Peacebringers in play?
Hm. I like the idea of a -to hit debuff too, and I do see the issues with -resistance in a team setting.
It would increase the Peacebringer's survivability, solo, as well. Considering that Peacebringers have resistance based defenses and have only minimal Defense possibilities, -to hit may be a better option.
I find it unlikely PBs will get a damage buff, seeing that Khelds as a whole received a significant boost in damage and range a few issues ago. Though some think PBs need a bit more to bring them in line with Warshades.
Not counting pets, Peacebringers and Warshades have comparable damage capacity. Photon Seekers give Peacebringers around 5-600 points of damage every 150-300 seconds and can't be made perma. Extracted Essences not only are nearly perma out of the box, but can be doubled. They give the warshade 5-600 points of extra damage every six seconds or so.
To me, one of the chief problems with peacebringers lies with photon seekers.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
-to hit is interesting but again... most of what people are complaining about is a lack of raw damage from the PB in comparison to the WS. How does -to hit address that?
It doesn't, so why use it as a fix?
Take a look at the -Def in each attack now. It's actually quite minimal and has already been pointed out that the durations are very short. If you model the -Resistance in the same way you wont see anything that will disrupt game balance.
My point being is that the suggestion was made to address specifically the problems brought up by the vocal community that has posted on this forum. I'm not saying implement this and everything will be all rosey but If your going to keep toting one issue as the heart of the problems for PB's I think the proposed solution should be some thing that directly affects that issue.
Death can be Beautiful. A Night Widow Guide on a budget
I disliked my PB until I went Human form only, took all the shields and Tough and Hasten. Much fun and tail kicking. When things get really flaky and people are dying around you is when you can really strut your stuff.
Just don't be a jackass and Solar Flare all over the place while on teams.
I have actually had a person tell me "You're doing it wrong, Tri-form is the ONLY way to play Khelds."
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
I disliked my PB until I went Human form only, took all the shields and Tough and Hasten. Much fun and tail kicking. When things get really flaky and people are dying around you is when you can really strut your stuff.
Just don't be a jackass and Solar Flare all over the place while on teams. I have actually had a person tell me "You're doing it wrong, Tri-form is the ONLY way to play Khelds." |
Personally, I play triform, and enjoy having the various tools in my toolbox. He's my favorite character actually, I play him almost to the detriment of all my other characters. Despite that, I really wish there was something that could be done to make him...well, not on par with, but just to a point where my friends with their IO'd out characters didn't constantly question why id try and IO out a kheld when I could take all that influence, whip up a scrapper/brute/tanker and do that much better.
I like my PB, I made him in Issue 3, and other than a break to play up a mastermind (My other favorite AT) he's been my main ever since. I just wish he was closer to my friends characters so I wouldn't constantly feel like I'm the pity spot...
Despite that, I really wish there was something that could be done to make him...well, not on par with, but just to a point where my friends with their IO'd out characters didn't constantly question why id try and IO out a kheld when I could take all that influence, whip up a scrapper/brute/tanker and do that much better.
I like my PB, I made him in Issue 3, and other than a break to play up a mastermind (My other favorite AT) he's been my main ever since. I just wish he was closer to my friends characters so I wouldn't constantly feel like I'm the pity spot... |
Peacebringers are not unplayable or a wasted slot on a team by any means, but they've been punished too hard for their versatility. As things progress into the end game, that versatility ceases to be unique.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
These are clever ways of saying you would like your PB to be on par with the other ATs, and that's OK to say.
Peacebringers are not unplayable or a wasted slot on a team by any means, but they've been punished too hard for their versatility. As things progress into the end game, that versatility ceases to be unique. |
I think our biggest problem is that we DON'T get angry about this. I'm not talking "torches, pitchforks, and signs with witty slogans", but we've been entirely too accommodating about the last 7 years of the game. We've regularly been ignored by the big systems like power customization, we only really get looked at when a change to something else is buggy in relation to us, we get crumbs on occasion (dwarfing out of holds is fun), but its just that...crumbs...and we've just gotten used to that being how things work for us.
The next problem is how do we go about fixing that first one? I think we need a dialogue to start up between us and Synapse/Black Scorpion (I think they're the two running the ship now that Castles gone...I could be wrong, they're quiet) about PBs, and khelds in general. Could also update our issues sticky seeing as it appears to be 2 years old.
I suppose what this all boils down to is we should probably start doing more than just debating different ideas on how to fix us, and work towards actually getting the attention we need to get the ball rolling in the first place.
These are clever ways of saying you would like your PB to be on par with the other ATs, and that's OK to say.
Peacebringers are not unplayable or a wasted slot on a team by any means, but they've been punished too hard for their versatility. As things progress into the end game, that versatility ceases to be unique. |
The long and short of it is, being a jack-of-all trades character just isn't as needed anymore. Warshades have made it through the change just fine (as they can perform as more than a "filling the gaps" AT)... Peacebringers however, are really lagging behind. I say that as my 50 PB is the character I play the most and is on his way to being completely purpled out. He can do some impressive things... but it takes some work, practice and inf to get it "just so."
Imho, though not an end-all be-all fix, I'd just love to see Solar Flare turned into KD and have a stun component added to Proton Scatter. Warshades have a stun in this power, why don't Peacebringers?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'm sorta wondering what happened with Warshades. I had one years ago and tried for years to level it to 50. Busting it out when I knew I could get a team (basically Double XP weekends) and then shelving it because it was so incredibly painful to solo on. I couldn't solo my own mission on heroic without dying against a minion. I respecced around 4+ times, followed build advice, etc, and eventually I just gave up. On the contrary I had a PB that was far more fun to play.
So it's odd to me that I now hear PB's are so inferior to WS' when, back when I tried WS', they felt like probably the worst class I ever played in a game.
I'm sorta wondering what happened with Warshades. I had one years ago and tried for years to level it to 50. Busting it out when I knew I could get a team (basically Double XP weekends) and then shelving it because it was so incredibly painful to solo on. I couldn't solo my own mission on heroic without dying against a minion. I respecced around 4+ times, followed build advice, etc, and eventually I just gave up. On the contrary I had a PB that was far more fun to play.
So it's odd to me that I now hear PB's are so inferior to WS' when, back when I tried WS', they felt like probably the worst class I ever played in a game. |
But if you got your Warshade to 32 and beyond, you had your damage output tripled over what a Peacebringer could do.
So what happened to Warshades, specifically, to make them such awesome solo death machines? Enhanced difficulty settings. On heroic, you were stuck with one lieutenant and two minions per spawn against which to buff. Now, however, you can crank up the number of enemies you face, and how powerful they are.
Because of this, Warshades are rolling through solo missions at the resistance cap along side two and three pets that add 100-150 dps (if you can get three fluffies out consistently) to damage that is boosted by fully saturated mires. Dwarf Mire - with it's shortened recharge/duration and respectable damage - turns black dwarf into a heavy scrapper that can tank for the essences.
Peacebringers still solo as well as they ever did. Better, in fact. But the ability to increase spawn size was a game-changer for Solo Warshades.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Because the Peacebringer version does about ten times the damage.
|
Secondary Effects : Foe Disorient (Mag 3), Knockback, -Recharge(20%), -Spd(20%)
Proton Scatter : 44 Energy Dmg
Secondary Effects : -Defense(9%)
So... roughly twice the damage (still not a lot) makes for the tradeoff of having next to no secondary effects? Heck, Gravitic Emanation is a Mag 3 stun, which Shades can then stack with Inky Aspect. PBs only have Pulsar (Mag 2), with no powers to stack it with.
Would adding even a Mag 2 stun to Scatter be so bad?
How high did you level your warshade? Because Peacebringers pre-26 are actually a bit superior to their darker brethren, IMHO. Their damage is comparable, and Peacebringers at the time when there was still a "heroic" were far superior soloists. Voids and quantums were rougher then, and you did ALOT less damage.
But if you got your Warshade to 32 and beyond, you had your damage output tripled over what a Peacebringer could do. So what happened to Warshades, specifically, to make them such awesome solo death machines? Enhanced difficulty settings. On heroic, you were stuck with one lieutenant and two minions per spawn against which to buff. Now, however, you can crank up the number of enemies you face, and how powerful they are. Because of this, Warshades are rolling through solo missions at the resistance cap along side two and three pets that add 100-150 dps (if you can get three fluffies out consistently) to damage that is boosted by fully saturated mires. Dwarf Mire - with it's shortened recharge/duration and respectable damage - turns black dwarf into a heavy scrapper that can tank for the essences. Peacebringers still solo as well as they ever did. Better, in fact. But the ability to increase spawn size was a game-changer for Solo Warshades. |
About 43 or so before I just gave up. I think I gave up when Cimerora was released. I simply could not solo anything. To this day it remains my worst soloer ever.
|
I promise it'll make a difference.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Gravitic Emanation : 17.8 Negative Dmg
Secondary Effects : Foe Disorient (Mag 3), Knockback, -Recharge(20%), -Spd(20%) Proton Scatter : 44 Energy Dmg Secondary Effects : -Defense(9%) So... roughly twice the damage (still not a lot) makes for the tradeoff of having next to no secondary effects? Heck, Gravitic Emanation is a Mag 3 stun, which Shades can then stack with Inky Aspect. PBs only have Pulsar (Mag 2), with no powers to stack it with. Would adding even a Mag 2 stun to Scatter be so bad? |
And yes, having over twice the base damage makes up for having no status effect. I'd imagine doing 26.7 damage (17.8 x 1.5) would be what the power would be reduced to to add the Mag 2 stun. Would you be willing to take away that damage from a PB to give it a stun in its Proton Scatter?
I think I would.
But really, congratulations. You've highlighted yet another reason why PBs are inferior to their cousins, the WS. Warshades have two powers with guaranteed AoE stuns (granted, one is a toggle), and a third AoE power that has a 50% chance to stun and does a ton of damage (granted, that one requires a corpse). The PB has no such capability.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I run across these posts in all of the AT sections, this Tank outshines that Tank or Dominator A is the only way to go versus Dominator B. I know there are a lot of min maxers that play but I always thought the strength of CoX was the variety of toons that could be explored. I have two IOd PBs I use specifically for PvP and TF runs and I also have two IOd WSs I use for different content as well. I like all of them and it just depends on what I feel like playing because they're all fun in their own way.
Its too bad these discussion get to the point where people are calling each other names like its a PvP zone just because there are different viewpoints. This is all pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things but I can easily see how politicians end up screaming at each other all day instead of doing something productive because one camp thinks X policy is inferior/superior to Y policy.
Regardless of which Kheldian you think is "the best", a lot of good information here if you can focus past the walls of text that are arguements.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I run across these posts in all of the AT sections, this Tank outshines that Tank or Dominator A is the only way to go versus Dominator B. I know there are a lot of min maxers that play but I always thought the strength of CoX was the variety of toons that could be explored. I have two IOd PBs I use specifically for PvP and TF runs and I also have two IOd WSs I use for different content as well. I like all of them and it just depends on what I feel like playing because they're all fun in their own way.
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I know a PB can be built to do pretty well. But no matter what kind of build you come up with, your results would have been far more effective put into any other AT. The comparisons we're making are only with the intention of seeing Peacebringers buffed.
You can say that a PB is a "jack of all trades," but the truth is that every other AT is already a "master of all trades."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
What I'm afraid you're missing is that most of us are not saying that PBs are not playable, or that "X is better so you shouldn't play a PB."
I know a PB can be built to do pretty well. But no matter what kind of build you come up with, your results would have been far more effective put into any other AT. The comparisons we're making are only with the intention of seeing Peacebringers buffed. You can say that a PB is a "jack of all trades," but the truth is that every other AT is already a "master of all trades." |
Some people prefer to play WSs and others prefer PBs...going on for 5 pages about #s, IOs, content and tactics isn't going to change that feeling for most. I'm in the camp that enjoys both, the same way I like my Elec/Shield and my Dark/WP Scrappers. I'm going to leave it at that before you or someone else here decides to call me "kiddo", "baddo" or some other Arena Channel insult.
Like I said earlier, good information from the Kheld community. Lively debates make the world go round, just hate to see people devolve into name calling over "this toon is better than that toon" posts.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Are you sure that you weren't directing this at someone you were arguing with on page 2 or 3? I don't think I've missed any points of the discussion since I read most of the comments here. I also didn't say anything about most saying PBs are unplayable...at least not in this thread. Anytime I post here, its not a personal attack or supporting one camp of Khelds versus the other, but more on the side of play what you enjoy playing.
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It just seemed to me like you were dismissing the balance argument as one of preference. I wanted to make sure my purpose was clear, since my message seems to have been convoluted in these arguments (through nobody's fault but my own). We all play what we enjoy, but I feel more people would enjoy and play peacebringers (and stalkers, but that's another thread) if they were brought up to par. Whether you enjoy playing a Peacebringer, it is clear that they are behind the balance curve and that's something that needs fixed. Their versatility is no longer unique; they do far too little damage with not enough survivability to compensate.
The first step towards change is awareness.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I apologize for misinterpreting.
It just seemed to me like you were dismissing the balance argument as one of preference. I wanted to make sure my purpose was clear, since my message seems to have been convoluted in these arguments (through nobody's fault but my own). We all play what we enjoy, but I feel more people would enjoy and play peacebringers (and stalkers, but that's another thread) if they were brought up to par. Whether you enjoy playing a Peacebringer, it is clear that they are behind the balance curve and that's something that needs fixed. Their versatility is no longer unique; they do far too little damage with not enough survivability to compensate. The first step towards change is awareness. |
I think everyone can agree if the Devs did away with all the "underperforming" ATs/powersets and we just had a handful of "superior" ATs, the game would get old quick. Variety is where its at...play what you like, b/c you are not going to change other's preferences. I mean, I'm working on a petless MM...DS/Dark. Can't get much gimpier than that, but I like the whip animations and feel like you can make anything play well in PvE with a certain build and proper IOs. Performance aside, I'm doing it because I like it and not basing my decision on "but a MM with pets or a Corruptor could kill a mob 16.4 seconds faster".
I get a lot of compliments when I play my Human PB on TFs since Cosmic Balance really kicks in I suppose...no problem with damage output or resistance. But yeah, thats with CB, IOs for +recharge for 2100 hps with perma Dull Pain clone and damage and hold procs for solid play. I get compliments when I run my WS as well, it rocks socks and at the end of the day, I just enjoy playing them all.
Take it easy guys.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
We're not asking for Peacebringers to be made into a "superior" powerset. We're just asking for Peacebringers to be more effective. Right now, Peacebringers blast like a Defender, heal like a Tanker, tank like a Scrapper and scrap like a Blaster.
It's nice that you enjoy playing your Peacebringer. I know I do. However, I'm NOT blind to the AT's shortcomings, the fact that Peacebringers are frustrating to play solo, and don't actually bring all that much to teams apart from "Versatility", a versatility which frankly is not needed.
I especially get frustrated when someone comes into a thread, says "Hey, it's all good, Peacebringers are just fine as they are" when no, no they're not just fine as they are. That attitude is why no developer had seriously looked at Peacebringers for five, six years.
I would be happy if Peacebringers could make it to the *middle* of the pack in effectiveness. Right now, they're near the bottom.
We're not asking for Peacebringers to be made into a "superior" powerset. We're just asking for Peacebringers to be more effective. Right now, Peacebringers blast like a Defender, heal like a Tanker, tank like a Scrapper and scrap like a Blaster.
It's nice that you enjoy playing your Peacebringer. I know I do. However, I'm NOT blind to the AT's shortcomings, the fact that Peacebringers are frustrating to play solo, and don't actually bring all that much to teams apart from "Versatility", a versatility which frankly is not needed. I especially get frustrated when someone comes into a thread, says "Hey, it's all good, Peacebringers are just fine as they are" when no, no they're not just fine as they are. That attitude is why no developer had seriously looked at Peacebringers for five, six years. I would be happy if Peacebringers could make it to the *middle* of the pack in effectiveness. Right now, they're near the bottom. |
**hugs Starcloud**
Built up frustration causes health issues.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
We're not asking for Peacebringers to be made into a "superior" powerset. We're just asking for Peacebringers to be more effective. Right now, Peacebringers blast like a Defender, heal like a Tanker, tank like a Scrapper and scrap like a Blaster.
