http://boards.cityofheroes.com/forumdisplay.php?f=603
I'll put it down there.
The opposition can fire away at me and I won't care.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I am very open to the idea that my very high level of annoyance(or nerd rage) is fueled by a bias towards the market.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Perhaps we may be biased due to our market love? It also seems to me this power is too good to hold away from everyone who wants it.
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But objectively there are so many applications for something like this. I will no longer have to delete recipes/salvage mid mission and can instead put them on the market for 1 influence. I normally solo so this won't be an issue stopping mid mission.
Or when I craft a hundred recipes at a time I can sit in my base and save myself countless loading screens.
And there are other uses as well, those are just the two obvious ones for me. Others uses will vary.
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You've got a pretty good point here about why something like this should be a Booster/Accolade power instead of a Vet power.|
Originally Posted by StormDevil
I just wanted to add my voice to the, "cool feature, but not as a Vet reward" crowd. Something like this would be better off as either part of a Booster Pack, or even better, as a sort of second tier Accolade (the workbench being the first). As a Booster, anyone for whom this feature has value could get it whenever they chose (and conversely be ignored by those for whom it has no value; think of it as the Praetorian Party Pack). As an Accolade, it could again be earned by anyone who puts in the time.
I know many, many 5 and 6 year vets who have no idea how to use Wents, or how the market works in general; I don't know very many people with the Field Crafter badge about whom I can say the same. |
As a Booster power anyone who directly wants it can buy it at any time.
As an Accolade power the marketeers can earn it (regardless if the badgers use it or not).
But as a Vet power old-timers are going to get it whether they want it or not.
My personal reason for thinking this was a "less than optimal" choice for a Vet award is that to me Vet awards should provide things that are clearly not possible to get/obtain any other way. Things like the Reveal power is a good example: it's a good Vet award because it gives us something that has no equivalent in the rest of the game. On the other hand this Market power basically duplicates what the Market TP powers provide - a shortcut way to get to the market. I don't see this as being "unique" enough to qualify as a good Vet power.
Oh well, I'll probably make pretty good use out of it when I do get it. But for me I'll always wonder what better thing we could of gotten instead what amounts to a permanent Market TP power. *shrugs*
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I threw it down in the suggestions forum so have at it. I hope they open it up to those of you not hitting 84 soon.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I started about 6-8 weeks after launch, so it won't be long before I get this. Still, I'd like to see a base add-ons booster pack for $10 or something like that and put this in as one of the selling points. Just like so many others, I would love having a way to connect to the market from within my crafting/storage room in my base.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
I started last July. I wouldn't be seeing this for six and a half years. I don't have much expectation that this game will run long enough for me to ever see it.
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This is actually why some "weird" people like me have always favored Vet award system reform in this game to address people in your situation. I honestly doubt much if anything will actually change, but it's always worth letting people know that there are some old-timers like me who understand and sympathize with the basic "unfairness" of the current system.
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Originally Posted by seebs
I don't have much expectation that this game will run long enough for me to ever see it.
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The key difference here is that the market TP powers take you to the market, but don't bring you back. The / command will let you use the market and end up in the same place where you started. That may be good or bad, but it's definitely different. I sometimes use the market TP as a way to travel, without even visiting the market. But oftentimes, like in the Shard, coming back from the market to the mission is a big pain in the rear. This / command will be a huge benefit in the unlikely event that I ever try to run another Shard TF.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But for me I'll always wonder what better thing we could of gotten instead what amounts to a permanent Market TP power. *shrugs*
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Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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Yes, I actually realized the fundamental difference. I just didn't bother to emphasize it. Like you I've only been playing this game for 81 months so forgive me if I don't FORGET too many things like this. |
Originally Posted by peterpeter
The key difference here is that the market TP powers take you to the market, but don't bring you back. The / command will let you use the market and end up in the same place where you started. That may be good or bad, but it's definitely different. I sometimes use the market TP as a way to travel, without even visiting the market. But oftentimes, like in the Shard, coming back from the market to the mission is a big pain in the rear. This / command will be a huge benefit in the unlikely event that I ever try to run another Shard TF.
