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Well, my main point there is that we *are* running into them a fair amount. Not as much as, say, Maria's arc, no (and I really am not fond of what they did with that,) but they're not all that rare. Might be a playstyle viewpoint, though. Someone who's just soloing isn't going to see them as much, no. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Task forces are hardly solo affairs, though. I was under the impression that we were talking about a solo kheld, for some reason. If you've got a team behind you, then you're not going to have to worry too much about buffing yourself anyway.
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...in the context of Dech's remarks about def debuff being irrelevant in a game where everyone (like your teammates, I assumed) runs with acc slotted to the 95% cap. I might have to go back and re-read those parts, then. |
Edit: Re - value of -def
I'd suggest reading the controller boards, especially in discussions of Ice vs Earth. Why is Earth held up as better than ice? The -def. So... the "-def is worthless" is certainly not a universal opinion.
Dechs seems to be running on an assumption that we're running 3acc/3dmg (or some IO combination of that.) I don't think I have *any* characters that run slotted anything like that (well, 2a/3d/* on SO/commons.) Unless I'm completely and totally misunderstanding him there, but that's how I read it. (Which, on a slot-hungry AT like Khelds, well... no.)
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Dechs is running under the assumption that it only takes one ACC common IO or +3 SO to cap your chance to hit even con enemies at 95%. Any accuracy bonuses or frankenslotting usually results in wasted enhancement against even levels, but will allow for the same chance to hit against +1s and +2s.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Dechs seems to be running on an assumption that we're running 3acc/3dmg (or some IO combination of that.)
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Peacebringers are not better than Warshades.
Warshades are not better than Peacebringers.
I have both Khelds at 50 and they excel at different situations. I don't understand why people (especially the vets) sit around comparing them in so many posts when its obvious from their design that their purposes are different. They have similar forms, copied animations, and the same inherent only inverted. This just makes them equally versatile, not equally suited to deal with the same tasks.
Peacebringers are completely self-buffed and better at dealing with single targets like EB's/AV's and pvp. Warshades are aoe based with heals, mezzes, and buffs and their weakness is their dependancy on multiple mobs to sustain themselves. Its really this simple but I'll keep going:
When you want AOE's the PB is going to be subpar and outshined by a fully-mired, slowing, perma-mezzing, perma-eclipsed WS nuking bodies and surrounded by pets. The moment that same WS gets to an AV, the pets eventually die out, the perma eclipse is less useful, the awesome aoe heal disappears and mires are less relevant on a single mob. This dependancy on multiple foes in melee and/or dead bodies for survival makes WS's terrible for pvp.
When its time to hit a single target and survive the PB outperforms the WS. The PB can heal other team members and keep themselves alive while debuffing a target with -def and -res (if they use achilles heel and fury of the gladiator procs). They have 2 heals and a unstoppable clone to do this as well as the heal from Dwarf if they choose the form. WS's can get 2 Siphon Life clones that can miss and force them into melee range of the target that is giving them a reason to heal in the first place. The WS heals are not on par with 3 larger and risk-free heals the PB can get. In terms of survivability, PB's place just under regens and maybe 1 or 2 other sets in PvE and PvP. Do Warshades come anywhere close without Stygian circle? No. Not even close and they are far down on the totem pole of survivable powersets when that heal is unavailable.
Also, people that believe rad/nrg blasters are as survivable than PB's obviously have no idea what they are talking about or they are brain donors. Blasters do more damage than PB's but PB have more tools to survive. What can a PB do that a Rad/nrg can't? Survive in a situation that would kill a blaster, duh. Are you people seriously debating this?
-Essence Boost > Hoarfrost because Kheldian HP Cap is 2409 not 1606 so you end up with a larger heal and more HP.
-Light Form > Force of Nature because Kheldian Max resist cap is 85 which is more than blasters at 75. Light Form provides Mez Protection and lasts a minute longer than Force of Nature. The HP crash sucks but you get 2 heals, Dwarf Form, a phase shift and a blinking warning so you can prepare to deal with this crash and recover.
-Hoarfrost and Force of Nature are from different epics so you get one or the other as a blaster while Kheldians have access to better versions of both powers.
-Reform Essence > Aid Self because a self heal beats a interruptible heal that requires 2 power picks to get and locks out another pool power choice. Aid Self recharges faster than reform essence but your not going to pull off aid self off while continuing to fight like a PB will. Hitting PFF to use aid self is way more time consuming than a self heal. A PB could hit a phase with no activation time and do the same thing faster. Reform Essence provides toxic resist Aid Self gives stun resist. A PB can hit dwarf form or light form for mez protection or use breakfrees so this effect isn't a big deal the dmg resist is more useful. Even if you wanted to argue that Aid Self is better... remember... PB's can have both.
-PB Shields > Temp Inv or Ice Armor because PB's have this one thing called Incandescence that provides auto nrg/neg nrg resist. This gives them an edge even though the base for temp inv is 2% higher. You're not going to notice the difference in incoming damage with a 2% difference and consider the inherent adding at least 10% to this depending on the team. Ice Armor isn't saving you from anything, thats why they offer hibernate and a heal in the same epic. Sure 10% s/l defense is better than zero but unless you are stacking other bonuses to softcap its not enough to matter. The Cold resist is cool but think about all the mobs in the game that are doing serious ice damage after lvl 41? Minor dmg from CoT/Crey minions and LT's? If you plan on spending most of your time beating on CoT and Crey to get to 50 while depending on ice resist then Ice Armor is full of win. PB's can get shields for everything but psi plus the inherent buffs from team members. Blasters... not so much.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
On paper, and when the damage output isn't there, Peacebringers survive longer than blasters, this is true.
However, another major form of damage mitigation is killing mobs quickly. Blasters are considerably better at this than Peacebringers. So are Scrappers. So are Widows, Banes, Crabs, Dominators, Corruptors, some Controllers, some Defenders...
And Tankers are more survivable while still putting out similar damage.
As a whole package, my Blasters feel like and are contributing more than my Peacebringer ever will. Peacebringers are NOT tanks. They have insufficient resistances to fill the role. Peacebringers are NOT scrappers; insufficient melee damage. They're not blasters: insufficient ranged damage.
And that's my problem with Peacebringers. They're defined by what they're NOT, not what they ARE.
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Can your blaster tank a mob, Nuke that same mob, turn around and heal another team member then return to tanking or blasting? No, it can't but a PB can do all those things at the same time. Exploring the versatility is what makes Khelds special. They will never be better than all the AT's you mentioned. They would be overpowered and people playing those AT's would probably be unhappy. When Khelds were created I remembered the Dev's fear of tank mages as the reason for making sure they were weaker than the classes they mimicked.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
On paper, and when the damage output isn't there, Peacebringers survive longer than blasters, this is true.
