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Yes, and what normal rights and freedoms are you referring to? Who decided them?|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
I also have to disagree, Sam. Freeing the seers is clearly the correct moral choice. Forced labor, forced servituded, imprisionment for no crime, clearly violate all the normal rights and freedoms that we hold. The fact that there are political implications as a result are just the consequences of your choice.
What I really like about Going Rogue: we have conversations like this one on these forums. |
The fact is, for society to function, some freedom has to be withheld (because complete freedom would essentially lead to everyone stepping on everyone's toes), some rights may not be as straightforward as it seems (many/most countries have some sort of conscription procedure), abiding by the rules of law enforcement is a core mechanic of all law enforcement (such as holding those awaiting for trial and thus technically not charged as criminals), etc.
I'll give a relevant example. Compare Praetoria to Singapore. There is National Service, Preventive detention, corporeal punishment and the death penalty, the ruling party has been in control for decades, etc. It's also one of the safest places in the world, with good public transportation, available housing for all, cheap food (compared to other first world countries), highly educated population, etc. There are other similarities too, some less far fetched than others, though I won't bother to list them all.
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The normal rights everyone is entitled to.|
Originally Posted by Signpost
Yes, and what normal rights and freedoms are you referring to? Who decided them?
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Singapore, just like Praetoria, isn't a model for how a normal society should be.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You speak as though there is a model. Name it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The normal rights everyone is entitled to.
Singapore, just like Praetoria, isn't a model for how a normal society should be. |
(and before you name the universal human rights, let me note something about it: Who decided it? Everyone, or a select few?)
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Since when?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
we know that Tyrant is evil
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
enforcement forces don't require... forced conscription to be effective
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(loaded word redacted from quote for purposes of argument)
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Originally Posted by Furio
They can't put in all the possible motivations behind making one choice over another, so yeah.
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Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Pff, Slaanesh is waaaaaay more fun |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
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@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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But Slaanesh doesn't have a battle cry I'd be comfortable saying in public. |
Originally Posted by Nos482
Pff, Slaanesh is waaaaaay more fun
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Since the Pretorians were first added to the game, up to and including the release of GR and I19 |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Since when?
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Originally Posted by Signpost
You speak as though there is a model. Name it.
(and before you name the universal human rights, let me note something about it: Who decided it? Everyone, or a select few?) |
Any system that doesn't allow for every member of government to be removed by the will of the people is a moral failure, and is only a model for how not to build a society.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Nah, he´s not that bad.
We have several heads of state in the west that are worse. And pretty much none of them gets called evil here.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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The devs think otherwise |
Originally Posted by Nos482
Nah, he´s not that bad.
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| We have several heads of state in the west that are worse. And pretty much none of them gets called evil here. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
no comment...otherwise I´d risk a ban.
Probably said already too much...
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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They're called universal because it's expected to be applied universally. It doesn't not speak for the credibility of said rights. So long as it's decided by a group of people which every member of the human race cannot choose, it is not legitimate, as you just mentioned in your following statement.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Since the Pretorians were first added to the game, up to and including the release of GR and I19
Universal human rights are called universal for a reason Any system that doesn't allow for every member of government to be removed by the will of the people is a moral failure, and is only a model for how not to build a society. |
And as for your second statement, that depends on your definition of government. A similar society can be found in every household, where the parents make the decisions for the child. Are you claiming that the common model of the family is a model for how not to build a family?
In addition, if you mention "the will of the people", if the will of the people decided that we should obliterate or enslave a minority population because it's been causing so many problems, should that be done? Is that morally right?
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Since when is it evil to protect your citizens from a world destroyed by violent mutated tree-huggers and from extra-dimensional invaders who want to remove you from power merely because your alternate-dimensional self didn't have to make the same tough decisions you did?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Since the Pretorians were first added to the game, up to and including the release of GR and I19
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Universal human rights are called universal for a reason
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Just off the top of my head, I can't actually think of any that come anywhere close to the evil shown Tyrant - sure, there have been some in the past that were big on that whole dictatorship, repression, brainwashing, torture, mass-murder and genocide and world conquest thing, but I don't think they're really thought of as models of good govenrment.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Every human being wants to be free to live their own life - freedom is the one basic requirement for everyone, because everything else comes from it.|
Originally Posted by Signpost
They're called universal because it's expected to be applied universally. It doesn't not speak for the credibility of said rights. So long as it's decided by a group of people which every member of the human race cannot choose, it is not legitimate, as you just mentioned in your following statement.
