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I'd like to hear more about your thoughts behind this. In my experience, my /SD toons way outsurvive my /WP toons (brutes, scrappers) on ITFs. The WP, even at soft-cap, still gets hit when surrounded and quickly goes down to Romans. The /SD can take more a beating due to DDR before failing and dying. At least that's been my experience, on my soft-caped Kat/WP vs. DM/Shield or Elec/Shield. Open to your thinking, though.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Sure, an SD at the softcap is pretty survivable, but a well built WP at the softcap is even moreso(and Inv is a step above). |
Especially would like to hear your take on Invuln. I've seen many /Invuln scraps eat dirt quickly on ITFs. I'm still trying to figure out what benefits, if any, /Invuln actually offers over /SD, /SR, or /WP.
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This fits my experiences, too.
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Originally Posted by Whisky_Jack
My main is a 50 FM/WP scrapper and I've also got a half dozen or so shield scrappers at 50 as well including a heavily IO'd ElM/SD scrapper. The achilles heel of /WP is DDR. My /WP scrapper has softcapped S/L defense, a top notch attack chain, serious resists and godly regen, but I found myself floundering somewhat in the 40-50 range by running into Cimorians, Arachnos and other defense debuffing enemies. Against everything else in the game, level 1-50, it was easy mode and that was before I started IO'ing him and he only got stronger as I started throwing in all those kinetic combats.
My IO'd out ElM/Shielder by comparison doesn't seem to break a sweat with those guys after I got his DDR up in the high 80's. True, he'll never have the same regen as the /WP scrapper, but he more than makes up for it with the added offense. It's the reason I have one IO'd /WP scrapper at 50 and 7 IO'd shield scrappers at 50. I'll say this though, in terms of survivability, 1-40 is easy mode for willpower guys and they are the kings. Also for the cheapskate, /wp is cheap and strong out of the box. But once you get the shield to the 40's, and invest some in IO's, it's a beautiful thing to see and play. |
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Performance of random PuG people means as little as performance of random forumites.| Especially would like to hear your take on Invuln. I've seen many /Invuln scraps eat dirt quickly on ITFs. I'm still trying to figure out what benefits, if any, /Invuln actually offers over /SD, /SR, or /WP. |
Seriously though, invul offers a reasonable amount of DDR (50%), great S/L resistances (70%ish), decent resistances to everything else but psi (30%ish), great maxHP (capped), and if you build for the S/L softcap with one foe in range, any additional enemy will give you a buffer against defense debuffs. I think I haven't died in an ITF on my invul for months if not years, and I TF daily.
More importantly for teaming, much like SD it offers (over SR or WP) a very strong aura that will keep stuff on you by simply walking next to them, no matter how hard crazy fire blasters might try to grab the aggro ; and when teaming, you often get defense buffs putting you way above the softcap and heals, at which point having good maxHP and good resistances are the best way to improve your damage mitigation.
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Nihili, that's a nice, and expensive build. I wonder how you find your endurance issues though? That's a looong net gain on 0-100% endurance with that heavy usage, right? |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Shield actually has more resistances than WP for everything but S/L and psi, although I often see Shield builds making (what I think is) the mistake of not slotting for resistances.
My shielders approximately end up with 45% def to all, 80%+ DDR, 35% S/L res (70% during T9), 20% F/C/E/N/T res (40% during T9), 30% slow res, 2000hp (2300 during T9), 300% regen and an AoE KD every 30 seconds. |
And you skipped Conserve power.... so how are you doing it?
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To the person who said maybe something was wrong with my build. I did a test last night and soloed +3 Carnie folk.... I landed on my butt twice, dead before I could hit OwtS.....
Looking at combat logs, it's as I suspect, a Master Illusionist brings out some junk, and perhaps is joined by another illusionist. Typically blinded, with the potential for a start of Spectral Wounds, I get double wacked by energy, or Psi....
-IF- that opening alpha gets through defense, I go down before I can hit an insp. It largely has to do with timing too... sometimes I may hold off on Siphon health a little too long with Carnies in particular. I find a I can go from hero to zero pretty fast with those alpha's.
On the other hand, I find my DM/Shield is very good with Arachnos and my DB/WP has issues..... kind of similar with Longbow. Not sure why....