However, another major form of damage mitigation is killing mobs quickly. Blasters are considerably better at this than Peacebringers. So are Scrappers. So are Widows, Banes, Crabs, Dominators, Corruptors, some Controllers, some Defenders... And Tankers are more survivable while still putting out similar damage. As a whole package, my Blasters feel like and are contributing more than my Peacebringer ever will. Peacebringers are NOT tanks. They have insufficient resistances to fill the role. Peacebringers are NOT scrappers; insufficient melee damage. They're not blasters: insufficient ranged damage. And that's my problem with Peacebringers. They're defined by what they're NOT, not what they ARE. |
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
Quote:
That would be a valid argument if a warshade needed to fight more than one mob to be more effective than a peacebringer. |
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Peacebringers are completely self-buffed and better at dealing with single targets like EB's/AV's and pvp. Warshades are aoe based with heals, mezzes, and buffs and their weakness is their dependancy on multiple mobs to sustain themselves. Its really this simple but I'll keep going:
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But never mind that. How often in this game are you going to be facing just one mob? Even a solo Warshade on the minimum difficulty will have three mobs per spawn on average, giving it more than enough of a boost to "sustain itself."
By the time it's down to a mano y mano with that last mob, that last mob has taken quite a bit of splash damage from the fight with the first two.
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| When you want AOE's the PB is going to be subpar and outshined by a fully-mired, slowing, perma-mezzing, perma-eclipsed WS nuking bodies and surrounded by pets. The moment that same WS gets to an AV, the pets eventually die out, the perma eclipse is less useful, the awesome aoe heal disappears and mires are less relevant on a single mob. This dependancy on multiple foes in melee and/or dead bodies for survival makes WS's terrible for pvp. |
And when a warshade is fully mired, slowing, perma-mezzing and perma-eclipsed and nuking bodies and surrounded by pets the av is taking considerably more damage than that peacebringer can bring to bear.
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| When its time to hit a single target and survive the PB outperforms the WS. |
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| The PB can heal other team members and keep themselves alive while debuffing a target with -def and -res (if they use achilles heel and fury of the gladiator procs). |
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| They have 2 heals and a unstoppable clone to do this as well as the heal from Dwarf if they choose the form. WS's can get 2 Siphon Life clones that can miss and force them into melee range of the target that is giving them a reason to heal in the first place. The WS heals are not on par with 3 larger and risk-free heals the PB can get. In terms of survivability, PB's place just under regens and maybe 1 or 2 other sets in PvE and PvP. Do Warshades come anywhere close without Stygian circle? No. Not even close and they are far down on the totem pole of survivable powersets when that heal is unavailable. |
It also doesn't make sense to discount stygian circle - it can nearly refill a warshade's health bar from one hit point with only one body hit (and don't bother arguing about the need for bodies - you can't swing a tentacle in any given mission without hitting at least one body. They're not hard to make.) Reform Essence and Sublimation will give you about half a bar. Essence boost does better, but the heal comes after a delay. I died alot before I learned not to use Essence Boost reactively.
But has it occurred to you that warshades' siphon life clones don't heal as much because warshades don't need the heals as much as the peacebringer? You said it yourself: a warshade can rock the aoe's while fully mired, fully eclipsed, perma mezzing and slowing while the pets fire away too. A warshade is facing considerably less incoming damage than a peacebringer.
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| -PB Shields > Temp Inv or Ice Armor because PB's have this one thing called Incandescence that provides auto nrg/neg nrg resist. This gives them an edge even though the base for temp inv is 2% higher. You're not going to notice the difference in incoming damage with a 2% difference and consider the inherent adding at least 10% to this depending on the team. Ice Armor isn't saving you from anything, thats why they offer hibernate and a heal in the same epic. Sure 10% s/l defense is better than zero but unless you are stacking other bonuses to softcap its not enough to matter. The Cold resist is cool but think about all the mobs in the game that are doing serious ice damage after lvl 41? Minor dmg from CoT/Crey minions and LT's? If you plan on spending most of your time beating on CoT and Crey to get to 50 while depending on ice resist then Ice Armor is full of win. PB's can get shields for everything but psi plus the inherent buffs from team members. Blasters... not so much. |
But never mind that. Comparing defense shields to resistance shields is an apples and oranges argument that will never, ever hold any water here.
When it's all said and done, it's not that Peacebringers don't do anything - it's that the game doesn't reward them for doing it. Peacebringers are a single target archetype in an AoE game, and there's no fixing that.
There's no excuse for Photon Seekers in their current form, however.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
So reading through all this, it comes across as:
"There's no point to playing a Peacebringer. Delete it and save yourself the trouble."
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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First, this is an AoE centric game. You might as well say "the PB is going to be subpar" and stop there.|
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
When you want AOE's the PB is going to be subpar and outshined by a fully-mired, slowing, perma-mezzing, perma-eclipsed WS nuking bodies and surrounded by pets.
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Second, the PB is going to be outshined by the WS, the blaster, the tanker, the scrapper, the brute, the controller, the defender, the corruptor, the dominator, the VEAT, and the WS. The stalker is debatable.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
The moment that same WS gets to an AV, the pets eventually die out, the perma eclipse is less useful, the awesome aoe heal disappears and mires are less relevant on a single mob. This dependancy on multiple foes in melee and/or dead bodies for survival makes WS's terrible for pvp.
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PvP is a fraction of the game, an even smaller fraction of the population, and so far broken that the rest of your argument holds no weight either.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
What can a PB do that a Rad/nrg can't? Survive in a situation that would kill a blaster, duh. Are you people seriously debating this?
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You seem to be missing the point of arguing here. I'm not trying to berate PBs or people who play them. I'm trying to point out what I feel are serious balance issues. PBs need buffs, either in terms of survivability or damage, to fit on the scale as it is.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Can your blaster tank a mob, Nuke that same mob, turn around and heal another team member then return to tanking or blasting?
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By the way, I believe you'd need a blue inspiration between your nuke and the heal. Several if you don't plan on using conserve power (which my blaster gets too). The difference is my nuke will actually kill the mob its in.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Not remotely. There is a difference between peacebringers needing improvement and peacebringers being fun, and if anything we've posted has led you to want to delete your peacebringer then please remember the binary nature of internet forums before typing in the name of that peacebringer for the final time:|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
So reading through all this, it comes across as:
"There's no point to playing a Peacebringer. Delete it and save yourself the trouble." |
If we demonstrate in no uncertain terms where peacebringers are falling behind, then people think we're trashing on the archetype. If - as I've done previous to this - we talk about these same things in the context of "they're falling short, but here's how you can get around it" then the false impression is given that there are minor issues at best.