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| And as for your second statement, that depends on your definition of government. A similar society can be found in every household, where the parents make the decisions for the child. Are you claiming that the common model of the family is a model for how not to build a family? |
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| In addition, if you mention "the will of the people", if the will of the people decided that we should obliterate or enslave a minority population because it's been causing so many problems, should that be done? Is that morally right? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's evil when the "protection" involves murder, torture, slavery, repression and brainwashing - especially when there's a perfectly good sonic barrier that's doing the actual protecting.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Since when is it evil to protect your citizens from a world destroyed by violent mutated tree-huggers and from extra-dimensional invaders who want to remove you from power merely because your alternate-dimensional self didn't have to make the same tough decisions you did?
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The crimes of Tyrant and his stormtroopers are done to protect the dictatorship, not the people they're oppressing.
If there was no mass-murder, no "disappearances", no repression, no torture, no brainwashing, no slavery, no propaganda, the sonic barrier would still be there, and the Resistance wouldn't exist, because they'd have no reason to fight to be free if they were actually free - instead of humans fighting each other, they'd be united to drive back the Devouring Earth.
There's a total disconnect between the crimes against humanity that Tyrant and his stiff-armed thugs are carrying out 24/7 and the actual threat of the Devouring Earth.
Tyrant has defeated the Hamidon, and there's a sonic barrier protecting the people and their city - everything else the dictatorship does is designed to keep it in power, and impose Tyrant's insane hatred and fear of humanity and free will on the people he's enslaved.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And yet, it's also one of the basic requirements which cannot be maintained. To put simply. If someone breaks that basic tenant of freedom, what can you do to solve that problem? Nothing, unless you also break that tenant. A society built entirely on trust and faith cannot function, simply it relies on everyone to cooperate; something which cannot be assumed.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Every human being wants to be free to live their own life - freedom is the one basic requirement for everyone, because everything else comes from it.
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Tyrant and Mother Mayhem treat adults like children
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| No, because that would be harming others - killing isn't a moral solution to anything. |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's evil when the "protection" involves murder, torture, slavery, repression and brainwashing - especially when there's a perfectly good sonic barrier that's doing the actual protecting.
The crimes of Tyrant and his stormtroopers are done to protect the dictatorship, not the people they're oppressing. If there was no mass-murder, no "disappearances", no repression, no torture, no brainwashing, no slavery, no propaganda, the sonic barrier would still be there, and the Resistance wouldn't exist, because they'd have no reason to fight to be free if they were actually free - instead of humans fighting each other, they'd be united to drive back the Devouring Earth. There's a total disconnect between the crimes against humanity that Tyrant and his stiff-armed thugs are carrying out 24/7 and the actual threat of the Devouring Earth. Tyrant has defeated the Hamidon, and there's a sonic barrier protecting the people and their city - everything else the dictatorship does is designed to keep it in power, and impose Tyrant's insane hatred and fear of humanity and free will on the people he's enslaved. |
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Some people want to be free to live their own life. Most people want the illusion of freedom which a ruling government offers them. Even you, Golden Girl, do not actually want the freedom you claim everyone wants.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Every human being wants to be free to live their own life
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The people that actually want freedom do things like live alone at Walden Pond, or donate all of your money to charity before going to live in the Alaskan wilderness. And yet Thoreau was living just outside of a town, and only lived by Walden Pond for two years. And Christopher McCandless starved to death within months of reaching Alaska.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If there was no mass-murder, no "disappearances", no repression, no torture, no brainwashing, no slavery, no propaganda, the sonic barrier would still be there, and the Resistance wouldn't exist, because they'd have no reason to fight to be free if they were actually free
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The difference between freedom fighters and guerrillas is PR.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I want to clarify something here:
My problem wasn't with morality or the restrictions thereof, but more the recurring problem that we are, in effect, lackeys. This was a BIG problem with City of Villains, in that the entire narrative assumes we want to join Arachnos very much. Everything we do is to earn "brownie points with the Spiders," work for Arachnos officials or carry favours for Arachnos. At the time, the excuse for this servitude was that the game didn't really support our ability to choose.
