Praetoria's morality...

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Autocracy is unstable for one reason only: the lifespan of a person is limited. As for examples: A democracy which the opponents are oppressed is not a true democracy. A false democracy with one centeral leader can therefore be considered a dictatorship. Having said that, I'll give the example of Singapore once more, which many people have argued that it is not a true democracy, and that Lee Kuan Yew has managed to turn a 3rd world city state with no natural resources with only human labour, to a 1st world city state with world class standards in almost everything, except freedoms.

And now having said that, prove me wrong.

In which case, it's not 1st world.

Sure, you define your definition of first world to include freedoms. Definition war!

Alternatively, one can look at standards of living, happiness, peace, education, job security, cost of living (vs income), all those things which affects every day life.

Yeah, it is. Type of government is not a factor in labeling developmental status. Type of government can certainly hinder developmental growth from 3rd world to 1st world status, but that's true regardless of type of government

It won't help. I could find refutations of the story going back to early 2009, without bothing to look further back. It has that skim of plausibility (milk can cause real agricultural pollution issues) combined with something to ridicule (they're going to treat it like CRUDE OIL!) that makes it really appealling.

It also makes me wonder how effective the Seers really are at seeing what people think about Cole's administration, and exactly how far out of line citizens of Pratoria can get before something bad happens to them. Even if they think not being slaughtered by the DE is overall a good thing, everyone gets annoyed by things the government does, or they think the government does. There's a big gap, though, between planning to blow up a praetor, and thinking that Cole's administration could use a shake-up because it lets bunches of heavily armed Syndicate and Destroyers run around the place (or that they're idiots because they're planning to outlaw curved cucumbers).

I haven't played through all the Praetoria missions yet. What's the most petty thing that we know from the story arcs that someone has been arrested/punished/disappeared for doing or thinking?

Being 1 minute late for curfew, had knees blown out and rest of family executed for trason. First power mish talks about a disgrunted citizen who took the law into his own hands and killed the officer who dealt that punishment.

I agree. We should absolutely return to the original definition of "first world".

First world: United States and its allied countries.
Second world: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and its allied countries.
Third world: ... everyone else.


I guess by that definition, Praetoria really should be part of the fourth world...?

Wardog was a teacher who taught his students about the true history of the Hamidon War, so he was fired, and when he got hiome, he found his whole family had disappeared.

Whenever people say things like that, I have to wonder if that's an actual deductive argument or a reverse justification of existing game design. And I wonder about this because that's completely false and easily provable by looking at the hero-side game. The original City of Heroes had no affiliation, it had no "belonging," it had no factions. A hero was a hero, doing heroic deeds THAT HE CHOSE TO DO.

There is no limitation on free choice in a multiplayer game, or indeed in an MMO. It all comes down to writing, and in particular NOT writing yourself in a corner by constructing a binary world. Especially when you have not, in fact, constructed a binary world. What do I mean?

Well, Praetoria is not just the Resistance and the Loyalists. Even ignoring things like the Ghouls and the Destroyers, you still have one other major player with clout, ties and resources to rival both of the others - the Syndicate. Emperor Cole has the resources of the state, government and police. The Resistance has the resources of a massive number of agents and supporters. The Syndicate has the resources of EVERY CORPORATION IN THE CITY, if not the entire world. They have money, they have manpower, they have technology, they have agents who have infiltrated practically every facet of public life and government, to say nothing of the Resistance, they have psychics of their own, and by the truckload. Hell, most of the Syndicate Suits even seem to have a genuine ideology for the future of Praetoria distinct from either Cole or Scot, one of a shadowy conspiracy existing just below the surface of a seemingly free society, somewhat of a half-way point between Cole's totalitarian ideology and Scot's anarchist ideology.

Why aren't the syndicate a major player? Why aren't players allowed to side with them when both the Resistance and the Loyalists are acting like complete loonies? Hell, they're even built with faction friction in mind between the Honour and Business enthusiasts. Honour follow the teachings of Wu Yin, trying to free Praetoria from Cole and run it better, whereas Business follow people like Octavian and try to become a deep-rooted conspiracy to better themselves by ruling over society. The Syndicate is ripe for being included in the game, but actually isn't. And why? I haven't a clue.