Anyway, I'm still tweaking the DM/Shield but probably won't make a purple build for a long time.... and that's why this thread assumes no purps or ham.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
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DC on multiple targets is all it needs to be sustainable in actual gameplay, really.
| And you skipped Conserve power.... so how are you doing it? |
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Invuln has DDR and lots of buffer S/L defense alongside a massive HP buff. If you have an invuln at the softcap with 1 foe at range, it shouldn't have too much trouble at the ITF.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I'd like to hear more about your thoughts behind this. In my experience, my /SD toons way outsurvive my /WP toons (brutes, scrappers) on ITFs. The WP, even at soft-cap, still gets hit when surrounded and quickly goes down to Romans. The /SD can take more a beating due to DDR before failing and dying. At least that's been my experience, on my soft-caped Kat/WP vs. DM/Shield or Elec/Shield. Open to your thinking, though.
Especially would like to hear your take on Invuln. I've seen many /Invuln scraps eat dirt quickly on ITFs. I'm still trying to figure out what benefits, if any, /Invuln actually offers over /SD, /SR, or /WP. |
Willpower, with the HP accolade bonuses and softcapped def should experience less issues than SD does. Once SD gets hit by a big mob in the ITF it goes down quickly even with DDR, as it usually doesn't have a lot of buffer defense and has less to fall back on than WP(Regen). You may have gotten bad luck with one character over the other, had better teammates, or even had a lesser build on the WP compared with the SD.
Be sure though that with the HP mod of scrappers, the Invuln vs. WP vs. SD debate will be closer than on Brutes or Tankers.
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Regarding DDR on WP, the only times I've really had trouble w/my DB/WP (S/L capped) is when I jump in a big spawn of Romans before anyone else, and have to hold serve for an extended period of time. If the rest of the team follows quickly after, I've never had an issue, even though my def is long in the red, because my regen can keep up. And even alone, as long as I have SoW to pop, I'm fine.
I guess if I were looking to solo the ITF, I'd much rather have my DM/SD do it, but for most situations, my /WP does just fine, even w/o DDR. Not to say my defenses aren't taken down, often, but that's why you have layered defenses as WP (or Invul, or SD for that matter).
As for Invul specifically, 75% S/L resists against mostly lethal mobs seems like a pretty good mix, DDR or no. I haven't run my Invul scrapper through the ITF yet, but my Invul tank obviously has zero problems w/it, and maybe as a better corollary, my Stone tank out of Granite has capped S/L/E/N and around 50% DDR and has zero problems (I rarely hit Granite any more). Sure, more HPs for the tank & Rooted for more regen, but I would think an Invul scrapper w/higher S/L resists, and likely higher def #s w/mobs in range or Invinc would be almost comparable against Romans, if not the all the Nicti spawns.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Careful, DM boosts SD's survivability a LOT and patches the heal/regen hole the set has. A similar situation would be pairing wp with katana, at which point you can softcap to everything except psi, and the psi def/res would still be pretty high. Having said that, wp doesn't really have a hole, its got a little something of everything, which is why I'd say it has a survivability edge over SD from start to finish, all things being equal and not taking certain primary/secondary combos into consideration.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Example build for DM/SD, this assumes using the rech/heal uncommon :
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Powersets on their own, IO'd willpower will outsurvive IO'd SD overall. SD obviously will def cap, while with wp, you have to pick and choose, but you can softcap s/l and have around 35% def or more vs energy and fire/cold. This is eclipsed, imo, by the massive regeneration advantage wp has. If something doesn't kill you, you regen and keep rolling, if you get dinged up with SD, you need greens or heals of some kind. The survivability difference is very visible in situations vs defense busters like def debuffs or massive to hit bonuses. If I'm sitting in the middle of a bunch of venged nemesis, I'd much rather be on one of my WP's than one of my SD's. And we're seeing more of these defense busters in the new content, so it's not quite as rare as it used to be.
The bottom line is, WP is more survivable on its own because it has better layered defenses. Of course that is how it should be, because SD provides massive offensive boosts in the form of AAO and shield charge. They're both truly awesome sets, my two favorite by far.
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Irrelevant. I didn't include DM numbers in the numbers I posted.
| Careful, DM boosts SD's survivability a LOT and patches the heal/regen hole the set has. |
Not saying im on either side but...I recall Iggy having a Kat/WP do a double RWZ challenge while under a pylon. Just curious if a DM/SD could do the same.
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I have both WP & SD brutes, and here are my observations from countless hours on the ITF.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Willpower, with the HP accolade bonuses and softcapped def should experience less issues than SD does. Once SD gets hit by a big mob in the ITF it goes down quickly even with DDR, as it usually doesn't have a lot of buffer defense and has less to fall back on than WP(Regen). You may have gotten bad luck with one character over the other, had better teammates, or even had a lesser build on the WP compared with the SD.
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All points refer to unsupported combats at full aggro cap, assumes full IO builds.