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Still (as I mentioned in the Suggestions thread SwellGuy started on this) I don't really accept that the "value added" this Vet award is going to provide beyond the current Market TP powers is really unique/special/huge enough to justify it taking a spot of one of our post 7 year Vet awards. *shrugs*
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This, a thousand times over.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Something this awesome is too good to be a vet reward. So horse-**** to whoever made this decision.
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Won't be getting this for another year at least.
Please make this available ingame somehow, by achieving a certain amount of Market badges or inf accumulated through Market sales (Inf cap?) or whatnot.
Waaaay too good for a vet reward.
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If we have back to back posts from people saying it's too good to be a vet reward and not good enough to be a vet reward, then I think the devs probably nailed it. 
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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Actually I said it was not unique/special enough to be a Vet award and Neuronia thought it was a "waaaay too good" enough power that it SHOULDN'T be Vet award.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
If we have back to back posts from people saying it's too good to be a vet reward and not good enough to be a vet reward, then I think the devs probably nailed it.
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The net result is that we BOTH thought it should NOT be a Vet award for two different reasons. We BOTH thought this should be a power that's obtainable via an Accolade badge, not a Vet award. I'd say the Devs managed to smash their thumb with their development hammer over this.
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It would be REALLY nice to have a market interface item for bases.....then I might actually enter mine once in a while to craft and sell. I just don't' like having to do all the loading and running back and forth.
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Maybe not. The AE slash command to bring up the AE interface doesn't work in bases, so this one may not work in bases either.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I am very open to the idea that my very high level of annoyance(or nerd rage) is fueled by a bias towards the market.
But objectively there are so many applications for something like this. I will no longer have to delete recipes/salvage mid mission and can instead put them on the market for 1 influence. I normally solo so this won't be an issue stopping mid mission. Or when I craft a hundred recipes at a time I can sit in my base and save myself countless loading screens. And there are other uses as well, those are just the two obvious ones for me. Others uses will vary. |
On another note. This will be nice to have, can't wait. Sadly due to a billing error that I didn't catch in time I'm now 1 month behind where I should be on vet rewards and that is so irritating!.
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
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The chance of bases getting any work done on them is about as good as nethergoat never playing the market ever again and just giving away all his inf to random people |
Originally Posted by Chymerus
It would be REALLY nice to have a market interface item for bases.....then I might actually enter mine once in a while to craft and sell. I just don't' like having to do all the loading and running back and forth.
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The base builders have been asking for various npcs/items for bases for oh at least 3 years now? Tailors, market interface, trainers, stores etc..
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Even if I'm the closest possible to get this Vet reward, I'd jump on the "make it a base feature" bandwagon without a second thought.
I would suggest, if the Devs have set it in stone to be a Vet Reward, is to make it a Vet reward base item like the picture frames and lil' flying jet.
So it's placeable only by a rewarded 84 vet but becomes a feature useable and appreciated by all FOR BASES!!!
*ahem* Sorry for caps, its the emotions....
It's as good as a vet reward as it would be for anything else.
Assuming it *will* be gated in some way, however they go about it would be greeted with vocal complaints by somebody.
Some 'other game' lets you buy remote AH access for a monthly fee. Imagine the doomcrying and whining that would trigger here.
That said, I wouldn't kick if you could buy it with $$$ or some suitably immense pile of inf. I won't be eligible until November (damn you, ED!) and would happily pick it up early if I could.
But in making it a vet reward requiring a nearly comical investment of time and money they're clearly stating that it's not something they want very many players having access to. As devs, that's their prerogative.
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No one really said the Devs couldn't do this as a high end Vet award if that was their prerogative. But I think your own use of the word "comical" highlights making almost anything a new Vet award is becoming irksome and comical to most players in this game. Frankly I'm expecting an ever-increasing level of dissatisfaction and push-back over even the most trivial Vet awards from now on. *shrugs*|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
But in making it a vet reward requiring a nearly comical investment of time and money they're clearly stating that it's not something they want very many players having access to. As devs, that's their prerogative.
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I think sooner or later the Devs will likely abandon further Vet awards in favor of offering anything new as microtransactions. Do the Devs want to keep a tiny fraction of "old timers" happy or the vast majority of newer players who'll never have a realistic chance to get the newest Vet awards? The choice between the two seems pretty obvious to me.