I might appear to be coming down hard on peacebringers in this thread, but make no mistake about it - I'm a peacebringer player. I play the archetype to the exclusion of most others, including warshades (although I do have a warshade, too). I like the self-contained buffs and the self-reliant nature of the lighter side of squiddiness; I just think the price is too high. Just after posting last night in this thread I jumped over in game and hunted a few incarnate shards on my PB and had a great time doing it. In fact, I'm betting that once more incarnate slots are released you're going to see more than a few PB's come off the shelf.
But that doesn't mean they don't need fixing.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Sure as you post that someone will have a video of a pb soloing an AV. I know I've come close on a moderately IO'd build. I can take down EB's like Midas from the Incarnate arc. No way I could have done it as an AV.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The moment you show me a PB soloing an AV I'll give this argument any weight at all. When it gets down to the AV, my WS's sunless mire still provides more damage than build up, and I can sit in nova and blast just as well as you can, or dwarf and tank as well as you can.
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And as I said, soloing AV's is a VERY small aspect of this game, and to be honest it also ignores that AV's were designed to be team-oriented foes - ESPECIALLY on an A/T that is supposed to be team-oriented.
Also, how is your WS's sunless mire providing more damage than build up? Against a lone AV (or any lone mob) it provides an 11% damage buff. It lasts 30 seconds to Build Up's 15, so total buff against a single mob is 22% verses Build Up's 72%. Even assuming a whole spawn at minimum difficulty, you're looking at roughly 33-55% damage buff for as long as the minions last.
Now if you're talking about stacking dwarf mire with it, then they'd at least be comparable overall....
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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That's kind of my point. When it gets down to the AV in a team setting, my WS is doing just as much good as the PB, even without all my "necessary fuel." If a PB can solo an AV then his argument has half a leg to stand on, but it still is just a minuscule fraction of the game that a PB can do that a WS can't, where the WS is vastly superior everywhere else.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And as I said, soloing AV's is a VERY small aspect of this game, and to be honest it also ignores that AV's were designed to be team-oriented foes - ESPECIALLY on an A/T that is supposed to be team-oriented.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Also, how is your WS's sunless mire providing more damage than build up? Against a lone AV (or any lone mob) it provides an 11% damage buff. It lasts 30 seconds to Build Up's 15, so total buff against a single mob is 22% verses Build Up's 72%. Even assuming a whole spawn at minimum difficulty, you're looking at roughly 33-55% damage buff for as long as the minions last.
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My Sunless Mire lasts 30 seconds and recharges in 30. It does damage of its own, and doesn't waste most of its duration in the form swap to nova to capitalize on it. Sure it's only 11.25% for one target, but it's always there.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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How much recharge does your build have? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My Sunless Mire lasts 30 seconds and recharges in 30. It does damage of its own, and doesn't waste most of its duration in the form swap to nova to capitalize on it. Sure it's only 11.25% for one target, but it's always there.
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I agree with your point regarding Build-Up's duration and form-swapping, and Dwarf's mire needs little more than good slotting to be a persistent buff.
It's still worth mentioning, however, that 11.25% is slightly less than you can get get from a red inspiration.
Nonetheless, the counter-point to that is that a warshade will consistently be facing more than one foe. Just like dark melee's soul drain, you can expect an average damage buff based on three to four mobs. There's a reason Dark Melee has been the perrenial FoTM for high end builds, and Warshades get two mires to perma.
Like I needed to tell you that, right?
EDIT - and to be fair, with very little recharge bonus slotting you can also have Build-up every 30 seconds. Now that's more than triple the time of its duration, but it's also more about burst damage than the mire. And if we're going to take form-switching into account, then you also have to do that for the warshade. To get that damage boost, you're going to have to drop to human to use it, so every 30 seconds you're going to have 3 seconds of downtime where a warshade's all-important dps is going to take a hit. And if you want to keep both mires permanent, you're better off to stay in dwarf, when not miring in human form, otherwise (if you went with nova for damage) you'd have to drop to human and go to dwarf to hit the dwarf mire. I'm not even going to calculate the time wasted in 30 seconds doing that, because no one in their right mind would.
Then there's animation times. Build Up's 1.17 second cast time doesn't affect it's burst damage potential nearly as much as Mire's 2.32 seconds. Add that to the form shifting time and you've got nearly six seconds of time where you're not doing any damage. If you're also going to utilize the dwarf mire you can also add another 2.32 seconds for that. So for almost the entire time of build-up's 10 second duration of +72% extra damage, you're animating one thing or another to get almost comparable average damage and taking that time as a hit to your dps. Except for the fluffies, which is considerable and completely invalidates any complaints about mire's animation time. Damn fluffies. Insert my standard rant about photon seekers here.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Ridiculous amounts. 126.25% before Hasten, if memory serves.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
How much recharge does your build have?
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Dwarf's mire needs little more than good slotting to be a persistent buff.
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The Human Sunless Mire has an uptime ratio of 30/120, so it requires 300% in total recharge to become permanent.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
PvP is a fraction of the game but Kheldians as a whole represent another fraction. A fraction of the game is still a part of the game. PvP is single target based not aoe based and thats a fact. AV's are single targets. After the initial mobs standing by the AV are gone there is nothing aoe based about an AV fight. Please tell me this isn't true.
During an AV fight with a team all the things that make a Warshade awesome are diminished. Warshade buffs and aoe's are not as effective on a single target as they are on multiple targets. -Def is a debuff and other players and pets in this game do not autohit targets so you could never argue that -def isn't a useful debuff. If you've played the incarnate content you'll notice everything is lvl 54, but I guess its silly to think -def is a useless debuff for a teams facing that content. IO's are in the game and if I modify my PB to offer -40% resist as a secondary effect in an AV battle I am offering more to my team than my WS could. -Def and the possibility of -res are a bigger deal on a team than -spd on a target that isn't moving and -rech that isn't helping offensively. Stygian circle does not matter while the AV is alive and its the only mob in the room. A PB is more survivable than a WS and offers relevant debuffs in a AV fight. I know the WS has 2 stuns to offer. If someone else on the team isn't stacking stuns with the WS, then its not enough to shut off that AV's offense and those stuns don't matter.
Minor debuffs that increase team offense > debuffs that don't in an AV encounter. Warshades are amazing BEFORE you reach an AV.