Willpower's regen and resistances, once defenses are crashed (and they will crash unless you pop lucks/have buffs/etc) is not sufficient on it's own to survive.
However if you do hit SoW, use Darkest Night, or carry T3 Oranges and have a good enough build - you can survive full negative DEF crashes.
SD on the otherhand will see DEF crashes much less frequently, and will recover more quickly from them - SC with it's massive area KB on a high rech provides enough cushion to help prevent DEF crashes even further, not to mention simply removing the threats outright by killing them faster.
The weak point for SD is actually massed elite bosses, who have tons of hit points, an accuracy bonus and therefore a better chance to hit you than you normally face when softcapped (something like 6-7% I think), hit like freight trains and laugh at knockback - however the above tactics employed by willpower: T9, T3 Oranges, Darkest Night can all play a major factor in survivability.
The verdict?
A capable player with a solid build should very rarely die using either secondary.
For me, that means I end up playing SD more often - because if I'm not going to die on either one, I might as well add more offense.
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Totally untrue. He did a pylon while under a double RWZ challenge (and then finished off the spawns). |
Originally Posted by VeryBadDay
Not saying im on either side but...I recall Iggy having a Kat/WP do a double RWZ challenge while under a pylon.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I would say just roll a /sr and call it a day.
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Thank you Werner, I was waaaay off! You just crushed my world! First my zodiac sign changes, now this! :-D But seriously, could a SD handle such a feat?
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Originally Posted by Werner
Totally untrue. He did a pylon while under a double RWZ challenge (and then finished off the spawns).
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I'm going to say "no way", but I'd be happy to have someone prove me wrong. Often, when someone says something is impossible, Scrappers hear it as "make it so."
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Originally Posted by VeryBadDay
Thank you Werner, I was waaaay off! You just crushed my world! First my zodiac sign changes, now this! :-D But seriously, could a SD handle such a feat?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I quoted the post where you supplied a DM/SD build...
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Irrelevant. I didn't include DM numbers in the numbers I posted.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I have both WP & SD brutes, and here are my observations from countless hours on the ITF.
All points refer to unsupported combats at full aggro cap, assumes full IO builds. Willpower's regen and resistances, once defenses are crashed (and they will crash unless you pop lucks/have buffs/etc) is not sufficient on it's own to survive. However if you do hit SoW, use Darkest Night, or carry T3 Oranges and have a good enough build - you can survive full negative DEF crashes. SD on the otherhand will see DEF crashes much less frequently, and will recover more quickly from them - SC with it's massive area KB on a high rech provides enough cushion to help prevent DEF crashes even further, not to mention simply removing the threats outright by killing them faster. The weak point for SD is actually massed elite bosses, who have tons of hit points, an accuracy bonus and therefore a better chance to hit you than you normally face when softcapped (something like 6-7% I think), hit like freight trains and laugh at knockback - however the above tactics employed by willpower: T9, T3 Oranges, Darkest Night can all play a major factor in survivability. The verdict? A capable player with a solid build should very rarely die using either secondary. For me, that means I end up playing SD more often - because if I'm not going to die on either one, I might as well add more offense. |
I agree that ITF's and large groups of cim's create serious problems for wp toons, moreso than SD's, but SD isn't surviving indefinitely in a mob of cim's without a heal of some kind either.
I also prefer SD, because being a scrapper lover, I enjoy offense and killing things, and SD is clearly superior in what it brings to that table. But for pure survivability based on the powerset alone, I would still argue that wp edges sd by a bit from start to finish, all things being equal. But the argument that once fully io'd, both sets are virtually unkillable except in extreme situations, so why not take the set that is clearly superior offensively, is certainly valid, but then you might want to consider the recent trend of the newer high level content containing more than average defense busting enemies, which makes sd's survivability drop faster than wp's.
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Yeah. They mention Cims, but no one mentions those Shadow Shard enemies.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I agree that ITF's and large groups of cim's create serious problems for wp toons, moreso than SD's, but SD isn't surviving indefinitely in a mob of cim's without a heal of some kind either.