The Resistance vs. Loyalists duality is - to my eyes at least - just an instance of lazy writing. False binary fallacies like "You're either Nexus or against us!" are just that - putting the player in a manufactured, unbelievable dilemma for the sake of putting the player in a dilemma. But Thou Must if ever I saw it. And it's not like it's JUST Praetoria because Praetoria is such a unique, special case (ignoring the fact that it was purpose-designed and written so as to "tie their hands"), what about the Arachnos vs. Longbow duality? Can I not be a hero without immediately affiliating myself with Longbow whenever a hero vs. villain conflict erupts? Longbow are NOT the face of heroism, they are a private military organisation which isn't even strictly legal. And what about Arachnos? Why the blue balls would my villains want to lackey up to the Spiders? Can they not be villains on their own? Can they not take part in hero vs. villain conflicts without being affiliated with Arachnos? Despite what the Resistance Greeter in the Rift Enclosure might lead us to believe, Arachnos are not THE big bads. They are A big bad, right alongside Malta, the Rikti, the Nemesis Army, the Carnival of Shadows, the Devouring Earth, the Circle of Thorns and so forth.

I have had it up to HERE with faction-on-faction action. Why does everything have to be organised brawls and organised wars these days? Why can our characters never shine without having to affiliate themselves with some organisation, all because a writer keeps writing every bloody piece of new content like a god damn crossover civil war comic that has to involve large-scale warfare or large-scale infiltration? What happened to Clark Kent working in a newspaper and saving people in his spare time without necessarily leading a Justice League or the armies of Earth or whatever? What happened to Magneto taking on the X-Men without having to involve Venom, Carnage and the Kingpin? What happened to all of those stories?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Just a note though, with all these complaints, these new content is actually going in the right direction.

1) Tip mishes: Extended from radio mishes, You find something happening, and go out to do what you think is right, and no one is going to stop you.
2) The new praetorian events? No contact, you get to choose your side (well, other than the syndicate one, which I think needs more options: it's the only one without options), no one's forcing you to enter.
3) It's probably noteworthy that with the incarnate trials, you no longer need to go to ouroboros (or join ouroboros, etc) to become an incarnate, all you need to do is complete an incarnate trial.

My suggestion?
1) Extend the tip mishes to start from level one, even if there is no morality involved, or let morality be fixed within hero/vigilante and villain/rogue with no red/blue travel until level 20. In praetoria, let tip mishes be an alternate way to change or affirm sides. Additionally, increase tip drop rate for street sweeping, and do not limit the number of tip mishes you can get after hitting the fame limit.
2) Implement more events similar to the praetorian events. Additionally, allow these events be an alternate way of gaining alignment points.

Oh, you are definitely correct in this regard. I've gone on the record as not liking the morality of Vigilantes and not feeling any of my existing heroes or villains would fit that... But that's still a choice I'm given to make, and it IS a choice of morality, not group think faction identity. None of my characters make sense to be Vigilantes? Then none of them WILL be! There are more than enough moralities to encompass all concepts I would personally play, and even a "Neutral/Neutral" character could probably fit in there somewhere along the line.

Vigilante missions let me choose what to do not based on whose ideology I want to support, but based on what ideology I want to give that particular character, and that's really all I'm asking for.

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Praetorian even missions are... Iffy, however. Yes, they lack contacts, but that's actually even more offensive, because my character is still reduced to group think and faction identity without even being prompted. I can kind of see it as having no choice when characters TELL you to do something, and you can sort of pretend you don't want to but what are you gonna' do... But when I go out on my own and strive to follow either faction's agenda without being given a third option... Eh!

See, what bothers me about those is the same as I mentioned before. Let's take the Ghoul vs. PPD event, for instance. It's not just a question of stopping the Ghouls vs. helping the Ghouls. No, it's stopping the ghouls FOR THE PPD vs. helping the ghouls FOR THE RESISTANCE. Everything that happens is always refracted through the prism of Resistance vs. Loyalists duality, and that doesn't make for good fiction.

