Quote:
Please continue.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
a) Some of them are simple, it's not that women can't drive tanks, it's that you don't want to put men and women together in the tanks because it gets HOT in tanks. You will sweat! Shirts will be taken off. Now imagine mixed sexes and the staring! O.O
|
Quote:
| c) You know how few bad men can ruin everything for the other men? Same rule applies for women. |
I have often wondered what would happen if the United States was ever invaded by a country that fielded an all-female army. I'm assuming it would go something like this: our men would shoot at them, but deliberately miss. Their women would get all hot and sweaty hauling their gear to the front lines, and have to take off their camos and pour ice cold water over their white undershirts. Our men would then retire to their bunks and surrender the field.
And if someone wants to remake Red Dawn for Cinemax, I expect my cut.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
1) You're making the argument, you have the burden of proof. Not me.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
There is a high suicide rate in young men, especially young white men. This has been thought to be linked mainly with the huge socio-economic pressures of being a male. And I'm pretty sure I could find the research on this topic if I wished to, but so could you, and I don't care enough about your opinion to go look up said information to change it when your likely not going to change your opinion regardless.
Let me ask you something though... let's say a woman and a man gets ***** and are in very similar circumstances. Who do you think is more likely to find help, be laughed at, and be believed? Why? And don't you think that that alone would do a great deal of damage to a person's mental state and is very sexist? Sexism is defined as showing favoritism or prejudice towards a party because of their gender. Ie. you are not treating both genders equally, whether positive or negative. |
2) **** is ****, regardless of the victim's gender. It's the sort of trauma that needs to be dealt with on an individual level. Resources exist for individuals who have been victimized, in various different forms. The shaming of victims of **** is reprehensible, regardless of gender. No professional who helps victims will trivialize ****, regardless of gender.
It may be more difficult for men to locate aid, but that's a matter of statistics. 91% of **** victims are female, and 99% of attackers are male. That does not mean that there are not resources for male victims, just that they are not as widely available, because of the relative rarity compared to female victims. If there are 10 support groups for women compared to 1 for men, that is not sexism, that's demography in action.
Here's one for you, Dur - one in six women will experience an assault in their lifetime. Only 16% will ever be reported. And only a quarter of assaults are by strangers. Most are by someone a woman knows. And women are ten times more likely to be a victim than a man. Those aren't hypotheticals, those are statistics from the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics.
3) Acknowledging that sexism exists, and that the primary victims of it are women, does not make me a sexist. No more than acknowledging that racism exists makes me a racist.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
You missed what I said or recognized it and tried to act like your answering it. I didn't say **** was trivialized. I pointed out that it is far worse for the men who do experience it, because it is made worse by that sexist factor against men of western culture.| 2) **** is ****, regardless of the victim's gender. It's the sort of trauma that needs to be dealt with on an individual level. Resources exist for individuals who have been victimized, in various different forms. The shaming of victims of **** is reprehensible, regardless of gender. No professional who helps victims will trivialize ****, regardless of gender. |
Quote:
|
It may be more difficult for men to locate aid, but that's a matter of statistics. 91% of **** victims are female, and 99% of attackers are male. That does not mean that there are not resources for male victims, just that they are not as widely available, because of the relative rarity compared to female victims. If there are 10 support groups for women compared to 1 for men, that is not sexism, that's demography in action. Here's one for you, Dur - one in six women will experience an assault in their lifetime. Only 16% will ever be reported. And only a quarter of assaults are by strangers. Most are by someone a woman knows. And women are ten times more likely to be a victim than a man. Those aren't hypotheticals, those are statistics from the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics. |
so yeah the statistics for that are all messed up.
Quote:
| 3) Acknowledging that sexism exists, and that the primary victims of it are women, does not make me a sexist. No more than acknowledging that racism exists makes me a racist. |
Quote:
This link would say male **** is more prevalent, as **** in prison happens that often.
|
Originally Posted by Smersh
1) You're making the argument, you have the burden of proof. Not me.
2) **** is ****, regardless of the victim's gender. It's the sort of trauma that needs to be dealt with on an individual level. Resources exist for individuals who have been victimized, in various different forms. The shaming of victims of **** is reprehensible, regardless of gender. No professional who helps victims will trivialize ****, regardless of gender. It may be more difficult for men to locate aid, but that's a matter of statistics. 91% of **** victims are female, and 99% of attackers are male. That does not mean that there are not resources for male victims, just that they are not as widely available, because of the relative rarity compared to female victims. If there are 10 support groups for women compared to 1 for men, that is not sexism, that's demography in action. Here's one for you, Dur - one in six women will experience an assault in their lifetime. Only 16% will ever be reported. And only a quarter of assaults are by strangers. Most are by someone a woman knows. And women are ten times more likely to be a victim than a man. Those aren't hypotheticals, those are statistics from the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics. 3) Acknowledging that sexism exists, and that the primary victims of it are women, does not make me a sexist. No more than acknowledging that racism exists makes me a racist. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I won't even bother with the first part of your response, as you're trying to use an extreme corner case to prove your point. I'll only way that any stigma that attaches to male victims is that of being feminized, and that only goes to prove my point.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
actually the number of women ***** in america according to the stats is 71/100,000 american women will be ***** which doesn't match up to the 90+ percent that is claimed elsewhere because elsewhere in the same source it is sated that 3% of all american men which equated to roughly 2.7 million men while the women number equates to roughly 106,500 women...which includes children...while the male number doesn't.
so yeah the statistics for that are all messed up. |
As to your statistical nonsense, you're wrong. No one, no reputable source, and not me, is claiming that 90%+ of women are victims of sexual assault. You're also making statements about the statistics that are not borne out by the statistics I am looking at. Go take a look.