"OK" I thought, "I could see that. Maybe some day in the future, we could get the ability to choose, so that I can choose to NOT be someone's lackey." Flash forward five years, and I now have a choice... In who to be a lackey for. It's not the morality of the choices that bothers me - that's actually pretty well done. It's the fact that this morality is always subservient to faction loyalty. The simple fact that disagreeing with one action of the Resistance means I have to jump ship and join the loyalists is what destroys the sense of moral weight. Why am I able to smack the Crusaders in one of the Warden arcs and never have to switch sides, but if I choose to stop Katie Douglass - a woman who isn't even affiliated with the Resistance - I have to become a Loyalist why?
The choices we are given are not between write and wrong or moral and immoral. They're between Resistance and Loyalist. I can never have MY OWN agenda and MY OWN ideology within the resistance. I can only ever share the group think that defines the whole movement. I say this, because it's impossible to oppose the resistance without leaving the resistance. You can never try to change the resistance from within, you can never hold your own morality, because the moment you diverge, you are OUT.
Now, I could understand if the Resistance and the Loyalist were so fundamentalist-minded that they would not tolerate any divergent thought... If they weren't divided into disagreeing factions to begin with! And if that weren't bad enough, my choices are always refracted through faction identity first and morality second.
Now, I know what you're thinking - If I don't want to be loyal to the Resistance or the Loyalist agenda, what then? How about fighting for Praetoria in MY OWN way? Or how about giving me the choice of "other," where "other" depends on the moral choice. Do I destroy the the Enriche plant or leave it be? How about I contact the Syndicate and let them plant their own mind-control drugs so people love THEM, instead of Cole? Do I tell people about Cole's invasion because "the Resistance" or suppress the information because "the Loyalists?" Why not convince Kang to reveal the information only to the PPD, the T.E.S.T. and the Seers, so we don't spread panic among the population but still undermine Cole's law enforcement arm?
Really, what bothers me is that every moral choice can be explained as I just did. This Destroyer is now cured. You can spare him because the Resistance, or you can punish him because the Loyalists. The ability to choose which was supposed to give us options - options I'd originally interpreted as being with a faction or AGAINST a faction - turned out to be two sides of the same coin. I don't want to belong to any one faction, that's one of the core complaints I had with CoV and its original premise of "allowing" you to join existing villain factions, and that has not changed. Choosing between the Resistance Wardens, Resistance Crusaders, Loyalist Responsibility or Loyalist Power is not a whole lot more than choosing between Ghost Widow, Captain Mako, Black Scorpion or Pappa Roach - whatever you choose, you still "belong."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd say it's mostly because you ARE a lackey in a sense, because you're like only security level 20 or under. Maybe if you're more experienced..
(also, hopefully the incarnate system deals with this, since you have inherently proven yourself to have more potential as a non-lackey than Statesman and Recluse..)
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If and when that happens. And, really, there is no narrative mandate that you HAVE to be a lackey. Certainly, allowing players to be if they so chose, that's just fine, but why continually create content that places us in the service of still more people? First it was joining Arachnos, then it was joining the Vanguard, then it was joining Ouroboros, then it was joining the Midnight club, and now it's joining the Resistance or the Loyalists. I'm sick and tired of joining other people's organisations.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
I'd say it's mostly because you ARE a lackey in a sense, because you're like only security level 20 or under. Maybe if you're more experienced...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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know what, get 20 and go Rogue... they are basically mercenaries and do only what they want.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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If you dislike all these content, then do AE, newspaper/radio mishes, or street-sweep. It's an unfortunate fact that certain organizations are in charge of certain important events, so they won't allow people to anyhow go in and mess things up. Also, I don't think you need to join Vanguard or Ouroboros to do Apex and Tin Mage, so you can consider yourself a merc there.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If and when that happens. And, really, there is no narrative mandate that you HAVE to be a lackey. Certainly, allowing players to be if they so chose, that's just fine, but why continually create content that places us in the service of still more people? First it was joining Arachnos, then it was joining the Vanguard, then it was joining Ouroboros, then it was joining the Midnight club, and now it's joining the Resistance or the Loyalists. I'm sick and tired of joining other people's organisations.