A binary world is a bad world, and this is even more true in fiction than it is in real life. There's no reason to write a world as binary, because all this does is either exclude or pervert concepts so as not to let them get away from the EXTREMELY RAILROADIN PLOT. This needs to be said in all caps, because that's what it is. There are points in the rails, sure, but it's still the same storyline - Resistance vs. Loyalists. Longbow vs. Arachnos. Hell, at this point I welcome Vanguard's involvement, but of course, they put themselves in the Resistance's thrall, because the Dark Watcher is a Calvin Scott fanboy, apparently, and never questions his insane decisions. If Vanguard can have a schism with Longbow, can we please present one between them and the Resistance?

Back to point - to draw a binary world is a mistake, because it excludes themes and it makes the world unbelievable, like those poorly-written movies where people don't talk like people and everyone's motivations are forced. This doesn't need to happen. You don't have to limit people's options to give them a choice. Choice does not have to be meaningful if it can't be made meaningful, and I'd rather have purely cosmetic choice over such a restricting storyline.

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On the suggestions: I agree, for the most part. I can see not allowing people to swap their factions before level 20, but I can't see any harm in letting us do tip missions, even if they don't earn us points towards a faction. Sure, the low levels fly by fast, but it'd be cool to have some moral choices for the lowbies, perhaps between arrogant overconfident new hero (those being vigilante-like options) and cautious but responsible rookie (those being more traditional hero options).

And while I may complain about Praetorian even morality, I have to admit that, mechanically, they're far superior than practically any event before them. If I never see another Rikti or Zombie invasion, it will be too soon, but the various Praetorian events? I'd tune in. I can try them alone, or with friends, or even with random strangers, and they're more interesting than just basic mosh pits/soup of effects. That alone deserves major props. More like those, please.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

We have no idea what his family were doing, for all we know they could of disappeared after suicide bombing a school.

The resistance just like the loyalists are not reliable narrators.

How many examples are there of the Resistance lying, compared to the entire set up of the dictatorship being one big lie?
And why would the loyalists learn that their side was one gigantic con trick, but the Resistance players wouldn't learn about the "lies" their side was telling?
The way stories in this game work, if someone has a secret, or isn't telling the truth, players learn about it - if Wardog was lying, players would find out about it - plus, what happened to Wardog and his family isn't exactly an unsual thing that happens to anyone who tries to oppose Tyrant and his dictatorship.

Who cares about lies, the resistance was going to blow up a hospital to make a point. Likely that was not the most horrid thing they would do.

Both sides are flat out evil. There's no way to win in Praetoria.

Lies are repugnant, denying essential services like medical care and clean water are downright evil.

Wardog: "Don't worry captured cop guy, I'll totally spare your family if you tell me what I want to know."

That's not a lie told to the player.
Contacts or NPCs who lie to the player don't get away with their deception, in Praetoria or on Primal Earth - even Tyrant gets the chance to try and justify his lies to stormtroopers who turn against him.
Having a contact tells lies to the player without the player ever finding out they were lying would be like reading a detective story where the case wasn't solved at the end.
The only example of a lie that's still unresolved in the game is the Mender Silos/Mysterious Letter Writer stuff - one of them is lying to us, but as the Coming Storm is an ongoing storyline, we haven't found out which one it is yet - but thre's no way that we won't ever find out the truth as the storyline progresses.

Seems kinda weird then that the devs have made them the right side to be on then

No, they explicitly did NOT do that.

So being told we have to join forces with the Resisatnce to stand a chance of stopping Tyrant's evil plans doesn't count?

It really doesn't, considering that happens in Primal earth, and the discussion is Praetorian morality. Thanks for destroying my interest in the forums yet again with your relentless insulting dogma. ""

I don't mean all the obvious stuff on Primal Earth - during the Praetorian content, Dark Watcher says how it's important to get Primal Earth help for the Resistance, or Tyrant will crush everyone.

And I believe that is one of the very last arcs for the resistance. The side you are already on in order to get.

It has nothing to do with all the evil choices you made beforehand, besides how you wound up on the resistance.