Maps are filled with mobs therefore the majority of the game is easy to kill mobs. Got it. The greatest challenges of the game are AV's and players. PLEASE try to argue that large groups of lower ranked mobs are harder and more relevant.
Joe, how can you say AV's aren't a major part of the game? Please list all the Task Forces and Trials you've been on where there wasn't an EB or AV to fight at the end? Compare this to the number of TF's and Trials that have them. I'll wait. You really think people care if you helped kill weak mobs that don't matter and offered less help at the AV? I say they don't matter b/c most of the maps in this game DO NOT require you to kill all mobs but they DO require you to kill a single target (or click a glowie) for completion.
Dech's, I agree that the mire gives WS's the edge on dmg but that still comes with the risk of entering melee range of the AV to gain that dmg. A WS tank is not as good as a PB tank. Double-mired terrible damage is still bad damage. Lets not polish a turd here. If your tanking its for a team with a decent composition you're going to cap res on the PB or WS so eclipse is not a major factor. (The exception is vs Psi.) If your tanking an AV are you going to drop out of dwarf to hit eclipse and hit a mire? Sounds pretty silly so lets take that out of the equation. A WS is standing there with that minor heal and a buffing bad dmg. A PB is debuffing -def (and -res if they add procs) and healing for alot more than the siphon life clone on the WS. The PB still reserves the right to safely drop out of dwarf and phase for 2 more heals while retaining aggro. Your WS does not have this option. You could phase but your not healing. Also, if I make a Nova form that sitting on 2200 HP with a heal to spare, an 80% dmg buff thats almost guaranteed to increase with a team and I still have a build up available, is your rad blaster going to outperform it? Probably not and it will live longer too. Nova form + build up is 152% dmg and Aim and Build Up are 162% dmg buff. If my PB picks up 1 team member I'm beating your dmg buff and its more sustained because half of the buff is permanent. When your Aim and Build up are recharging the PB is still blasting away with perma build up. Remember Nova ranged dmg mod is higher than a blasters too. Does a rad blaster do more consistent aoe damage than a Nova PB? Your Nuke isn't up all the time so what do you have thats significant? Base dmg on the other rad blast aoe's is lower than Nova form aoe's and 2 of the rad aoe's are melee range. What's more efficient at killing large groups of mobs Dechs? Your blaster standing melee to aoe mobs with less damage, less HP, less heals, and getting hit more often or a Nova sitting on more HP, more dmg, and getting hit less often, hmmm. The Blaster damage cap is higher but your not going to see it without a kin on the team so you'll spend a fraction of the time outdamaging a PB with a Rad blaster.
Give this one up guys. Nothing you said invalidates what I said. I never said I was killing AV's with a Kheld. You made that up. The assumption was I was on a team when I mentioned healing team members. I said that a blaster does more damage than a PB but a PB has more tools to survive. This is a fact. I understand a great offense is a good defense but survival is about..... surviving. Since I was talking about survival, I don't care about how many mobs you killed or died trying to kill. Like I said before I'm a fan of both AT's and buffs to either of them but I realize they were created for different purposes. I'd also like to see Photon Seekers changed so their AI is less retarded.
The Point (so you guys don't miss it again):
Warshades will excel at aoe-centric encounters and PB's will do the same vs AV's and PvP. This will never change as it is part of their design. Most people posting here have clearly identified this difference in design in multiple posts all over the Kheld forums. Warshades are NOT superior because you feel AV's and PvP aren't important. They are superior at the things you like to do in this game and inferior at the things you don't spend much time on. This is your bias, your opinion, not a fact.
If I like to PvP, fight AV's, and run fast TF's all the time is this going to be an AOE-centric game for me? No.
Are there alot of other players that enjoy the speeding/stealthing and activities that don't require alot of aoe's in this game? Yes, more than a small fraction.
If they made PB's more aoe-centric while sharing the same forms and inherent with Warshades what would be the point of a separate AT?
Please learn to read before you argue that I missed a point again and restate what I've already said.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
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How about AVs with ambushes? Say, for instance, in the Ice Mistral SF, Apex TF, Barracuda SF, LRSF, Lady Gray TF, and even STF just to name a few.|
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
AV's are single targets. After the initial mobs standing by the AV are gone there is nothing aoe based about an AV fight. Please tell me this isn't true.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
During an AV fight with a team all the things that make a Warshade awesome are diminished. Warshade buffs and aoe's are not as effective on a single target as they are on multiple targets.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
-Def is a debuff and other players and pets in this game do not autohit targets so you could never argue that -def isn't a useful debuff.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
If you've played the incarnate content you'll notice everything is lvl 54, but I guess its silly to think -def is a useless debuff for a teams facing that content.
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Just to be thorough, I've done the Master of Apex without defense debuffs on the team. Never missed them.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
IO's are in the game and if I modify my PB to offer -40% resist as a secondary effect in an AV battle I am offering more to my team than my WS could.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
-Def and the possibility of -res are a bigger deal on a team than -spd on a target that isn't moving and -rech that isn't helping offensively.
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When I'm making Reichsman fire off his deadly 100 mag stun AoE less often and keeping more people alive to do more damage, I'm not helping us do more damage?
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
I know the WS has 2 stuns to offer. If someone else on the team isn't stacking stuns with the WS, then its not enough to shut off that AV's offense and those stuns don't matter.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Minor debuffs that increase team offense > debuffs that don't in an AV encounter. Warshades are amazing BEFORE you reach an AV.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Maps are filled with mobs therefore the majority of the game is easy to kill mobs. Got it. The greatest challenges of the game are AV's and players. PLEASE try to argue that large groups of lower ranked mobs are harder and more relevant.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Joe, how can you say AV's aren't a major part of the game? Please list all the Task Forces and Trials you've been on where there wasn't an EB or AV to fight at the end? Compare this to the number of TF's and Trials that have them. I'll wait. You really think people care if you helped kill weak mobs that don't matter and offered less help at the AV? I say they don't matter b/c most of the maps in this game DO NOT require you to kill all mobs but they DO require you to kill a single target (or click a glowie) for completion.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Dechs, I agree that the mire gives WS's the edge on dmg but that still comes with the risk of entering melee range of the AV to gain that dmg.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
A WS tank is not as good as a PB tank.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Double-mired terrible damage is still bad damage. Lets not polish a turd here.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
If your tanking an AV are you going to drop out of dwarf to hit eclipse and hit a mire? Sounds pretty silly so lets take that out of the equation. A WS is standing there with that minor heal and a buffing bad dmg. A PB is debuffing -def (and -res if they add procs) and healing for alot more than the siphon life clone on the WS. The PB still reserves the right to safely drop out of dwarf and phase for 2 more heals while retaining aggro. Your WS does not have this option.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Also, if I make a Nova form that sitting on 2200 HP with a heal to spare, an 80% dmg buff thats almost guaranteed to increase with a team and I still have a build up available, is your rad blaster going to outperform it? Probably not and it will live longer too. Nova form + build up is 152% dmg and Aim and Build Up are 162% dmg buff. If my PB picks up 1 team member I'm beating your dmg buff and its more sustained because half of the buff is permanent. When your Aim and Build up are recharging the PB is still blasting away with perma build up. Remember Nova ranged dmg mod is higher than a blasters too. Does a rad blaster do more consistent aoe damage than a Nova PB? Your Nuke isn't up all the time so what do you have thats significant? Base dmg on the other rad blast aoe's is lower than Nova form aoe's and 2 of the rad aoe's are melee range. What's more efficient at killing large groups of mobs Dechs? Your blaster standing melee to aoe mobs with less damage, less HP, less heals, and getting hit more often or a Nova sitting on more HP, more dmg, and getting hit less often, hmmm. The Blaster damage cap is higher but your not going to see it without a kin on the team so you'll spend a fraction of the time outdamaging a PB with a Rad blaster.
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Ok, Nova form has a higher damage modifier than a blaster. You even have a damage buff. The blasters attacks still all do more damage. Don't forget defiance either.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
I said that a blaster does more damage than a PB but a PB has more tools to survive. This is a fact.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
I understand a great offense is a good defense but survival is about..... surviving. Since I was talking about survival, I don't care about how many mobs you killed or died trying to kill.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Warshades are NOT superior because you feel AV's and PvP aren't important. They are superior at the things you like to do in this game and inferior at the things you don't spend much time on. This is your bias, your opinion, not a fact.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
If they made PB's more aoe-centric while sharing the same forms and inherent with Warshades what would be the point of a separate AT?
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And get some kind of fix for Photon Seekers.
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Originally Posted by _Dawun_
If I like to PvP, fight AV's, and run fast TF's all the time is this going to be an AOE-centric game for me? No.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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And do you expect us to believe you're going to walk right up to that AV mob and start pounding on the minions? A warshade will do what any other player does: start damaging the AV, and with those minions standing around to saturate eclipse and the mires, and with bodies to saturate stygian circle when they die, a warshade will have done more damage by the time there's just one AV left than a peacebringer would, would have a persistent pet or two to do even more damage and would have more health with which to continue the fight.|
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
PvP is a fraction of the game but Kheldians as a whole represent another fraction. A fraction of the game is still a part of the game. PvP is single target based not aoe based and thats a fact. AV's are single targets. After the initial mobs standing by the AV are gone there is nothing aoe based about an AV fight. Please tell me this isn't true.
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| During an AV fight with a team all the things that make a Warshade awesome are diminished. Warshade buffs and aoe's are not as effective on a single target as they are on multiple targets. |
Even if the Warshade is tanking though, the dwarf is doing more persistent damage due to the persistent damage buff from dwarf mire - which because of the increased spawn size is significantly buffing the damage.
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| -Def is a debuff and other players and pets in this game do not autohit targets so you could never argue that -def isn't a useful debuff. |
If you hit them once, you're going to be able to hit them again without the benefit of the -def, and if they're so high above you that you can't hit them regularly, then - since you have to hit them to apply the debuff - it isn't going to do you any good at all, is it?
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| If you've played the incarnate content you'll notice everything is lvl 54, but I guess its silly to think -def is a useless debuff for a teams facing that content. IO's are in the game and if I modify my PB to offer -40% resist as a secondary effect in an AV battle I am offering more to my team than my WS could. -Def and the possibility of -res are a bigger deal on a team than -spd on a target that isn't moving and -rech that isn't helping offensively. Stygian circle does not matter while the AV is alive and its the only mob in the room. A PB is more survivable than a WS and offers relevant debuffs in a AV fight. I know the WS has 2 stuns to offer. If someone else on the team isn't stacking stuns with the WS, then its not enough to shut off that AV's offense and those stuns don't matter. |
And as far as helping your team goes, debuff set powers like freezing rain, sleet, radiation infection and melt armor are going to do far more than your attacks, making your secondary effect rather redundant, don't you think? Never mind the fact that your team is likely not going to have much problem hitting them, either, because they're 99% of the time also slotted to the tohit cap.
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| Minor debuffs that increase team offense > debuffs that don't in an AV encounter. Warshades are amazing BEFORE you reach an AV. |
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Maps are filled with mobs therefore the majority of the game is easy to kill mobs. Got it. The greatest challenges of the game are AV's and players. PLEASE try to argue that large groups of lower ranked mobs are harder and more relevant. Joe, how can you say AV's aren't a major part of the game? Please list all the Task Forces and Trials you've been on where there wasn't an EB or AV to fight at the end? Compare this to the number of TF's and Trials that have them. I'll wait. |
Going through with my calculater, I find roughly 50 missions (give or take) that contain archvillains. I count just under 450 missions that don't, and that doesn't count talk missions and patrols.There's more to this game than task forces, although to read the forums you'd think that's all that people ran. If that were true, it wouldn't take so long to assemble them, would it?
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| You really think people care if you helped kill weak mobs that don't matter and offered less help at the AV? I say they don't matter b/c most of the maps in this game DO NOT require you to kill all mobs but they DO require you to kill a single target (or click a glowie) for completion. |
And yet again: that single mob that needs killed at the end will have OTHER mobs standing around him from which the warshade can draw all that power you say it lacks in those situations.
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| Also, if I make a Nova form that sitting on 2200 HP with a heal to spare, an 80% dmg buff thats almost guaranteed to increase with a team and I still have a build up available, is your rad blaster going to outperform it? |
However, since Nova doesn't add to your hit points, and your base is 1070, this puts you at 1600-1700 hit points, which is 400-500 more hit points than the blaster's minimum of 1200 hp and right around the same level as a blaster's cap of 1600 hit points.
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| Nova form + build up is 152% dmg |
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| Warshades are NOT superior because you feel AV's and PvP aren't important. They are superior at the things you like to do in this game and inferior at the things you don't spend much time on. |
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| If I like to PvP, fight AV's, and run fast TF's all the time is this going to be an AOE-centric game for me? No. |
Stalkers are good at hard target enemies and PVP, and as such suffer justifiable penalties to the rest of the game. Peacebringers are.... okay at it. Under certain circumstances. They will never come close to the true single target damage specialists, and are not versatile enough to compensate for that by filling in for team-oriented buffers/debuffers.
