When Your Team Needs a Tank....

Wow, I'm missing some responses due to posting times... sorry about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rylas Now, if you get to 40, and you have that feeling that you're aggro gathering could be better (for the sake of your team), then go with Earth Mastery and get Quicksand. It covers a huge area and will help keep people away from those ranged squishies. I wouldn't worry about your combo. It can work very well for teams. If you decide to IO it out, I'd suggest just going for +HP bonuses. They're cheap (and usually take 2-4 slots - mostly 3), and they would only solidify your tanks durability. Also, they're easy to get while still getting good power enhancement values.

So +HP is the way to go for teaming if I come into some influence?( I can't believe how much more expensive everything seemed to have become in the last year.)

And I guess the Taunt is a near must for me if I want to make this a team character. Interesting tip about the Earth Mastery. I'll keep it in mind if I stick this guy out into the 40's.

Just to pipe in on the DM bandwagon:

DM has several advantages going for it, in that it has several powers which requires minimal slotting to work well in general case, along with several notes on it.

1) Oppressive Gloom is an unslotted wonder: 1 acc IO and it's good to go. Using it, no minion-only group (unless immune to stun, like BP) can threaten you, period, even if they wander about. (the stun lasts FAR longer than the tick rate) Being a tank, the hp lost is negligible.
2) Dark Regeneration needs several slots, but doesn't need set slotting to work well (though of course, with the theft of essence proc, it works EXCEPTIONALLY well, but not essential.) Basic slotting would be acc and end reduction, the healing is sufficient in most cases to top you up even without upgrading the heal.
3) Non-IOed, resist sets fare better than defence sets in general, for one main reason: spike damage. Until defense sets can get enough IO sets to reach the softcap, spike damage is always a significant threat. Resists smooth out the damage curve, making it easier to toss in some greens in case of emergency.
4) Despite being a resist set, it also has some defense (in the form of Cloak of Darkness).
5) It protects a little against everything, even if it does protect some more than others. But you aren't going to fall flat the first time you meet some random mob. Well, you might get knocked around a bit if you haven't gotten anti-kb, but you aren;t going to fall entirely...
6) If you DO fall, you still have Soul Transfer as an "I win" button against anything without purple triangles of doom. (just a thought, would two soul transfers stun an AV regardless of it's triangle status?)

Of course, other than Dark, I'd also suggest Shield, simply because I think it is a little unbalanced..
1) Like dark, it protects against "almost" everything. Positional defenses protects against all but the rare few psychic non-positional attacks (Boo Malaise).
2) Like dark, it has both defense and resists, though in this case it focuses more on defense than resist.
3) Against All Odds, Phalanx Fighting are both unslotted wonders. AAO just need an end reduc, and Phalanx don't need anything if you aren't teaming, and doesn't really need it even so. (the 5% passive def-all is worth the price of admission, the team bonus is just that, a bonus)
4) Shield charge and AAO gives Fire a run for it's money in terms of offense. Unlike fire, it doesn't skimp on defense to get it's offense.
5) If you do decide to get into set IOs, defense sets have a MUCH easier time hitting softcapped values than non-defense sets. As an exercise, I just quickly tossed in a quick MIDs Shield/Elec/Fire build, and softcapped all positional defenses with only yellow recipes. Power pool slots were kick/tough/weave and combat jumping, took a ranged attack from ancillary. Plenty of slots and power picks left over. For reference: two defence IOs on all defence buffable powers, two reactive armour sets, one steadfast +def IO, three multistrike sets, one thunderstrike set. That's all you need to softcap. Certainly not optimal, but it works.

I'm going to take a step back here a moment on the discussion of a team tanker. In my opinion in order to be a good team tank you should control the pace of the team from group to group, attract and hold at least most of the aggro, have enough durability to survive and enough damage output to contribute to the team's kill speed.

That's a pretty simple template in theory; the practice is a good bit tougher as I'm sure any of my fellow experienced tankers can attest. In my experience where most tankers fall short is in pacing, or keeping the team moving efficiently from group to group and in aggro control. There isn't a tanker combination out there that if built well doesn't have enough durability and damage. Yes, some are tougher than others but the biggest problem I see, regardless of powerset, is setting the pace and controlling aggro.

Being a good team tank really isn't about powers, it's about tactics. With that said yes, there are primaries that are easier to tank with than others. Ice is probably the easiest to manage aggro with it's half second tic rate on it's aura, it snags attention instantly and holds it like glue. Durability wise it's probably about average or below on SO enhancements and a bit above average when soft capped. Shield is arguably the highest damage primary with it's damage boosting aura and Shield Charge; it's also highly durable on minimal enhancement. Invuln is my favorite all around primary; on SO enhancements it's competent; built to the soft cap it's second only to Stone in durability with no drawbacks. WP has impressive durability but is the hardest primary to manage aggro with due to it's nearly nonexistent aggro aura (1.5 second duration vs a MINIMUM of 14 seconds for all other tankers).

Your easiest choices to tank and hold aggro with are Invuln and Shield in my opinion, both offer very good durability with very good aggro management.

I do have an old Fire/Fire tanker in the mid-30's but I haven't played him to any extent in years. I do remember finding him fairly squishy, but I hadn't put anything into an IO build. I know Severe has a Fire/Fire that works well but I also have some idea of just how much inf he's sunk into it to get to that point.

On the secondary front your first question is "Does this primary need any additional mitigation?". If so then Stone Melee, Mace, Ice Melee and Dark Melee would be good choices since all of them offer mitigation in knockdown, stun and healing. If not then your next question would be single target or AOE damage. For ST good choices would be Dark, Stone, Mace and Super Strength. For AOE the top choices are Fire Melee and Electric Melee.

In any case what teams are really looking for in a tanker is the player, not the powerset. Learn how to really tank and it won't matter a lot what sets you try.

Since your name is Elektro and no one's made an Elec tank pitch yet, I'll give it a go.

1. Elec has the highest S/L Resists besides Stone and Invuln.

2. Elec has the highest Energy Resistance, 3rd most common damage type in the game.

3. Elec has complete -end immunity.

4. Elec has an amazing self heal in Energize, which includes a big regen boost and a big endurance discount for 30 seconds. This power can be made near perma.

5. Elec has incredible end management tools, which give you a lot of room in your build.

6. Elec has a recharge bonus and a damage aura, making you a very efficient tanker offensively.

7. Elec's weakness is the lack of defense. With an IO investment(not a big one even, I'll post my build) and smart power selection you can cover for that weakness.

Here's my Elec/Fire(Spiritual) build that needs just one purple to softcap all positionals while maintaining high levels of offense, and does it relatively cheaply:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Janus Firestorm: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee

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Wow... great responses. Lots to think about.

My name, _Elektro_ (in game global as well) is indeed because I love electric effects on characters, and I came into this game in 2004 thinking I was going to kick **** with my Electro type (Spider man villain) character. You can imagine my disappointment!!

But this build (thanks for that BTW) looks really decent. How much do you think the slotting is worth in it? lol

I am thinking of playing pure SO's until I have the inf to round it out. That's partially why I asked about the budget IO build.

Electric is a primary I didn't consider til now (much like DA). CMA makes some very good points too. The kind of info on secondaries I was wanting.

I did do a brute to 50 with fire melee so I'm not sure about doing it again... in a tank. But Elec/Elec could work?

Anyway, you guys have great pitches for your faves and I appreciate all the info and slotting advice as well. TOUGH choices now.

Elec/Elec is a good combo, though Elec Melee isn't really my cup of tea(relies too much on Lightning Rod).

I can't really get a pricetag on my build, but it's definitely cheaper than other defense centric builds.

Inv/Stone is my current favourite tank to team with. A very solid primary paired with two AoE knockdowns in the secondary can keep a tanker, and his team, alive a good, long time. Endurance is a bit of an issue, but the attacks hit hard and animate fast. So far (at 42 right now) it's been a very nice combo for tanking, and lays down some solid damage when I need to.

I've gotta throw in my vote for Shield Defense. You said you were looking for the -best- team Tanker, and with just the numbers of Shield Defense, you have a forerunner. First off, it has two power selections that thrive in team-based scenarios. Those powers are Phalanx Fighting and Grant Cover. I'd recommend both powers, even if you're building a solo-SD tank. Phalanx for base 5% positional defenses, which increase by 3% for every teammate within range, and Grant Cover because it provides defense to the team(not you, though), plus Defense Debuff resistance. It also has a PBAoE offensive in Shield Charge that does a hefty amount of damage; and Against all Odds provides bonuses to damage for every enemy in melee range(up to ten.) You'll cause your allies to flock to you(tankers, scrappers), while you boost their defense, and reap the rewards of the ten mobs you tank, combined with the additional defense from Phalanx.

The problem with Shield Defense, though, is that every power(other than True Grit and Phalanx Fighting) is either a toggle or click power. That makes for endurance issues, if you're attempting to function in the capacity of a Scranker. Also, there are Defense sets for Tankers that offer protection or ways to circumvent endurance draining hooligans(Northern Lights, Malta Sappers, Super Stunners): but Shield Defense offers -no- such protection. Hope this helps.

Having played Ice, Shield, Stone, Inv, and WP to 50 (and Dark to 30), I'll cast a vote for Stone. You get DEF/RES to all but Psi, DDR, and a self heal. If you drop out of granite, you can get DEF to all but fire and ice. You are also not dependant on having mobs around for healing or buffs.

Movement restrictions can be overcome by teleport (if desired, I skipped it) IOs for run speed, and being aware of your surrondings and using taunt to bring the bad guys to you.

I was hoping to sway?!?

Here's a minor data point, I just got off of a (barely) failed MoSTF with my Shield/Fire tanker. I was tough enough for everything the TF threw at me with a minor assist from the team. We failed the Mo on Ghost Widow when the scrapper got caught in the cone of her godawful hold; other than that we had no problems.

I tanked LR tower buffed with One with the Shield and inspirations without major issues... although that end drain channelgun is a PITA, make sure to carry a few big blues for when it connects.

We had a good team and good players, we just had the RNG take a dislike to us there at the end. If Shield is good enough to handle that challenge then it's plenty good enough to handle anything. Is it as tough as Invuln? No, but it isn't all THAT far behind.

I play mostly only tanks: Inv, WP, Ice, Stone and Fire are all lvl 50s. Dark armour scrapper at lvl 50 (can't speak about DA tanks though) and a lvl 34 Electric Tanker.


Outside of Stone, with a fairly genery IO build (nothing fancy), I would say either WP or Inv.
WP is probably better, but it does require extra stuff like +hp accolades.

People can talk about personal preferences, which is fine I guess. But there it is true that there are some stuff that some tankers find it harder to do than others.
There are "holes" in each tanker powerset and some are wider and more common than others.


Invulnerability is a good all-rounder, with a nice God-mode.
Willpower is slightly better because it doesn't care about which type damage is being dealt but rather how much. The weaker taunt-aura is a non-issue since as a tanker, you should be using your AoE attacks whenever they are up and taunt should be fired often thus making the weaker taunt aura a non-issue.


Ice and Fire are quite good but with a generic IO build, there are lots of stuff that they will find harder to tank. I am not saying they can't do it, but it would require a more skilled player or more IO investment.
Which, if you used the same amount of IO investment and the same "higher skilled player" on a WP or an Inv, you'd get a better outcome.


Recently, the +4 baddies on the new TFs made life tougher on "pure" defense Tanker powersets. Not saying I agree with that TF design, I am just stating a fact.

Personal opinions ahoy

Short answer: Ice/Stone Tanker, plenty of tools for self softcapping, self endurance management, control, damage and aggro management.

Long answer: In a team that needs a Tank, I want one who will hold the aggro no matter what's thrown at it. Considering one of my favorite team additions is an AoE Blaster (usually Fire, Beety like big boom) they need to be REALLY good at it. Ice Armour has two taunt auras, one does damage and the other's -recharge (damage mitigation) and -speed (stops them from running away). Similarly, because of the taunt cap being a fickle thing, it's nice if they have some way to help the team with the spillage so Stone's high ST damage and the amazing power of Fault fit the bill (either you make one or two runners go splat or you just stun them from afar, remember, Fault is a -ranged- AoE stun and knockdown).

For survivability, Ice mostly runs off it's defense and the Dull Pain substitute. It has a PBAoE drain power which gives you endurance and a pittance of defense (also a taunt componant!) every 30 seconds with 3 SOs worth of recharge in it.. Best bit? 45 second duration for the defense so it'll stack for a bit too. It can be softcapped with just one IO (the ever useful 3% proc) and a smothering of the drain power Energy Absorption. Stone Melee's additional mitigation will compliment Ice as, IMO, Defense sets almost require a way of having a moment of breathing room for making insp or getting a good view of the battle.

Want some more synergy? Ice will keep any enemies around you aggroed or runspeed debuffed enough that they will be soon enough as you cave in the skulls of your current targets and any enemies which run/are aggroed accidently you can retaunt/stop with Fault, which is a perma AoE stun if slotted for 2 acc 2 stun 2 recharge. AVs/GMs may be the only problem, but pop one purple and you're softcapped for good anyhow. Ice will counteract Stone's high endurance, Stone with counteract Ice's.. Uhm.. Nothing, really, it just adds to the already good mitigation.

If you go into an IO investment, there're plenty of places to put LotGs for a high recharge builds (Fault, Hoarfrost and Energy Absorption up more often), enough attacks/controls for a high defense build and even the cheaper option of a simple +hp build works well with a defense-based Tanktroller.. You can almost think of it as a defense based Dark Armour