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Lastly, being a member is a token symbol. It doesn't mean you have to agree with their stuff, just like you can still steal from the Midnight Club even if you're a member, or steal from the Traditionalists and work with the Restructurists even if you are a member of Vanguard.
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My question here is why does it have to be like this? One of the quintessential features of a good villain is being in charge of his own evil organisation. Any villain with aspirations for taking over the world (futile as they may be) needs his own evil organisation and secret lair. Having to try and take over the world from under Recluse's patronage is like having to take over the world while still living in your mother's basement. It may be appropriate for Hector Con Carne, but he's not exactly the height of respectable villainy.|
Originally Posted by Signpost
If you dislike all these content, then do AE, newspaper/radio mishes, or street-sweep. It's an unfortunate fact that certain organizations are in charge of certain important events, so they won't allow people to anyhow go in and mess things up.
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The OOOLD City of Heroes narrative had the right idea. You are a hero, you want to do good, go find people who can give you information on how to do good. You had an ID card, sure, but that was about it. Beyond that you could be a member of a super team, the owner of a corporation, the master of a magical cabal or just a solitary loner and the game never assumed either way. I CANNOT be "just a hero" in Praetoria, even if I were inclined to go for that, because I have to be affiliated with SOMEONE. The Tutorial asks us the question "Do you want to be Resistance or do you want to be a Loyalist?" It never asked us the question "Do you want to be neither?"
I pose the following question to you, in return: If I can be a member of the resistance, taking down PPD troops on sight, repeatedly raiding PPD installations, ministry buildings, Loyalist labs and Praetor installations, and yet still pose as a Loyalist with enough authority and clout to requisition supplies and amenities, why can't I pose as a Loyalist doing the same things WITHOUT doing them for the Resistance? Maybe I agree with Metronome that both the Resistance and the Loyalists need to go down, and the Syndicate with them, and that Praetoria's best interest is for all of them to disappear?
The system claims to give us choices, but the system only ever gives us the same one choice with two different names. The game is forcing me to choose which flavour of ice cream I want the most when I don't even like ice cream. It's putting me in false binary fallacies so designed to harken at a third option, but never actually offer it. It forces us to choose between other people's morality, not pick OUR morality, because we can only pick from morality positions that other people support. If my own personal morality happens to diverge from all presented, I am not given the choice to follow it, because my choices are not between two morality stances, but between two political factions with morality only a secondary effect of that choice.
Not everything can or should break down to "Resistance vs. Loyalists" any more so than anything should break down to "Longbow vs. Arachnos."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Nicely put.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
In the end, however, you do get to choose what your actions are. Your reasons for freeing the Seers do not have to coincide with the Resistance's reasons for freeing the seers. It could be that you're a loyalist doing the power branch and you want Praetoria less reliant on the PPD and more reliant upon the Powers Division.
You can make decisions entirely upon faction symbol, but you don't need to. |
Honestly I agree with this, I did all 4 of the storylines in Praetoria and I found myself deciding based on my own morality, the affect it had on the political landscape, Power VS Reponsibility, Warden VS Crusader, PPD VS Resistance, all that was more big picture stuff, but my main thing was "what is the morality of this, what would my character decide, would me character even care about the ramifications for the factions.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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The real problem is with the paradigm of missions in general. Missions are entirely reactionary, and while many of the tips are written to try to get around that, it's still true. This is fine for heroes, because heroes are reactionary by nature: villain attacks, so hero saves the day. Villains are proactive by nature... in stories. But the system by which you get a mission and complete it does not lend itself to a character developing their own plan for world domination or destruction or sheer havoc.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The OOOLD City of Heroes narrative had the right idea. You are a hero, you want to do good, go find people who can give you information on how to do good.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Once the dictatorship is overhtrown, the hardcore anarchists in the Resistance will just end up like the Freakshow - a violent but manageable threat - the majority of the Resistance fighters will just start living normal lives once they're free of Tyrant.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork