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It's the bigger picture they're going by - in the meta-story, supproting Tyrant and his dictatorship is evil, resisting Tyrant and his dictatorship is good - which is what they've been saying since Hero Con 2009.|
Originally Posted by Toony
Huh....the devs don't agree that loyalists are evil.
But I guess bombing hospitals and murdering cops=pinnacle of heroism? Resistance has it's hand in that. Also murdering the innocent families of cops. |
In the GR beta, the loyalist even had the Villain titles and mission completion music, and the Resistance had the Hero titles and the Hero mission completion music - and the badge artwork still marks loyalists as Villains and Resistance as Heroes.
The main purpose of Praetoria is to provide a world-threatening archvillain and his evil legions of robots and stromtroopers for players to fight, tied into the expanded Incarnate lore and the endgame system that goes with it.
In the first 2 new Incarnte TFs - we fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans on Primal Earth, and fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans in Praetoria.
In the first Incarnate raid in I20 - we fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans at the BAF, and the next raid mentioned is on the millitary base in the Lambda Sector of Neutropolis - so we'll be fighting Tyrant's forces and stopping his evil plans there too - plus, there's some concept art that we've been shown that features Mother Mayhem's asylum as a raid setting - and putting 2 and 2 together, I think that'll involve us fighting Tyrant's forces and stopping his evil plans.
Tyrant and his loyalists are the greatest evil that's been seen in the game so far - an evil that threatens two whole worlds, and forces Heroes and Villains to join forces to try and survive it, and then try and put an end to it.
There is no "gray" in the meta-story - Tyrant and his followers are the blackest evil the devs have so far created.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Never said Cole was a good guy, and Cole isn't the loyalist faction.
All I'm saying is the Resistance arn't the good guys by default.
Resistance are more like the Soviet Russians, or Taliban, or Saddam. Not good, but the enemy of my enemy and all that jazz. They arn't a threat to primal now, so they get to be primal's ally. History shows, however, the apparent lesser of two evils becomes the greater when you remove it's competitor.
Resistance != good, but Loyalist != bad. Cole = bad, Calvin Scott = bad, Tilman = bad, Beholder = Bad
You can be a Loyalist that's against Cole, and against the resistance.
Vanguard is shortsighted, longbow is a tragic mistake given life, and Calvin Scott is, sady, quite capable of exploiting those weaknesses to carry out his twisted revenge.
If DeVore wasn't such an idiot, I could see playing a resistance character that want's to put her in power.
And I'd be very sad if there wasn't high level Loyalist content added later on, but I'm capable of waiting and seeing.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Even though the game treats them as that?
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
All I'm saying is the Resistance arn't the good guys by default.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, you've spewed your dogma often and it is as silly now as it always has been.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's the bigger picture they're going by - in the meta-story, supproting Tyrant and his dictatorship is evil, resisting Tyrant and his dictatorship is good - which is what they've been saying since Hero Con 2009.
In the GR beta, the loyalist even had the Villain titles and mission completion music, and the Resistance had the Hero titles and the Hero mission completion music - and the badge artwork still marks loyalists as Villains and Resistance as Heroes. The main purpose of Praetoria is to provide a world-threatening archvillain and his evil legions of robots and stromtroopers for players to fight, tied into the expanded Incarnate lore and the endgame system that goes with it. In the first 2 new Incarnte TFs - we fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans on Primal Earth, and fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans in Praetoria. In the first Incarnate raid in I20 - we fight Tyrant's forces and stop his evil plans at the BAF, and the next raid mentioned is on the millitary base in the Lambda Sector of Neutropolis - so we'll be fighting Tyrant's forces and stopping his evil plans there too - plus, there's some concept art that we've been shown that features Mother Mayhem's asylum as a raid setting - and putting 2 and 2 together, I think that'll involve us fighting Tyrant's forces and stopping his evil plans. Tyrant and his loyalists are the greatest evil that's been seen in the game so far - an evil that threatens two whole worlds, and forces Heroes and Villains to join forces to try and survive it, and then try and put an end to it. There is no "gray" in the meta-story - Tyrant and his followers are the blackest evil the devs have so far created. |
Perhaps they have the villain stuff due to programming? In regards to valentines, someone had to work for scratch or Praetorians would need to be left out of the event. I think you read way too much into that.
The tool tips, the devs, etc all state "Not all resistance are good and not all loyalists are evil" so that flies in the face of your "LOYALISTS ARE EEEEVIL!"
And again, I find the Resistance members who openly work with Arachnos (the defacto evil of Primal) and bomb buildings and murder innocent civilians for no reason to be far more evil than someone who has done nothing but allied themselves with a group. Actions speak louder than words.
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You have an odd definition of good guy. Not many good guys I know of openly bomb hospitals and work with dictatorships.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Even though the game treats them as that?
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You might like to check-out this helpful Paretorian fact sheet, made up from in-game and out-of-game info, starting with Tyrant’s invasion plans for Primal Earth:|
Originally Posted by Toony
Yes, you've spewed your dogma often and it is as silly now as it always has been.
Perhaps they have the villain stuff due to programming? In regards to valentines, someone had to work for scratch or Praetorians would need to be left out of the event. I think you read way too much into that. The tool tips, the devs, etc all state "Not all resistance are good and not all loyalists are evil" so that flies in the face of your "LOYALISTS ARE EEEEVIL!" |
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“Plans are ready to begin the war effort. Emperor Cole believes that the chaos on Primal Earth will spread into Praetoria soon. Already, we have seen Arachnos and Longbow causing terror in our streets. Primal Earth has entire armies of terrorists, monsters, and demons running about unchecked. If they were to find a way into Praetoria, we would all be doomed. It is for that reason that we have worked tirelessly under the direction of Anti-Matter on these machines to bring the war to Primal Earth first. We will use the tower Neuron has built to create a portal big enough to fit the War Walkers. Once they are deployed, the war will be over within a week. Not even the Phalanx can withstand their might. We have been ordered by Cole to take any non-super powered being prisoner and to have the Seers scan their minds to see if they are a threat. Any civilian who is not a threat will be allowed to live under Cole's new empire. We have also programmed the machines to avoid attacking civilians, though casualties due to collateral damage cannot be avoided.' The main purpose is clear: we must destroy the threat on Primal Earth before it destroys us. Once that is done, we will wipe out the remainder of the Resistance. It is estimated we would only need one third of our machines to do so.” |
Some quotes from Tyrant himself:
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“Your hands are already stained with blood, <character name>, much like mine. But we both have done all of these things to protect what we believe in, to protect Praetoria. That is why I fought Hamidon, to protect the world. That is why I have made Praetoria as it is today, to protect the people from themselves.” "That is why I stepped forward to save this world from Hamidon, and that is why I have taken such measures to protect the people of Praetoria from the chaotic nature of humanity.” “People are weak. At least when it comes to doing the right thing. That is why you cannot give them the choice to do what is wrong. I have done so in Praetoria, and look at how it has flourished. Primal Earth, however, allows this to continue, even with some of the worst examples of humanity. That is why it must be wiped away. They know of our perfect world and already, as you have seen, they seek to destroy us. People, when left to their own free will, will seek only to destroy that which is good, that which is pure, <character name>. I will not give them the option to do that. I will strike them down before they can act and ensure that no others ever get the chance to make that choice, the choice to destroy. Humanity cannot be trusted with that choice of destruction; only someone like myself can.” “Those who are in Praetoria deserve the chance to live, <character name>. But not the people in Primal Earth. They have gone for far too long believing in their own way of life. I cannot simply go in there and have them change. No, doing so would be far too difficult and would risk the lives of those in Praetoria. The only way this can end is for all those in Primal Earth who can stand against me to be wiped out. The others will be assimilated into the new Praetorian society on Primal Earth. I will not hesitate to have my army turn on you, <character name>, if you choose to fight in the side of Primals. But I believe that your time in Primal Earth will show you the true, rotting nature of humanity and the horrors that it's capable of.” “I, too, once believed that humanity was good, that it could band together and be saved from the horrors that it was capable of. But this isn't true, <character name>. I have learned this the hard way. You, too, shall learn this the hard way as well. Your time on Primal Earth will show you the true nature of humanity. That I am sure of.” |
Some badges:
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Secret Prisoner: "You have found one of the most forbidden of places in Praetoria: the secret interrogation chamber beneath the PPD Precinct where the officers take the most recalcitrant prisoners for enhanced interrogations." Disappeared: "This is where enemies of the State vanish forver. These lost souls have been brought here from the PPD Headquarters for summary execution without review or recourse." Seer: "Blind yet seeing and casting judgment yet mindless of the crime; the Seer is the instrument of control and the constant threat of the Emperor's displeasure." Condemning: "It is no small thing to make the long perilous journey to the levels beneath the Behavioral Adjustment Facility. The route is filled with hostile PPD trained to shoot first and never ask questions. You have entered a realm that is the last many will see: Do you seek to free the condemned from their fate, or facilitate their demise?" Silent Witness: "You have seen much injustice and brutality in your journeys through Praetoria, and here beneath Precinct 4 in Imperial City you are witness to a chamber dedicated to both. Will you remain silent forever?" Nailbiter: "This PPD interrogation and holding area is littered with the signs of harsh treatment. Dried bodily fluids, ripped off fingernails, and a few human teeth mark this area as a place you don't want to wind up in." Mercy Missionary: "You have visited the Behavioral Adjustment Facility to extend a helping hand to the lost souls housed within. It took great courage to enter this forbidden area, braving the sonic fence and the hordes of belligerent guards on your mission of mercy." Broken Mind: "Deep beneath the Mother of Mercy Hospital, the moans of misbegotten Seers echo through these forgotten corridors. Their sorrow seeps into the minds of those who hear them, disrupting thought and disturbing the emotions. Tarry too long and your mind shall be broken as theirs." Knows the Truth: “From the depths of the Underground to the top of the Magisterium, Praetoria is built on lies. After 50 badges, you've learned this truth." |
Some stuff about the PPD and the Resistance from the GR website:
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When someone speaks out against Emperor Cole or Praetorian matters, the dark side of the PPD emerges, and burly, well-armed officers come into your house in the dead of night and take your loved ones away. Quote: The Resistance attempts to awaken the populace to the reality of what's going on in Praetoria, and it does everything in its power to get would-be Heroes and Villains educated and out of Praetoria as quickly as possible. Members of the Resistance have banded together under the universal goal of stopping Tyrant and returning freedom to all. |
And a few developer quotes to finish things off:
Joe “Hero 1” Morrissey:
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"Emperor Cole is an actual tyrant, and he's doing things to humanity and the freedoms that we're losing because of this". "The real threat is not the Resistance, it's the Praetorian Police Department, and Clockwork and the Seers and the Praetorian Guard". He’s also said that inspiration for Praetoria came from books like “1984”, “Brave New World” and “Fahrenheit 451”, among others. |
John “Protean” Hegner:
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“Tyrant needed to be someone that people could empathize with, despite the fact that he was a villain. We made Tyrant into a version of Statesman who believed a little less in the inherent good in people, and a little more in his own. This minute change was all it took for Primal Earth’s greatest hero to become Praetoria Earth’s greatest villain.” The Powers Division “Kill more people than the other four (PPD, Clockwork, Seers, Praetorian Guard) combined”. Praetoria is “a totalitarian regime". |
Matt “Positron” Miller:
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| “Praetorians do not use the normal GR system, but have points within their stories where they can choose "Loyalist (aka Villain)" or "Resistance (aka Hero)"" |
Jesse “Ghost Falcon” Caceres:
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“At one of our prior panels we revealed that loyalists were actually villains, and Resistance were heroes.” “We made it actually really cool to be a villain, right? And that’s awesome. And players were just choosing like “yeah I want to be loyalist, I want to be the guy that’s supporting the dictatorship””. |
Obviously, this list is going to have to be updated with the new info on the scale of the evil Tyrant and his loyalist stromtroopers are planing that we've seen in the BAF Trial, and in the other Incarnate Trials in I20 - the list of their crimes just gets bigger and bigger
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And none of this counteracts that the resistance isn't good either. If you wish to say both are evil, sure. But there is no good guy here, far as I'm concerned. Either the dictator or the group that bombs buildings and works with a dictator. Pick your choice.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You might like to check-out this helpful Paretorian fact sheet, made up from in-game and out-of-game info, starting with Tyrants invasion plans for Primal Earth:
Some quotes from Tyrant himself: Some badges: Some stuff about the PPD and the Resistance from the GR website: And a few developer quotes to finish things off: Joe Hero 1 Morrissey: John Protean Hegner: Matt Positron Miller: Jesse Ghost Falcon Caceres: Obviously, this list is going to have to be updated with the new info on the scale of the evil Tyrant and his loyalist stromtroopers are planing that we've seen in the BAF Trial, and in the other Incarnate Trials in I20 - the list of their crimes just gets bigger and bigger |
Also you seem to be equating loyalist to devout servant of Tyrant. Marchand is a loyalist and he does not want the war to happen nor does he 100% support all the praetors. Is he also eviler than a baby strangeller because his boss is Tyrant?
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Yes - because he could fight against Tyrant - he could try and turn the military against him, but he chooses to go along with the crime against humanity that is the existence of Tyrant's dictatorship.
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Originally Posted by Toony
Marchand is a loyalist and he does not want the war to happen nor does he 100% support all the praetors. Is he also eviler than a baby strangeller because his boss is Tyrant?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So...why are the resistance good? They work with the crime against humanity that is Arachnos.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yes - because he could fight against Tyrant - he could try and turn the military against him, but he chooses to go along with the crime against humanity that is the existence of Tyrant's dictatorship.
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villains and heroes teaming up to fight a greater evil? MADNESS!!!
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Originally Posted by Toony
So...why are the resistance good? They work with the crime against humanity that is Arachnos.
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Seems more like villains and villains. Again, how are terrorists=good guys? The resistance murders innocent civillians and blows up buildings filled with sick people. No one can explain how that is a good guy thing.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
villains and heroes teaming up to fight a greater evil? MADNESS!!!
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Or how is Arachnos less evil than Tyrant?
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per one of the Resistance members, he claims to have seen Cole standing a top a building during the Hamidon Wars, watching the DE destroy a city before "he came in to save the day."|
Originally Posted by Toony
Seems more like villains and villains. Again, how are terrorists=good guys? The resistance murders innocent civillians and blows up buildings filled with sick people. No one can explain how that is a good guy thing.
Or how is Arachnos less evil than Tyrant? |
The Resistance play more like "Good Cop Bad Cop" obviously enough the Wardens are the Good Cops, while the Crusaders are the Bad Cops. The Wardens are trying to achieve their goals with as little casualties as possible. The Crusaders are trying to achieve their goals by any means necessary and basically take the phrase "for the greater good" to the extreme.
How is Arachnos less evil than Tyrant? There's no "less evil" here, both sides are evil, but Tyrant is more of a global threat than Arachnos (Black Scorpion's in game dialogue even mentions that The Malta Operatives can easily rival Arachnos, and we see how the Praetorian Clockwork mopped them up in the Tin Mage TF).
As for the Loyalists...it's easy enough to define them as villains when they let the populace continue drinking Enriche which contains a mind altering agent.
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The mind altering agent is a relaxant meant to keep you calm and relaxed. It does not actually control minds... Controlling minds is what we see at the BAF. |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
per one of the Resistance members, he claims to have seen Cole standing a top a building during the Hamidon Wars, watching the DE destroy a city before "he came in to save the day."
The Resistance play more like "Good Cop Bad Cop" obviously enough the Wardens are the Good Cops, while the Crusaders are the Bad Cops. The Wardens are trying to achieve their goals with as little casualties as possible. The Crusaders are trying to achieve their goals by any means necessary and basically take the phrase "for the greater good" to the extreme. How is Arachnos less evil than Tyrant? There's no "less evil" here, both sides are evil, but Tyrant is more of a global threat than Arachnos (Black Scorpion's in game dialogue even mentions that The Malta Operatives can easily rival Arachnos, and we see how the Praetorian Clockwork mopped them up in the Tin Mage TF). As for the Loyalists...it's easy enough to define them as villains when they let the populace continue drinking Enriche which contains a mind altering agent. |
If you want a similar situation, Alcohol and Coffee are legalized mind altering drugs.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yes - because he could fight against Tyrant - he could try and turn the military against him, but he chooses to go along with the crime against humanity that is the existence of Tyrant's dictatorship.