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I don't think many players care one way or another about vet rewards, the same way not many care one way or the other about the market itself.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
No one really said the Devs couldn't do this as a high end Vet award if that was their prerogative. But I think your own use of the word "comical" highlights making almost anything a new Vet award is becoming irksome and comical to most players in this game. Frankly I'm expecting an ever-increasing level of dissatisfaction and push-back over even the most trivial Vet awards from now on. *shrugs*
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I mean, I'm glad I've got the ones I've got, it's nice that they decided to throw a bone to long-time supporters of the game. But none of them are great enough to get worked up over.
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| I think sooner or later the Devs will likely abandon further Vet awards in favor of offering anything new as microtransactions. |
What they'll do is keep handing out little bonuses as vet rewards and produce shinier stuff for paid boosters. That way they keep the vets and the accountants happy.
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Do the Devs want to keep a tiny fraction of "old timers" happy or the vast majority of newer players who'll never have a realistic chance to get the newest Vet awards? The choice between the two seems pretty obvious to me.
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I thought everyone should care about merged markets, but forum activity indicated otherwise...I fear you're in the same boat with this personal crusade.
Anywho, vet rewards are a small investment for them to make in the continuing goodwill of the game's most loyal, reliable players. I'll be shocked if they mess with success.
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Actually you sort of missed my point. First you discount Vet awards as things players don't care about one way or the other then you vaguely imply that they are pretty much the only thing that keep long time players playing. Pick a side with this. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't think many players care one way or another about vet rewards, the same way not many care one way or the other about the market itself.
I mean, I'm glad I've got the ones I've got, it's nice that they decided to throw a bone to long-time supporters of the game. But none of them are great enough to get worked up over. Yes, they should by all means antagonize their most consistently loyal supporters, that's genius. What they'll do is keep handing out little bonuses as vet rewards and produce shinier stuff for paid boosters. That way they keep the vets and the accountants happy. You're assuming new players give a care about vet rewards just because you think they should. I thought everyone should care about merged markets, but forum activity indicated otherwise...I fear you're in the same boat with this personal crusade. Anywho, vet rewards are a small investment for them to make in the continuing goodwill of the game's most loyal, reliable players. I'll be shocked if they mess with success. |
If the overwhelming majority of players playing this game are NOT 81 month Vets (or even close to that) then why should the Devs keep giving those few people cool awards like the upcoming Remote Auction House award - an award that clearly more than a handful of older timers like you or me might care about?
As a 81 month Vet I'd gladly give up my elitist position of getting my horde of "goodwill" prizes every 3 months in favor of letting newer players have access to cool things that might motivate them to keep playing. I'd rather have lots of people happy to play the game to help it keep it going than have the Devs pander to a few old timers like me. The game isn't making its money off a handful of older timers like us - it makes its money off newer people who might decide to leave because they realize they have years to wait to get cool awards and decide it's not worth waiting. *sigh*
P.S. I realize you had more of an interest in the whole merged market thing but for the record I never really cared much one way or the other about that issue. Much like these Vet awards that was never a "personal crusade" of mine. It's just common sense - as time goes on the Vet system becomes more a comical bunch of things most people won't ever have rather than an enticement to keep the oldest players around. The "success" you talk about is slowly becoming a symbol of old guard elitism that this game doesn't really need.
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I didn't say either of those things.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually you sort of missed my point. First you discount Vet awards as things players don't care about one way or the other then you vaguely imply that they are pretty much the only thing that keep long time players playing. Pick a side with this.
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I don't think very many players care about it the way you do, and they're nice perks to show appreciation for longtime players.
The two statements are not incompatible.
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| If the overwhelming majority of players playing this game are NOT 81 month Vets (or even close to that) then why should the Devs keep giving those few people cool awards like the upcoming Remote Auction House award - an award that clearly more than a handful of older timers like you or me might care about? |
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| As a 81 month Vet I'd gladly give up my elitist position of getting my horde of "goodwill" prizes every 3 months in favor of letting newer players have access to cool things that might motivate them to keep playing. |
Giving them stuff up front doesn't motivate them to do much except get bored faster and leave.
If the game is fun, they'll stick around, if it isn't they'll leave.
Having an extra couple of attacks or some oddball costume pieces aren't going to alter that equation enough to matter.