I also prefer SD, because being a scrapper lover, I enjoy offense and killing things, and SD is clearly superior in what it brings to that table. But for pure survivability based on the powerset alone, I would still argue that wp edges sd by a bit from start to finish, all things being equal. But the argument that once fully io'd, both sets are virtually unkillable except in extreme situations, so why not take the set that is clearly superior offensively, is certainly valid, but then you might want to consider the recent trend of the newer high level content containing more than average defense busting enemies, which makes sd's survivability drop faster than wp's. |
But agreed. I know I get jealous of the damage any shielder puts out, compared to me WP :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I agree, although you only need to survive long enough to kill everything. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I agree that ITF's and large groups of cim's create serious problems for wp toons, moreso than SD's, but SD isn't surviving indefinitely in a mob of cim's without a heal of some kind either.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I also prefer SD, because being a scrapper lover, I enjoy offense and killing things, and SD is clearly superior in what it brings to that table. But for pure survivability based on the powerset alone, I would still argue that wp edges sd by a bit from start to finish, all things being equal.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But the argument that once fully io'd, both sets are virtually unkillable except in extreme situations, so why not take the set that is clearly superior offensively, is certainly valid, but then you might want to consider the recent trend of the newer high level content containing more than average defense busting enemies, which makes sd's survivability drop faster than wp's.
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Hopefully they will mix it up a bit and not solely focus all new content on foiling defense.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Yeah. They mention Cims, but no one mentions those Shadow Shard enemies.
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I will say though that I thought of this thread again last night... in an Arachnos mission fighting +3 bosses.... An Executioner boss actually Placated me, an Executioner Strike got through, I was hit for well over 1000 damage.... before I could hit Siphon Health, I died...
Looked at the combat log and saw he did a beam volley attack that hit me 3 times. So in the span of.... I would have to guess... (2 seconds?), I was dirt napping.
Such is the life of defense. This is what I like better about Willpower. In those situations I will have reaction time. Now to be honest the beauty of Dual Blades is it is a form of control. If you time your knockdowns, it is a great form of soft control. BUT if things do get through your defense, unlike shields, you will probably have enough damage mitigation with Willpower to take this sort of alpha.
So my shield guy rips through this mission, then the end Executioner boss gets through with a placate and a follow up that puts me on my back... such is the nature of defense I suppose.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
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I disagree.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I agree that ITF's and large groups of cim's create serious problems for wp toons, moreso than SD's, but SD isn't surviving indefinitely in a mob of cim's without a heal of some kind either.
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As a matter of fact, I ran one of my fave's, a MA/wp scrapper, through a pug ITF last night. I routinely took on whole spawns of cimmy's, solo. If I started to have a cascade failure (rare, I think it happened three times the whole run) I solved it by hopping out of the spawn and heading for the next spawn. By the time I got there, the cascade had vanished, as it usually does, and I was back to face-stompin' goodness. Mobility is your friend.
In the cyst mission I steamrolled until I got bored, then I spiked crystals solo.
In the general mission I spiked the first three generals, solo.
I also tanked the comp and the final LR with all three of the nikti shootin' at me.
Trust me, wp with equal investment is WAY tougher than SD, with the possible exception of a bs/sd.
Maybe.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
I disagree.
As a matter of fact, I ran one of my fave's, a MA/wp scrapper, through a pug ITF last night. I routinely took on whole spawns of cimmy's, solo. If I started to have a cascade failure (rare, I think it happened three times the whole run) I solved it by hopping out of the spawn and heading for the next spawn. By the time I got there, the cascade had vanished, as it usually does, and I was back to face-stompin' goodness. Mobility is your friend. |
If you have to run away, you have been defeated.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Trust me, wp with equal investment is WAY tougher than SD, with the possible exception of a bs/sd.
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I have multiples of both, I have Brute versions - which favor WP even more and I wholly disagree with you.
Everything you listed is routine gameplay and shouldn't pose a difficulty to any scrapper secondary, much less WP or SD.
Edit : that was in reply to mauk2's experience in a pug ITF.
My main is a 50 FM/WP scrapper and I've also got a half dozen or so shield scrappers at 50 as well including a heavily IO'd ElM/SD scrapper. The achilles heel of /WP is DDR. My /WP scrapper has softcapped S/L defense, a top notch attack chain, serious resists and godly regen, but I found myself floundering somewhat in the 40-50 range by running into Cimorians, Arachnos and other defense debuffing enemies. Against everything else in the game, level 1-50, it was easy mode and that was before I started IO'ing him and he only got stronger as I started throwing in all those kinetic combats.
My IO'd out ElM/Shielder by comparison doesn't seem to break a sweat with those guys after I got his DDR up in the high 80's. True, he'll never have the same regen as the /WP scrapper, but he more than makes up for it with the added offense. It's the reason I have one IO'd /WP scrapper at 50 and 7 IO'd shield scrappers at 50.
I'll say this though, in terms of survivability, 1-40 is easy mode for willpower guys and they are the kings. Also for the cheapskate, /wp is cheap and strong out of the box. But once you get the shield to the 40's, and invest some in IO's, it's a beautiful thing to see and play.