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When talking about Praetoria and morality, why doesn't everyone just do the smart thing and ignore everything GG has to say? She has a very naive, black-and-white view of what constitutes "good" and "evil". For her, there are no shades of gray. Well, not when it comes to "evil" at least. Plot to blow up a hospital, killing untold number of innocent civilians in order to somehow make the safe and happy populace turn against the tyrannical leader? YAY! YOU'RE STILL A HERO! BOOM, BABY BOOM! Hunt down the terrorist organization which threatens the safety of the people and threatens the stability of mankind's best bet for survival in a post-apocalyptic world where there are quite literally monsters at the gate? BOO! YOU'RE STILL A VILLAIN EVEN IF YOUR CONCERN IS MORE FOR THE INNOCENT PEOPLE WITHIN PRAETORIA'S SONIC FENCES THAN IT IS SERVING THE EMPEROR!
Seriously, people. Just act as if she doesn't exist in these sort of threads. If you don't it just drags these threads down into the muck.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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mind altering != mind control, though it's barring on that line when your objective thoughts about Emperor Cole turns into "he's not such a bad guy after all" there's even CoT dialogue with that because some of them drank Enriche when they were in Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
The mind altering agent is a relaxant meant to keep you calm and relaxed. It does not actually control minds... Controlling minds is what we see at the BAF.
If you want a similar situation, Alcohol and Coffee are legalized mind altering drugs. |
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If Enriche actually controlled people there wouldn't be a need for seers, nor would there be a need for enriche advertisements or new flavours. I still believe really just mind altering to make people relaxed and calm despite the chaos around.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
mind altering != mind control, though it's barring on that line when your objective thoughts about Emperor Cole turns into "he's not such a bad guy after all" there's even CoT dialogue with that because some of them drank Enriche when they were in Praetoria.
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Just a thought: I don't think it would be far-fetched to say that Calvin Scott is a by-product of the actions of Mayhem/Cole (with the assumption that Cole sanctioned Mayhem's action regarding Aurora Borealis). We also know that Cole does sanction "turning a blind eye" on specific events to justify his actions. The resistance may be indirectly playing right into his hands.
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I think it would be more like |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Picture Snip...[/URL]
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Don't you understand? There is no other way... Freedom isn't easy, Character, it's going to come with suffering. If you can't accept that, then I'll just have to do this on my own. I'm not going to let someone who is as weak-willed as you get in the way of our victory over Cole! |
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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That would be getting to Nemesis levels of plotting |
Originally Posted by Signpost
Just a thought: I don't think it would be far-fetched to say that Calvin Scott is a by-product of the actions of Mayhem/Cole (with the assumption that Cole sanctioned Mayhem's action regarding Aurora Borealis). We also know that Cole does sanction "turning a blind eye" on specific events to justify his actions. The resistance may be indirectly playing right into his hands.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, we never did find out who or where Nemesis is in Praetoria..
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That would be getting to Nemesis levels of plotting
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Well, yeah. He's the Evil Overlord of the World. You don't get that just by punching dudes. You need find the right dudes to punch, and also make a fairly comprehensive plan to pull it off. In Cole's case: Punch Hamidon when all hope seems lost, get declared "So awesome!" by the survivors.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That would be getting to Nemesis levels of plotting
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As evil schemes go, it's a good one. Nemesis was trying the exact same plot with the Rikti, you know. He just underestimated the Rikti. Cole apparently knew exactly what he was doing. Don't underestimate his plotting ability. Many people have done that, they disappeared.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Literature, theater, and film is full of stories in which the true meaning of the outcome is uncertain due to an unreliable narrator.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Having a contact tells lies to the player without the player ever finding out they were lying would be like reading a detective story where the case wasn't solved at the end.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Beholder = Bad
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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This is a comic book MMO |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Literature, theater, and film is full of stories in which the true meaning of the outcome is uncertain due to an unreliable narrator.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
Well, we never did find out who or where Nemesis is in Praetoria..
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
But I guess bombing hospitals and murdering cops=pinnacle of heroism? Resistance has it's hand in that. Also murdering the innocent families of cops.