Quote:
| I didn't say it made you sexist. Believing that women are the primary victim indicates to me you don't look for things beyond what is presented to you. Women will always be presented as the victim over any number of men, even when it is not true, just because it makes people react more strongly. |
Somehow, I don't think that's the case, Mister I Can't Be Bothered To Cite My Sources.
I think the point you are trying to make is one of sensationalism and media, where you would, in fact, have a valid point. But to try to apply that to me is utterly wrong.
I really have looked at, and thought about, gender roles in America in great depth. I've done the readings, rejected some things, incorporated others into my worldview. And, honestly, I can't say that men have it worse when it comes to sexism, and anyone who does believe that is, in my opinion, interested in reinforcing gender roles and benefiting from male privilege.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
That link is, well, devoid of any sort of real information. It's good for what it is, but there are no statistics there, and I wouldn't cite it as a source in this case.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
|
The best numbers I've seen for prison **** put it at about one in ten. It's outside my field of expertise, I will admit. The numbers I have seen for the rates of victimization in prison range from 5% to 25% of inmates. That wide of a variance makes me look hard at those statistics and say, "No one is really sure," but it is significantly higher than that of men in the general population.
I don't say that **** for men is not as bad. I will say that I hate it when people say that "x person should be thrown in jail and meet Bubba," indicating that **** should be an expected part of prison and an integral part of the punishment. That is a disgusting sentiment that has no place in a civilized society.
And, for those who missed the memo, **** is bad, regardless of the victim's gender.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
Go look up the covers of most publications from Chaos! or Broadsword Comics.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
...I'm pretty sure even with comic sexpots it's pretty rare that they're featured ***-first on the cover, and when they are they're called out on it by pretty much everyone.
|
They quite frankly sometimes make be embarrassed to be male.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
Comic books are still quite sexist, but they've been worse in earlier times, and are getting better, like society in general.
And like society in general, as long as people keep working towards proper equality, then we'll eventually get it in comic books.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Oh no it looks someone just Smershed all over this thread heh.
- Justice
Lastjustice- lvl 50 defender
Leader of Eternal Vigilance.
- Freedom
Lastjudgment - lvl 50 corruptor
Member of V.A.M.P.
Beware:NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!
Quote:
Most likely some dame. They're always makin' a mess of things.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Oh no it looks someone just Smershed all over this thread heh.
|
Am I right, fellas?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
Go look up the covers of most publications from Chaos! or Broadsword Comics.
They quite frankly sometimes make be embarrassed to be male. |
Apparently in the case of the Broadsword Comics series Tarot, the main contributors are a husband and wife team. Looking at the pictures, they are definitely pretty extreme by mainstream standards. However, it's hard for me to call it sexist because, at least here in New Orleans, I know plenty of girls who aspire to dress like this in a fantasy sense. Not in their every day attire of course, but as part of the sub-stream of people who hang out in the goth and industrial scenes. I think they'd more readily identify with the title character than with, say, the Invisible Woman. I think that's part of the difficulty of the situation. Some women do fantasize about being outrageously hot and overtly sexualized.
Some men also fantasize about getting all the hottest babes. In some part, this discussion seems to question whether they are allowed to. I tend to think they are. The larger concern is that mainstream comic books sell themselves as having a mass cultural appeal. They are less stories than they are franchises or brands. For the biggest selling characters, religion, politics, LGBT issues, and really anything that would threaten the ability to sell t-shirts or build roller coasters is off limits. To the degree that these issues are handled, it is usually in the schmaltziest, risk adverse way. This mass rubber stamping of imagery is I think why there is so much concern about portrayals. Sensitive issues are out, but what makes it "in" is sometimes disconcerting.
Even more complicated, the same character in the hands of many different authors and production teams can change relative positions constantly. A very complex, balanced character can be instantly undone by future editorial decisions. A character who made decisions that were intended to be meaningful at the time they were written can be rendered inane by new writers, and also (maybe especially) by the translation of the comic book to film and video games.
Quote:
That's what happens when we let them out of the kitchen heh.
|
Originally Posted by Cowman
Most likely some dame. They're always makin' a mess of things.
Am I right, fellas? |
- Justice
Lastjustice- lvl 50 defender
Leader of Eternal Vigilance.
- Freedom
Lastjudgment - lvl 50 corruptor
Member of V.A.M.P.
Beware:NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!
I think comics might just be xenophobic in general. I read an interesting article about unintentionally offensive comic book characters.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18502...haracters.html
It's cracked, so might be NSFW, depending on your workplace.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
All of those examples are from forty or so years ago. That's not comics fault that's the time period you're looking into. Yes comics are sexist back then but so were films, books and.. well.. everything. Holding up old comics as an idea that all comics today are sexist is silly. All you're really proving is that the 40's and 50's attitude to women was horrible by today's standards and that's not something that's a particularly revelatory find.
Holding up comic car crashes like Tarot doesn't help either. There's a misconception here that because some writers and artists can be misogynist that means they all are. It makes no sense either as we don't call To Kill a Mocking Bird sexist because American Pie was. The two films shouldn't even be in the same sentence together and judging one purely by the other is clearly ridiculous. We don't write off film as a medium because we get stupid things like "Meet the Spartans" and "Epic Movie", so we shouldn't do the same with comics.
There's plenty of comics with good female characters, start looking into DC and you'll find plenty. The New Question, Batwoman, Huntress, Scandal Savage, Non-Ultimate Wasp and Oracle I can name off the top of my head and they tend to fit in just fine as strong characters who aren't token in the least. There's a few writers who do them a great disservice (especially poor Wasp), but generally they fit into the teams great without being patronised or thrown into shameless fanservice. Okay maybe Scandal Savage get stick at times for being a woman, but she's on the Suicide Squad. They're not exactly all nice people and ribbing each other is just part of the comic. She gives as good as she gets, if not more so.
Speaking of the Suicide Squad no love for Amanda Waller? Talk about your atypical comic book woman, but she's by far the most badass in any comic she features in.
What I'm trying to say, in a rambly way, is that I can fairly safely say that "All" comics are not sexist. It's down to the writers and artists and frankly most people here know who the main offenders are. Don't write off good stuff just because there's bad!
There are no such characters as Sasha Bordeaux and Manhunter.
...Dude, not what I said. Also, Rawhide Kid was released in 2003, Shamrock in 1982, and all of the others in the mid 1970s.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Okay, a little later than I expected them to be made in but still the majority of those are forty years old. The Rawhide kid is the only one even slightly recent (7-8 years old) and yeah its pretty terrible, but I don't exactly deny that there's terrible comic books about even today. Just that you can't use the worst of a medium to judge all the rest of it, especially when you're refrencing stuff long out of date. You wouldn't do it for films, you wouldn't do it for music, so why are we doing it for Comics?
The most obvious answer is usually the correct one.
No one WANTS to see overly strong female characters with no sexual backboard to soften it. The Black Widow in both Ultimate (the original) and regular universes is as strong a female character as you could ask for, but they have to soften it by making her attractive.
And she STILL can't hold her own title. Wildstorm had a lot of strong women (probably too many) and look where they ended up. Isn't like they didn't keep trying either.
The "new" black Widow in the Ultimate U is a good example of why no one wants a really strong female character. She is too strong, too annoying. Men aren't interested in her and Women don't want to be her. Which in the long run is the point of fantasy. You either fantasize knowing this person or being this person.
Oddly Spider Girl was probably one of the strongest female superheros with no sexual draw in my memory. Well certainly the only one to pull her own title for 100 issues anyway. Privately she wasn't always sure of herself, but she always stood up for her beliefs even when everyone told her she was nuts.
I will agree that I object to the artist's depiction of many of the ongoing characters though. Many suffer from ongoing breast expansion issues that seem to have no upper limit. More isn't always better and destroys any variety in visual appearance. "I'm sorry but we can't allow any women in the X-Men who can still see their feet."
Strong personalities aren't overlooked or encouraged in women by our society. A female Lobo would not be popular (at least not for long). So blame society, they can take it.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Quote:
Let's just make sure we don't misinterpret "strong female character" with "a guy with bewbs".
|
Originally Posted by Ultra_Violence
Strong personalities aren't overlooked or encouraged in women by our society. A female Lobo would not be popular (at least not for long). So blame society, they can take it.
|
Quote:
Add Zenoscope and especially their Grimm Fairy Tales covers to that list.
|
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
Go look up the covers of most publications from Chaos! or Broadsword Comics.
They quite frankly sometimes make be embarrassed to be male. -np |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Quote:
::: steps quietly away from Cowman :::
|
Originally Posted by Cowman
Most likely some dame. They're always makin' a mess of things.
Am I right, fellas? |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Speaking of the Suicide Squad no love for Amanda Waller? Talk about your atypical comic book woman, but she's by far the most badass in any comic she features in.
|
Or Irmageddon in Top Ten.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
Quote:
How 'bout my favorite obsession.... I mean character.... Gert, from Runaways.
|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
This.
Or Irmageddon in Top Ten. |
Let me ask you something though... let's say a woman and a man gets ***** and are in very similar circumstances. Who do you think is more likely to find help, be laughed at, and be believed? Why? And don't you think that that alone would do a great deal of damage to a person's mental state and is very sexist?