My point is that they need balancing, and that I expect that balancing to lead to a buff in some form. Like I've said repeatedly: It's not that Peacebringers don't do a lot. The problem is that the game itself doesn't place enough of a value on what they do.
And fix Photon Seekers. Always that in addition to anything else I've said.
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| Are there alot of other players that enjoy the speeding/stealthing and activities that don't require alot of aoe's in this game? Yes, more than a small fraction. |
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| If they made PB's more aoe-centric while sharing the same forms and inherent with Warshades what would be the point of a separate AT? |
It's not a matter of AoE verses Single Target - it's a matter archetype balance that covers everything from recharge to damage types to the degrees of effectiveness of certain powers (like stygian circle, for example) contrasted with the price for that effectiveness (or the lack thereof, in the stygian circle example).
EDIT - Dammit, Dechs! Got your wall of text in before mine!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I'd suggest reading through this thread and separating yourself from what you've said. I hopped on to get a few ideas, and when i see all this including an expereinced kheld player saying "I deleted my PB because my blaster is better," that doesn't exactly encourage anyone to keep going or give them a try in the first place. That's not even talking about voids, but both PB and WS have to deal with them. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Not remotely. There is a difference between peacebringers needing improvement and peacebringers being fun, and if anything we've posted has led you to want to delete your peacebringer then please remember the binary nature of internet forums before typing in the name of that peacebringer for the final time:
If we demonstrate in no uncertain terms where peacebringers are falling behind, then people think we're trashing on the archetype. If - as I've done previous to this - we talk about these same things in the context of "they're falling short, but here's how you can get around it" then the false impression is given that there are minor issues at best. I might appear to be coming down hard on peacebringers in this thread, but make no mistake about it - I'm a peacebringer player. I play the archetype to the exclusion of most others, including warshades (although I do have a warshade, too). I like the self-contained buffs and the self-reliant nature of the lighter side of squiddiness; I just think the price is too high. Just after posting last night in this thread I jumped over in game and hunted a few incarnate shards on my PB and had a great time doing it. In fact, I'm betting that once more incarnate slots are released you're going to see more than a few PB's come off the shelf. But that doesn't mean they don't need fixing. |
Even the PB guide sounds like "well, nothing really works together."
And if someone here trys to bring up something their PB can do, it looks like it's immediately shot down, or they're told "that doesn't matter." And we get a weak "well, you might have fun with them" thrown in here and there. That sounds more like throwing a bone than actually trying to convince someone they might.
I don't think I've ever seen a group come down so hard on their own AT and discourage people from playing it. Yeah, masterminds complain about ninja ai and mercs, but even there it doesn't sound as bad as it's getting painted here for PBs. You have two powersets, that's it, and one's basically being pointed at and being said "Don't bother."
Intent or not, that's exactly how it's coming off.
So let me turn it around - without bringing up the points that have already been pooh-pooed as not mattering, why SHOULD I bother making or continuing to play a PB instead of deleting it and making a blaster or something else?
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Contining to play is simple...|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
why SHOULD I bother making or continuing to play a PB instead of deleting it and making a blaster or something else?
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Are you having fun still or are you frustrated. Same with any char really.
Arcs: 7041 Teleporter Authority
In My Opinion
PvE (Solo +2/+8)
WS>PB... The large mob sizes and AoE's make me happy.
PvE (Solo +2/+1)
WS<PB... Not enough to buff off of for the WS and I have more fun playing my PB in this setting. I like this for quick missions.
PvE (Team)
WS=PB ... Both bring something equally different to the team. WS will excel in AoE damage while the PB will excel in heavy Single target Damage. The -recharge from the WS will help just as much as the -defense (slotted with -resist procs) when fighting an AV. If I had to pick only one kheldian to fill the last spot in a team, I would pick a WS over a PB.
PvP (Dueling)
WS<PB... PB's ability to buff without a target makes this AT a better in duels
PvP (Zone)
WS<PB... If a WS stops in a zone to heal off the dead or some other buff that requires them to stand still near a target, they will become a target for being grounded to long.
PvP (Arena Team)
WS<PB... AoE's in PvP are weak and Single Target Damage is better.
P.S.I have 2 lvl 50 PB's and one lvl 50 WS, so I speak from personal experience.
The primary reason to play a Peacebringer:
The powers look cool. Peacebringers have a steady, dependable performance level compared to Warshades. They can't reach the peaks a Warshade can, but they don't have the valleys a Warshade does. And they're more versatile than a Warshade is.
My main character is, and continues to be, my level 50 human-form Peacebringer. Can she tank an AV solo? Only as long as Light Form is up and a tray of purple inspirations is handy. Can she defeat an AV solo? Hell no. She has trouble with Elite Bosses at +0/x1. And this is after a few billion inf were poured into her fully IO'd out build along with the Musculature Core Radial for the Alpha slot.
I enjoy playing the character. I enjoy the look of the powers. However, unlike some of the people who post here saying "Everything's fine! Really! No changes needed, it's perfect!" I'm not blind to the very large shortcomings in the Peacebringer's core design.
You don't want to hear "because it's fun," and that - given some of the replies - is understandable (and vague.) I'm also not going to go with "looks," because if we ever get a degree of power customization, that argument goes right out the window.
First, you have to like the character. I don't care how strong or weak a powerset is, if you don't like the character, it's going to be a chore. (For instance, I've got a Bots/FF mastermind. Strong, hard to touch - and boring as hell. He rarely gets played, and nearly turned me off MMs permanently.) The character has to have a 'hook' for you, either through the character itself (RP, look, etc) or as a project (one of every AT to 50, a theme team, etc.) This will help get you through rough spots - and most ATs/powersets have them, either early on (tanks not being very tank-y,) the middle (MMs being very squishy late teens-early 20s,) or late (blasters leveling off and other ATs catching up in the 30s.)
As far as PBs specifically, you're always going to have your tools available at the same strength. You don't NEED something to die if you eat alpha on the first mob - your heal's ready to go, recharge aside. You always know you're going to have that same strength buff/attack/etc. You don't need to wait for something to die. Same's true with Light Form - some may not like its crash, but know full well I'm at or near the cap as soon as I hit it and am ready to go. (Plus, I find it amusing to beat stuff up from inside itself - no collision while in Light Form.)
You don't go in with part of your offense missing, or get twitchy waiting when the team pauses for something, compared to a 'shade's essences. (Not going into the relative comparison of the pets, of course - I think I made my point on *that* clear earlier.)