It's nice that you enjoy playing your Peacebringer. I know I do. However, I'm NOT blind to the AT's shortcomings, the fact that Peacebringers are frustrating to play solo, and don't actually bring all that much to teams apart from "Versatility", a versatility which frankly is not needed. I especially get frustrated when someone comes into a thread, says "Hey, it's all good, Peacebringers are just fine as they are" when no, no they're not just fine as they are. That attitude is why no developer had seriously looked at Peacebringers for five, six years. I would be happy if Peacebringers could make it to the *middle* of the pack in effectiveness. Right now, they're near the bottom. |
All I've seen in this thread, and every thread where Peacebringer performance has been brought up, has been anecdotes. If Peacebringer performance is lacking so bad, it should be measurable, and demonstrable. Where are the numbers to back up the claims? I think I know where they are...they're hiding, because any numbers showing Peacebringer performance will ALSO show Warshade performance, and NO ONE wants to nerf Warshades. Historically, that has been an option the devs have employed to affect balance as well. ((Specifically, I mean numbers like the scrapper secondary analysis, that showed how and why SR was lagging. There have been numbers posted in this thread and others, but nothing that's encompassed "performance", just some powers comparisons.))
Do Peacebringers meet the dev "standard performance level" (whatever that might happen to be)? Probably. In the hands of a competent player? Definately. In the hands of a highly skilled min/maxer, with all available resources? Beyond a resonable doubt, yes. Are they on par with X, Y, or Z? I have no idea, I'm not even sure if that's a fair comparison. There have always been powersets that players have felt underperform. There probably always will be. I have no problem with the overall performance of my Peacebringers. i13 made things a lot better, and I was fine with them before that even. IF they were buffed again, I'd be ok with that too! There are certainly some aspects that I would like the devs to change (shapeshift animation times, photon seekers, KB). Would I (or any of you) cry if Warshades got a suplementary nerf at the same time as Peacebringers got a buff, to bring the two closer to some arbitrary "standard"?
I know I know, I didn't post anything but hyperbole...what did you expect? This is a Peacebringer performance thread
If we're going to "add an effect" to PB attack powers, because Defense Debuff "isn't enough" due to how the game (and Players) have evolved ... I'm thinking that ToHit Debuff would be a better choice than Resistance Debuff. Reason and Rationale? LIGHT ... as in Flash Arrow ("where's my white cane?") blinding.
Easy back-of-the-envelope formula for implementing such a thing would be to take the current Defense Debuff value and duration for each attack ... cut the value in half and duplicate the duration ... and set THAT as the ToHit Debuff value/duration for all attacks which have Defense Debuff. Also allow all Defense Debuffing PB Powers to also use the ToHit Debuff enhancements as well as Accurate ToHit Debuff and ToHit Debuff Invention Sets. DONE.
Gleaming Bolt, Bright Nova Bolt
-9% Defense for 3s
Add: ToHit -4.5% for 3s
Gllinting Eye, Gleaming Blast, Bright Nova Blast
-18% Defense for 6s
Add: ToHit -9% for 6s
Radiant Strike, White Dwarf Strike
-9% Defense for 6s
Add: ToHit -4.5% for 6s
Proton Scatter, Bright Nova Scatter
-9% Defense for 8s
Add: ToHit -4.5% for 8s
Luminous Detonation, Incandescent Strike, Bright Nova Detonation, White Dwarf Smite
-9% Defense for 10s
Add: ToHit -4.5% for 10s
Solar Flare, White Dwarf Flare
-18% Defense for 10s
Add: ToHit -9% for 10s
Dawn Strike
-18% Defense for 20s
Add: ToHit -9% for 20s
By adding ToHit Debuff to all PB attack powers which do Defense Debuff, you're effectively giving your entire group "Offensive Defense" and decreasing the amount of Damage Over Time that your Team must absorb/heal/regenerate by making hostiles hit by PB attacks MISS more often. The PB would effectively be "protecting" their team, by attacking so as to Debuff the opposition into being less accurate with their attacks.
So rather than bumping up the Team's damage output/throughput via a Resistance Debuff ... which opens all kinds of game balance worm cans ... instead the Peacebringer's active participation favorably influences Team Survivability and Healer Workload through ToHit Debuffing.