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| I'd rather have lots of people happy to play the game to help it keep it going than have the Devs pander to a few old timers like me. |
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| The game isn't making its money off a handful of older timers like us - it makes its money off newer people who might decide to leave because they realize they have years to wait to get cool awards and decide it's not worth waiting. |
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| P.S. I realize you had more of an interest in the whole merged market thing but for the record I never really cared much one way or the other about that issue. Much like these Vet awards that was never a "personal crusade" of mine. |
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You keep saying things like "players like goals" then turn around and try to dismiss Vet awards as things that "aren't going to alter that equation enough to matter". If they don't matter that much then why not give future awards intended for the Vet system out for "free" as you said (or as microtransactions as I said)? As long as you keep trying to have this thing both ways there's not much point in reasoning with you about this. *shrugs*|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't think very many players care about it the way you do, and they're nice perks to show appreciation for longtime players.
The two statements are not incompatible. |
I'll conclude this line of relatively unproductive discussion with the following:
Sure the game should try to make ALL players happy to play this game. I'm just making the point (that for some reason annoys you) that as a 81 month Vet I don't keep playing this game in order to get elitist toys every 3 months. If you think you're entitled to that kind of thing that's your deal, not mine. If the game ever decided to rethink that increasingly broken system let's just say I wouldn't be bothered by that.
If you believe it's become MY crusade to see the Vet system of this game reformed into something that doesn't solidify a "have / have not" culture then I guess I'll be guilty as charged on that one. Vaguely accusing me of this (given my general posting history) is somewhat laughable, but if it makes you feel better to label me that way then knock yourself out with that.
P.S. Here's a bit of a hint for you: since I AM an 81 month Vet I can safely act as a Devil's Advocate for this issue because I know that if nothing changes I'm still going to have all the Vet toys ASAP regardless. It's easy enough for someone like me who benefits from this elitist system to be sympathetic to those who are going to be screwed by it. At least I won't ever be accused of being an intractable defender of entitlement in that regard.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
You keep saying things like "players like goals" then turn around and try to dismiss Vet awards as things that "aren't going to alter that equation enough to matter".
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Players can like goals (and do, as the popularity of MMOs verifies) while simultaneously understanding that the goals represented by the vet reward system are fairly minor.
Minor goals still work as a motivator.
Exhibit A, badges.
Nobody's going to ragequit because they can't get all the badges, and yet badges have a devoted following.
Likewise, nobody's going to ragequit because they can't have this or that vet reward. They're nice, they're something to aspire to, and they're not a big enough deal to freak out over.
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| If they don't matter that much then why not give future awards intended for the Vet system out for "free" as you said (or as microtransactions as I said)? As long as you keep trying to have this thing both ways there's not much point in reasoning with you about this. *shrugs* |
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| Sure the game should try to make ALL players happy to play this game. I'm just making the point (that for some reason annoys you) that as a 81 month Vet I don't keep playing this game in order to get elitist toys every 3 months. |
There have been several periods over the past few years where I would absolutely have un-subbed for a bit if not for the desire to keep up my vet rewards. The only reason I'm posting right now is because of vet rewards- a pal gave me a free year of Some Other Game and playing level catch-up has been absorbing all my free time. CoH isn't a big expense, but there are absolutely other things I could spend that money on while I'm basically not playing it at all. So in this case their vet reward system is paying off handsomely, and I'll wager it does so in many other cases.
If it didn't work, it wouldn't exist- or rather, they'd just hand out a badge and maybe some merits every few months and use the energy spent on the 'better' rewards elsewhere.
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| If you think you're entitled to that kind of thing that's your deal, not mine. If the game ever decided to rethink that increasingly broken system let's just say I wouldn't be bothered by that. |
What's entitlement is wanting rewards other players have spent years 'earning' for doing nothing.
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| If you believe it's become MY crusade to see the Vet system of this game reformed into something that doesn't solidify a "have / have not" culture then I guess I'll be guilty as charged on that one. Vaguely accusing me of this (given my general posting history) is somewhat laughable, but if it makes you feel better to label me that way then knock yourself out with that. |
I don't have to say anything, your actions speak for themselves.
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My City Was Gone
I just can't believe people are actually proposing that new game features should be made microtransactions instead of free. Thank you very much but, regardless of my 6.5 years of subscription thusfar, that is an unacceptable idea.
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Is it sad that I don't know where Suggestions go? I'm sort of a niche poster on the boards.