Related to that, you don't lose out as badly if you don't take Dwarf. The Peacebringer is more forgiving of you taking human form. Dechs goes on about his Warshade dwarf mire - but if you don't want to take dwarf, you're losing that buff. (And you can take the slots you'd fit in there and put them in other powers.) Given some of the form-changing lag/bugs (like, oh, the tray switching but the form staying thanks to animations,) this is definitely a plus. I'd prefer those bugs squashed, of course. But there's a reason he talks about the "MF" warshade and I mention all the form/formless variants.
Quantum Flight > Nebulous Form. Faster (near instant) activation, and of course flight.
And, again even though it was somewhat degraded in earlier comments (and by i13,) a PB is generally better off than a WS in PVP (barring fighting a Mastermind.) That goes for the 'shade's stuns, as well as the fact that teleport in PVP is utterly useless now as a travel power. If that floats your boat, at least. Plus, it's easier (IMHO) to get shivans as a PB, thanks to fly and those self-contained buffs. (Hover above at 60-65 feet, and shivans don't come out to attack.) Admittedly a bit specialized, but still.
I still stand by my assertion that AVs represent no more than 1% of the total game content. As such, an advantage against AVs which can't be leveraged all that well against 99% of the rest of the game is not all that compelling a strong point for an entire (half of an) Archetype in comparisons.
And we're not "trashing" PBs in this thread. We're pointing out the flaws inherent to the assumptions which held sway when they were created (released in Issue 3...!) which have never been properly dealt with and accounted for in how the game has changed between Issues 3 and 19. The first thing you have to do in order to justify that a buff is needed is to demonstrate and prove underperformance. That's what this thread has turned into ... a demonstration and "proof" that PBs underperform and therefore not only need, but deserve, to be buffed, in order to bring them into closer (but by no means exact!) balance with their nearest counterparts ... Warshades.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Fair enough. Depending on what you want to do with your Peacebringer, there are a number of reasons to keep playing one.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
I'd suggest reading through this thread and separating yourself from what you've said. I hopped on to get a few ideas, and when i see all this including an expereinced kheld player saying "I deleted my PB because my blaster is better," that doesn't exactly encourage anyone to keep going or give them a try in the first place. That's not even talking about voids, but both PB and WS have to deal with them.
Even the PB guide sounds like "well, nothing really works together." And if someone here trys to bring up something their PB can do, it looks like it's immediately shot down, or they're told "that doesn't matter." And we get a weak "well, you might have fun with them" thrown in here and there. That sounds more like throwing a bone than actually trying to convince someone they might. I don't think I've ever seen a group come down so hard on their own AT and discourage people from playing it. Yeah, masterminds complain about ninja ai and mercs, but even there it doesn't sound as bad as it's getting painted here for PBs. You have two powersets, that's it, and one's basically being pointed at and being said "Don't bother." Intent or not, that's exactly how it's coming off. So let me turn it around - without bringing up the points that have already been pooh-pooed as not mattering, why SHOULD I bother making or continuing to play a PB instead of deleting it and making a blaster or something else? |
First - and one thing that hasn't really been mentioned much to my recollection - Peacebringers are in my opinion much better in human form than Warshades. Well, they're much easier to be good with in human form, let's put it that way. If AlienOne is still reading the forums, I'm sure he could curl your toenails with stories of what his human only WS could do, but then that warshade is IO'd to the gills. A peacebringer on nothing more than SO's can excell as a human only character, comparing to a blaster about the same as a tanker compares to a scrapper, from a damage to survival comparison. You're only problem will be mez. Take dwarf for a permanent breakfree and you've got it covered (arguably somewhat imperfectly).
Next is PVP - see, I have no issue with the statement that Peacebringers are better than Warshades at PVP, or even that they're pretty good at PvP. The only issue I have with those statements as they've been made in this thread is when they're made in the context of Peacebringers being equal overall to Warshades as a result. Yes, they're better at a marginalized part of the game, but they are better nonetheless. If PvP is your thing, I recommend trying it out on a Peacebringer. I had great fun when I did, and all I really did was slot my nova with range and rectified reticle's increased perception. Human/Nova combos do even better, I hear.
On teams, the disparity between peacebringers and warshades still exists, but becomes less apparent. If you're into teaming, then a Peacebringer is a solid, fun ride. In fact, I'd argue that the Peacebringer's inherent is better suited to teaming than a Warshade's. A team of damage dealers really don't need the extra damage granted to a warshade, but the Peacebringer will be well nigh immortal on such a team, and is able to tank and survive better than anyone on the team.
Peacebringers are also frontloaded, in that they get bigger powers earlier in the game than Warshades. It took me forever to get into my Warshade. My Peacebringer was awe inspiring by contrast from level 6 to level 32.
And the powers do look very cool.
If I and others sound like we're coming down hard it's because we focused for so long on what we liked about the archetype that the issues we do have tend to be ignored. The problem with Photon Seekers, for example, has been around for YEARS, and when the first pass of changes to it didn't address all of the issues, we all said "At least it's an improvement. It'll do for now." and nothing ever got done about it again.
Go back through the threads and you'll see that whenever an issue has been brought up in the Kheld forums the response has ranged from tepid to downright apologetic. And I include myself as the biggest squid in the puddle there. Like I said in the post you responded to; we're damned if we do and damned if we don't: respond positively to the archetype's problems by pointing out what's still good and we come off as content apologists. Defend your stance on the archetype's imbalances and you're accused of bashing.
