I can't seem to attack fast enough to make that stick. It just recovers back up to full. I'll keep an eye on that, and probably will indeed slot everything for endurance reduction... At some point. But it would be interesting to see if this is sustainable on just recovery.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
If it helps, a single Endurance SO (or the equivalent if you're doing IOs) for each power is probably going to be enough to ease your pain significantly. Heck, a single Dam/End IO would probably do the trick.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Good luck to you. I've been doing the same thing with Accuracy on a few characters that have to-hit powers. With a few cheap IO sets, it's possible to leave off slotting for Accuracy entirely until you start running into +1 and +2 enemies regularly.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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For energy melee, the endurance cost of a single-target attack chain is ~4.6 per second without endurance reduction for a wide range of recharge rate. It gets lower at low recharge rates. Actually, other primary sets are usually more endurance intensive.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So, can I run on just Stamina and Quick Recovery from Willpower? Well, no, not really. There just isn't enough recovery in there, even fully-slotted, to offset Energy Melee plus four Willpower toggles plus Hover. I don't know if that's because Willpower is endurance-intensive or because Energy Melee is, but this just isn't cutting it. And I'm not sure why.
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Well, I just about dropped my own toggles in this last fight, and I do not like seeing my endurance close to bottoming out so often. I really can't sustain this. Pity. Guess that means another 7 slots. I'm still determined to go without endurance slotting in my toggles, though. Quick Recovery has to save me slots from SOMEWHERE
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I 4-slotted Stamina and QR for my SS/WP brute because I "Never wanted to have Endurance Problems again". Each had 2 Reg. EndMod IOs, & Full End Mod IO and Proc from Performance Shifter, so prior to Stamina becoming inherent, I literally never had End Problems anymore, even with Rage & Hasten Crashes and Never turning sprint off.
Then, inherent stamina... So, I decided to see how far my 'Energizer Bunny" could be pushed. I picked up 3 toggles from Leadership and put Mule IOs (another LotG recharge, etc) in them, and pretty much nothing to reduce their End cost. So, with those toggles on, along with the 4 from Willpower, and Tough/Weave, and Combat Jumping, I have 10 toggles going pretty much all the time. Additionaly, I minimized some of the slotting in my attacks (meaning they eat a bit more end.)... and I finally start to have to worry about Endurance again
Still, it's not that bad unless I'm fighting Carnies or other End Drainers, but I do tend to turn Sprint off now when fighting...and if I see my Rage icon blinking, I take a quick look at my End to make sure I don't have to pop a blue -- I can't just ignore it anymore. Still very satisfied with this new build and if End Drain gets to be too much I can always turn off leadership toggles (which I've only done a couple times so far)
Bottom Line: even Willpower has limits to how far you can push it
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I'd start with the attacks that use the most endurance/time and see how that does before slotting all your attacks.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Guess that means another 7 slots.
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Total Focus is probably one of the last attacks you'll need to slot end redux for. Sure it has a high cost, but the numbers you should be looking at are net end use/second of activation.
During an attack's animation your recovery is active, gaining you a small amount of endurance. So calculate your net recovery per second, that is your total recovery minus the cost of any toggles. Take that times the activation time of the power, and that's how much endurance you gain during the animation of that power. Subtract that from the endurance cost of the power and divide by the animation time to get your net endurance burn per second of that power.
Do that for all attacks and slot end redux in the worst offenders first. You may not need to slot all your attacks.
If it helps, once you get to 50 and get the alpha slot, you could just get 45% end reduction on all powers and not "slot" end reduction into any of them. Not like a brute gets much out of musculature anyway, and nerve is (from what I've heard) mainly used for the defense boost, which doesn't help wp much.
Want joy, fun, and seasons in the sun? SM/WP.
My toggles come to 1 end/sec consumption (all wp toggles plus tough and weave). My recovery is just under 4 end/sec.
I have 80% end reduction in stone mallet, heavy mallet, gloom, and seismic smash.
I have two chance for end recovery performance shifters.
And I can, and do, flatline my blue bar if hasten is running to bring my global recharge to 125% (with spikes to 225% via a recharge proc in fault). Also an uncommon spiritual alpha slotted. A lot of that is the hasten crash of course... but it only shows up because my relentless engine of brute destruction is (very slowly) moving towards 0 without losing 15 every two minutes.
My WP/Energy Melee tanker ran without stamina for quite a while... it was a mistake - he was always gasping for blue pills. Total Focus and Energy Transfer hurt the blue badly. I was very happy when free stamina came along. Once I get him alpha slotted with the cardiacs it should all be a thing of the past.
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Not to sounds like Cpt. Obvious, but the cardiac alpha is the only way to fly! :P
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One thing to note, is that EPS for attacks only matters when you fight. EPS for toggles matters when you're fighting and when you're moving from one mob to the other.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Conversely, end reduction also chops off a LOT more EPS than it would for toggles.
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I have no numbers to talk about, but I found that even after slotting for end cost, Quick Recovery, and Stamina, my Stone/WP Brute is not a big fan of keeping his endurance. 
Although, I know that there's a huge amount of improvement that could be made to his build to help with that. Just, on the first pass, his use of end is rather crazy.
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No love for Spiritual? (granted that's even more end usage, but it also boosts Willpower's health recovery)
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
If it helps, once you get to 50 and get the alpha slot, you could just get 45% end reduction on all powers and not "slot" end reduction into any of them. Not like a brute gets much out of musculature anyway, and nerve is (from what I've heard) mainly used for the defense boost, which doesn't help wp much.
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On Inventions Sets: Really not something I'm looking to get into, and really not something that should be necessary with Stamina and Quick Recovery.
On Alpha Boosts: The character in question is level 24, so Alphas really aren't a consideration quite yet. To boot, I wouldn't bother with an endurance Alpha on a Brute, when the recharge one typically has a much stronger impact. And again - it shouldn't be necessary. Dealing with endurance will be easy, just not AS easy as I thought.
On Slotting: Slotting highest EPS attacks or highest cost attacks has been something of a conundrum of mine, as has slotting toggles vs. slotting attacks. Here's why.
As mentioned, toggles cost far less than attacks, but unlike attacks, toggles run all the time. I can afford to drop in endurance some within one fight, provided I can recover by the next fight. Since I won't be using attacks while I'm not fighting, they don't hinder my ability to do so, but since I don't tend to turn toggles off for no reason, they DO keep me from recovering, potentially making me start the next fight at less than full, and potentially making each fight drop me lower and lower until I lose said toggles.
While slotting high EPS attacks the most is the prudent thing to do over time, this also assumes I use them the closest to their perfect cycle, which I'm not sure I do. By contrast, slower, heavier attacks I typically use as soon as they are up, meaning they're "more true" to their expected EPS costs. As well, there's also EPA to consider, as not all fights last long enough to go through multiple cycles.
It's something to consider, but I do know one thing - Total Focus was the biggest drop in my end bar. Outside of that, my recovery was able to basically keep even with my cost, but throw that it and it would "step down" endurance in big steps. I've currently slotted that for reduction and have not seen further problems. I'll still be looking at one more toggle, however, so I may need to slot a few more things for reduction.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I just dinged a WP brute. If it makes you feel better, the 20's were probably the toughest time for End issues. They're gone now, and I'm slotting Spiritual. It boosts max hp as well as regen, and I want my aoe's up as much as possible, since end is a non-issue. But I also have 3 end procs in my build, so if you're skipping IO's you may still encounter some issues. But if you skip even frankenslotting, then you pretty much have to sacrifice something (recharge, dam, or end).
You want to slot your attacks rather than your toggles. If you ever plan on running TFs there will be quite a few prolonged fights, like AVs, where you will be attacking for quite a while. If you don’t slot some end redux in your attacks there is no way you can do that.
Also, why would you NOT what to look into IO sets?
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Yeah, I'll be doing that, now that I know I should. I'm also not TOO concerned as to which attacks it's best to slot, since I intend to slot them all regardless. I don't foresee needing too many extra slots anywhere. And, yes, prolonged fights will exist, and I managed to drop my toggles again doing not much else beyond going from fight to fight. Steps must be taken as slots permit.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
You want to slot your attacks rather than your toggles. If you ever plan on running TFs there will be quite a few prolonged fights, like AVs, where you will be attacking for quite a while. If you dont slot some end redux in your attacks there is no way you can do that.
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| Also, why would you NOT what to look into IO sets? |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Technically speaking, you should slot what will give you the best return. Toggles are up all the time, but attacks burn more. How much attacks burn on average depends on what percentage of the time you're in combat vs just running around, and whether you use that attack as often as it recharges or not. Usually, unless you're running really sparse missions, slotting attacks win. You should compare the total endurance per cycle second of all the attacks you tend to cycle as often as possible, and slot from highest to lowest. That's almost always the best return on slotting.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On Slotting: Slotting highest EPS attacks or highest cost attacks has been something of a conundrum of mine, as has slotting toggles vs. slotting attacks. Here's why.
As mentioned, toggles cost far less than attacks, but unlike attacks, toggles run all the time. I can afford to drop in endurance some within one fight, provided I can recover by the next fight. Since I won't be using attacks while I'm not fighting, they don't hinder my ability to do so, but since I don't tend to turn toggles off for no reason, they DO keep me from recovering, potentially making me start the next fight at less than full, and potentially making each fight drop me lower and lower until I lose said toggles. While slotting high EPS attacks the most is the prudent thing to do over time, this also assumes I use them the closest to their perfect cycle, which I'm not sure I do. By contrast, slower, heavier attacks I typically use as soon as they are up, meaning they're "more true" to their expected EPS costs. As well, there's also EPA to consider, as not all fights last long enough to go through multiple cycles. |
Exception: if you spam AoE, you slot AoE. AoE always wins endurance slotting, period.
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I don't see how that's an exception, since spamming AoE is a cycle of it's own, and hence still follow the same rules, especially when you've more than one AoE. E.g. slotting spin would be better than slotting epic fireball (9.4 or 14 cd compared to 32) even if fireball costs much more to fire.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically speaking, you should slot what will give you the best return. Toggles are up all the time, but attacks burn more. How much attacks burn on average depends on what percentage of the time you're in combat vs just running around, and whether you use that attack as often as it recharges or not. Usually, unless you're running really sparse missions, slotting attacks win. You should compare the total endurance per cycle second of all the attacks you tend to cycle as often as possible, and slot from highest to lowest. That's almost always the best return on slotting.
Exception: if you spam AoE, you slot AoE. AoE always wins endurance slotting, period. |
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Oh, I agree completely. It just feels... Weird to slot Energy Punch when it's so "small" and not Total Focus, which is so "large." It's not rational, I know, that's just how it feels. I will, however, do as you suggest.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically speaking, you should slot what will give you the best return. Toggles are up all the time, but attacks burn more. How much attacks burn on average depends on what percentage of the time you're in combat vs just running around, and whether you use that attack as often as it recharges or not. Usually, unless you're running really sparse missions, slotting attacks win. You should compare the total endurance per cycle second of all the attacks you tend to cycle as often as possible, and slot from highest to lowest. That's almost always the best return on slotting.
Exception: if you spam AoE, you slot AoE. AoE always wins endurance slotting, period. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Its an exception because I said "You should compare the total endurance per cycle second of all the attacks you tend to cycle as often as possible..." Even if that is not true of your AoEs, if you use them profligately, their high costs will almost always make them the best slotting opportunity, even if they are not used as often as possible.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
I don't see how that's an exception, since spamming AoE is a cycle of it's own, and hence still follow the same rules, especially when you've more than one AoE. E.g. slotting spin would be better than slotting epic fireball (9.4 or 14 cd compared to 32) even if fireball costs much more to fire.
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I've been running a little experiment with my most recent Energy Melee/Willpower Brute: Can I build a character with NO endurance reduction enhancements? Once upon a time when I never took Stamina, I had to invest in endurance reduction quite heavily, but I've been cutting back on this now that every one of my characters has inherent Stamina. I still have endurance reduction slotting, just... Not as much.
So, can I run on just Stamina and Quick Recovery from Willpower? Well, no, not really. There just isn't enough recovery in there, even fully-slotted, to offset Energy Melee plus four Willpower toggles plus Hover. I don't know if that's because Willpower is endurance-intensive or because Energy Melee is, but this just isn't cutting it. And I'm not sure why.
The obvious solution is to slot endurance reduction enhancements - clearly - so the question then becomes what to put them in. Instinctively, I want to say Total Focus and Whirling Hands, simply because they're the ones that seem to take the biggest bite out of my end bar, but I'm not sure if that's smart in terms of EPS or EPA. What I DO know, however, is I'll try to at least not slot my toggles for endurance reduction and hope the added recovery will absorb that.