Peacebringers have their problems and they are hugely out of balance with Warshades, but if you team even a little it's well worth the ride.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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You left out the fight with Romulus at the end of the ITF. I already considered this when I made the statement. Okay, Final AV of Ice Mistral, BM during Apex, Stinger during LRSF, Reichman during Barricuda, and you only get ambushes if you kill the Gens before the AV's during the LGTF. So 6 examples vs how many instances where this is not the case Dech's? Count that massive number up and compare to this 6. You haven't proven me wrong.| How about AVs with ambushes? Say, for instance, in the Ice Mistral SF, Apex TF, Barracuda SF, LRSF, Lady Gray TF, and even STF just to name a few. |
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| I've already demonstrated that even though all my awesome fuel is gone, my WS still contributes more to an AV fight than your PB. My Sunless Mire gives me more damage over time than your build up. |
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| Correction: Radiation Infection is auto hit, along with plenty of other AoE debuffs (see what I did there?) that are persistent. |
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| Listen kid, I've fought the level 54 Captain Mako, and I'll tell you that -def requiring a tohit check is completely worthless, especially when compared to tohit buffs that are so common amongst support teammates. |
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| Just to be thorough, I've done the Master of Apex without defense debuffs on the team. Never missed them. |
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| Unless anyone else on the team has those IOs. They don't stack at all. I'd rather have a sonic blaster in your place if that's all you have to offer. |
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| -Recharge isn't offensive? Really? So when I'm making Honoree's godmode recharge slower, I'm not helping us do more damage? |
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| When I'm making Reichsman fire off his deadly 100 mag stun AoE less often and keeping more people alive to do more damage, I'm not helping us do more damage? |
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| You almost win here, except that my WS has just as many holds as your PB |
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| As stated, my Warshade is just as good against an AV as your PB. So we go from awesome to "as good as a PB" when we get to the AV. Thanks for the insult. |
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| One foe is easy to tank and spank. Large numbers that exceed the aggro cap and multiple ambushes of debuffing minions, not so easy. |
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| I've got one for you, please list the amount of time you spend fighting through the missions in all those task forces compared to the amount of time you spend fighting the AVs in those task forces. I'll wait. |
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| Hundreds of hours of playtime later and this has yet to be a problem. |
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| For tanking, maybe, but a PB tank is still no where near as good as a real tank. Likely, if your team needs a tank, they don't want a kheldian for that role, and they'd be right. I wouldn't want a PB or a WS to tank for my team (assuming we felt we needed a tank) because that gives us a crappy tank and hamstrings what the PB can do. |
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| You must not have ever played a Warshade if you say something like this. Not only does Black Dwarf have one more attack than the White Dwarf, saturated mires push damage way into awesome. Against an AV, the tank isn't expected to do much damage, and anyway, the kheldian should not be the tank for the team. If it's a tankless team that just wants a beefy guy to taunt the AV, then fine. Both my warshade and your PB will perform the task equally well. |
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| Wait, a WS dropping to eclipse is silly, but a PB dropping to heal is safe? |
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Excuse me, but BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok, Nova form has a higher damage modifier than a blaster. You even have a damage buff. The blasters attacks still all do more damage. Don't forget defiance either. |
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| I beg to differ. A blaster can reach levels of survivability via softcap that a PB cannot reach as easily. |
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| Survival means nothing if you can't kill what you're fighting. If a blaster survives against a larger group of enemies because he can defeat them all before they kill him, and a PB cannot, who was more survivable? |
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| Except you're wrong here. Ok, my WS can't PvP very well, but PvP is broken anyway. When it comes to AVs though, as I have demonstrated, we're on equal ground. If one AT does 70% of the game better than another AT, 20% as good as that AT, and 5% worse, don't you see a problem? |
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| Where was I asking for PBs to be more AoE-centric? I think they are plenty AoE capable, meaning they have the powers. I just want to see them do more damage. Right now it's downright anemic. |
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| Actually it does. As soon as you said fast TFs, you need to be able to clear large spawns |
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| And do you expect us to believe you're going to walk right up to that AV mob and start pounding on the minions? A warshade will do what any other player does: start damaging the AV, and with those minions standing around to saturate eclipse and the mires, and with bodies to saturate stygian circle when they die, a warshade will have done more damage by the time there's just one AV left than a peacebringer would, would have a persistent pet or two to do even more damage and would have more health with which to continue the fight. |
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People have fought lvl 54 foes long before there was incarnate content and hit pretty consistently. In a game where two level 50 Accuracy IO enhancements put you at the tohit cap no one on a team running incarnate level content is going to be below that cap, a defense debuff isn't going to help you that much. And as far as helping your team goes, debuff set powers like freezing rain, sleet, radiation infection and melt armor are going to do far more than your attacks, making your secondary effect rather redundant, don't you think? Never mind the fact that your team is likely not going to have much problem hitting them, either, because they're 99% of the time also slotted to the tohit cap. |
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| Going through with my calculater, I find roughly 50 missions (give or take) that contain archvillains. I count just under 450 missions that don't, and that doesn't count talk missions and patrols.There's more to this game than task forces, although to read the forums you'd think that's all that people ran. If that were true, it wouldn't take so long to assemble them, would it? |
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| You're not going to make a nova form that's sitting on 2200 HP, because that 2400 HP cap is there to give Dwarf Form more hit points. The White Dwarf power acts like a toggle-based essence boost, giving you 800 more hit points. Fully slotted, Essence Boost is going to give you just under 700 more hit points than you had before. This, added to the 1070 base hit points you already had, brings you right up to that 2400 cap (and a bit past). |
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| Warshades are demonstrably not inferior to Peacebringers in those areas where you claim they are weak, and no one is saying that AV's and PvP aren't important. Well, no one is saying that AV's aren't important, anyway. What we're saying is that they're such a small part of the entirety of the game that it makes little sense to leave a fantastic archetype like Peacebringers falling short in every other way because they are only adequate at those parts you enjoy. |
Big Self heals > Smaller heals possibly negated by incoming damage or failure to hit.
AV's and all content that contains them and PvP may represent a smaller portion of the overall content available to players. Players don't spread their time evenly around all the content. People are playing content involving EB/AV's more often than all that other content. You said it even seems that way. Since there are alot of players engaged in content involving AV's you can't say that PB's fail over half of the game. Another thing, I'm not saying Warshades are worthless but they are less useful for that specific situation. They are pretty worthless in pvp though, lol. They were never designed for it and never adapted for it.
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No one in this thread thus far has argued that Peacebringers need to be more AOE centric. In fact, I would argue that they are JUST AS AOE CAPABLE as Warshades. Solar Flare, White Dwarf Flare, Two AoE blasts in Nova, two AoE blasts in human, Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike make for enormous AoE potential. The only people mentioning AoE has been in the context of the Warshade depending on it. It's not a matter of AoE verses Single Target - it's a matter archetype balance that covers everything from recharge to damage types to the degrees of effectiveness of certain powers (like stygian circle, for example) contrasted with the price for that effectiveness (or the lack thereof, in the stygian circle example). |
Look, I'd like to see upgrades to Kheldians as a whole and improvements to some of the powers as much as any other poster. I play both Khelds so why wouldn't I want to see that? PB powers need improvements but there are some Warshade powers that could be better too. I do not share this view that Warshades are "Vastly Superior" at the majority of the game. I do not believe PB's were ever meant to be great at dealing with large mobs like Warshades can. Unless someone has some real good evidence of this other than, "Well, there are lots of groups of mobs in the game, like 70% of it, therefore they are teh Uber and PB's are horribad", I am done here.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
I might have to go back and re-read those parts, then.
WRT slotting, you didn't say anything about that - I did. My way of trying to see both sides of an issue by bringing up points that might run counter to what I'm thinking.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies