Please devs!!! A 'natural' controller set...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-25 12:55 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This has been bought up a few times in the suggestions forum, in general I like the idea of a "gadget" control set (particuarly if it's accopanied by a sword and pistol set for Dominators).
Oh yeah, welcome to the forums.
Also, "natural" can mean anything you want it to. While I understand what you are getting at, any power in this game can be considered "natural". It all depends on your bio.
Aye, are you an alien from the planet Quantro? Does everyone on your planet have the ability to fly and generate fire? Then if you took fire/fire and plan on flying, your 'natural'. Are you an entity made entirely of rock? If there was no experiments, mutations, or magic involved in your coming into existence... Then being a stone/stone brute or tanker could be natural origin to you. Are you a psychic? Widows are all psychic to one degree or another. Yet they are Natural origin. Their psi powers are natural, they just train to use them.
I have a dark melee/regen scrapper. He's natural origin though. He got his powers cause the universe decided to finally answer the eternal question of "Who cares?" It was natural forces which granted him the powers. He wasn't born a mutant, nor was he mutated by an outside force. Science didn't give him his powers, nor does he use magic in any way. He just woke up one day Caring, and with the power to help those in need. He is... the One Who Cares.
I have an elven archery/devices blaster. RP wise, she uses pseudo-tech cause her innate magic is unreliable outside of the faerie realm. She's natural origin though. Her skill with a bow is from training, and all elves have innate magic. She just trained to call upon it and enlisted allies. I RP her targeting drone is actually a pixie friend who helps her spot hard to see foes, and her gun drone will be another pixie friend RP wise. It'll just appear as a machine to others cause pixies like to hide their existence.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Trick Arrow is natural, and it's also a controller set 
Plant Control is very natural, too.
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I see what you did there. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
Plant Control is very natural, too.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas?
Eh, Gravity control, fire control, elec control, earth and even ice control can easily come from gadgets.
Mind and illusion are psionic in nature, so those can be natural too
plant is well, nature.
So that sums up all the control sets. I'm sure someone else can sum up all the secondary sets 
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Thug control! You snap your fingers and guys run in from off screen and put your target in an armlock! |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas? |
More seriously, I once casually threw together an "Arrow Control" powerset to go with Trick Arrow:
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Archery Control, as a counterpart for Trick Arrow. Something like this (the first two pretty much have to be copies of TA powers): 1: Entangling Arrow: Single target immobilize. 2: Freeze Arrow: Single target hold. 3: Net Arrow: AoE net style immobilize. 4: Incendiary Arrow: Causes moderate fire damage with DoT on target, and can spread to nearby targets. A chain effect, like Chain Induction. Useful for lighting Oil Slick too. 5: Barbed Arrow: This painful and difficult to remove arrow disables the target for some time. Single target slow/damage & accuracy debuff power, minor DoT damage. 6: Stun Arrow: AoE stun, the bread-and-butter AoE control power. 7: Cryogenic Arrow: AoE Hold. 8: Arrow Storm: By unleashing a massive flurry of arrows you drive your enemies into a panicked attempt to escape the onslaught. A Rain of Arrows style targeted AoE that does minor damage but causes Fear. 9: Summon Disciples: Your martial prowess has attracted fellow devotees of the ancient forms of combat whom you can summon to aid you in battle. You summon three human NPC pets, which are randomly either archers or swordfighters. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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A Judo based or grappling martial art melee control set. Pressure point attacks combined with throws (which would take some animation finesse to look right, but it's possible) and knockdowns. Would be a great excuse for creating a Martial Art Assault/Manipulation set to go with it.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas? |
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Well I believe in the CoH universe, one can be a psychic without being a mutant, magical demon, and just a natural human with a developed mind.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not so sure how Natural a 5 foot Venus Fly Trap that runs around eating people is. Organic, yes. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
Plant Control is very natural, too.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas? |
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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... if the engine could deal with grappling, that is.
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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
A Judo based or grappling martial art melee control set. Pressure point attacks combined with throws (which would take some animation finesse to look right, but it's possible) and knockdowns. Would be a great excuse for creating a Martial Art Assault/Manipulation set to go with it.
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Which it can't for a variety of reasons.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... if the engine could deal with grappling, that is.
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i'm still not clear how one would make a 'natural' control set that wouldn't be similar to what we already have. Suggestions involving gadgets actually make it more of a technological set, and most of the sets already work pretty well with the "my gadgets cause this effect" approach.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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you're thinking of a Traps powerset so to say, which is kind of tricky to convert it into a workable Controller set, because if it's going to be for the role of a standard being, who's just really good at making stuff...we have to set stuff up before attacking, which isn't really feasible for this game and would get extremely boring fast for most people I'd imagine.|
Originally Posted by Jed Justice
Howdy everyone, this is my first post on the forums- so bear with me. I've seen lots of people calling for a natural controller set, but nobody really comes out with many ideas... So I'm here to throw in on a brainstorm of sorts.
I love playing natural characters. My primary toon since GR is a TA/Dual pistols def. and I'm having a blast... but why are there no natural-ish controller sets? Here's some ideas: 1. Sticky grenade- like web grenade, but with damage? 2. Stun Gun- single target hold 3. Tear Gas- group/PBAOE confuse (or stun?) 4. Sleep Grenade- duh. 5. (I don't remember what they're called...) one of those grenades that explodes into a bunch of rubber balls... stingball grenade(?)- targeted AOE with Knockdown and continues to KD foes for a while (like earthquake or ice slick) 6. Flashbang Grenade- targeted AOE stun/disorient? 7. One of those sweet stun gun wall things that SWAT uses that shoots a cone of darts.... - cone hold 8. A mortar turret- firing frag, flashbang, and venom grenades! Just my idea of how a set like this could work... any other ideas gang? |
let me give this a shot...unsure what to do about Tier 1-3 and 9, though I'm currently thinking about the various riot control toys we have...and don't want to use a Gun Drone...
1)
2)
3)
4) Fire Bomb (AoE attack Fire/Smashing damage, DoT, Knockback)
5) Forcefield Generator
6) Flashbang Grenade (AoE Stun/ToHit Debuff)
7) Tear Gas (AoE Hold)
8) Seeker Drones
9) something along the lines of summoning Spec Ops...
if you're worried about the techy details, I personally wouldn't worry about it since typically Technology and Natural go hand-in-hand.
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It doesn't have to be actual grappling.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... if the engine could deal with grappling, that is.
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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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I prefer the term "skill based". |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Also, "natural" can mean anything you want it to. While I understand what you are getting at, any power in this game can be considered "natural". It all depends on your bio.
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Perhaps a more precise request would be, "Some sort of Control set based on gadgets or weaponry".
There's actually a lot of possibilities like this (Sonic or Rad in melee, or Earth at range) but it's not exactly Proliferation since the sets don't already exist. I definately think we need to start seeing them, though.
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No, no, while Traps and Devices have some good examples to build on, things like Force Field Generator are totally out of place in a Control set. You do not have buffs or debuffs in a Control set, that's why they're Control sets and not Buff/Debuff. |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
you're thinking of a Traps powerset so to say, which is kind of tricky to convert it into a workable Controller set, because if it's going to be for the role of a standard being, who's just really good at making stuff...
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Fortunately, Buff/Debuff and Blaster Manipulation DO have a lot of control powers, so they could be used. In general, you're going to want grenades, gasses and sprayed substances that hold foes in place and control their aggro. The Web Grenade, Caltrops, Taser, Cloaking Device and probably Smoke Grenade from Devices, and Poison Trap from Traps, as well as perhaps something similar to the Ice and Oil Slick Arrow.
There would need to be some new powers, though. There would need to be a single target hold (like the Ice Arrow) plus an AoE hold. There would also need to be an AoE soft control, probably a Wide Area Web Grenade to go with the standard Web Grenade. And unlike the other versions, they should deal damage, perhaps they could be combined with the Taser to produce an Electrified Web Grenade. Glue could replace Caltrops, since the webs would now deal damage.
While a Control set using a Bow would be a nice option, obviously you COULDN'T use the Ice Arrow, since that's already covered in Trick Arrow. And a Controller set without a single target hold would be really odd. However, instead of an Incendiary Arrow that deals damage, perhaps an effect similar to Char could be produced which makes choking smoke and soot. This would be a good combo to set of Oil Slick Arrow. A strong single target stun/knockback effect might be good for the return of the Boxing Glove Arrow, too.
I think that should be a lower priority than the generic gadget-based set though. And if you make a bow-based Control set, should there be an assault rifle and pistol based set too? Doms will also need an Assault set based on the Bow. (Although they'll need one for pistols or something anyway)
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Point of fact, if you read the info for various Family bosses, you find out they use tech for their powers. Mind troller family boss? He's using a device for the mind control. Super strength family boss? He's using a device. Grav troller family boss? Yet again he's using a device.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Eh, Gravity control, fire control, elec control, earth and even ice control can easily come from gadgets.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Even in comics it can happened. The original Question (DC comics) for example gained psychic powers through meditation years after he started fighting crime.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well I believe in the CoH universe, one can be a psychic without being a mutant, magical demon, and just a natural human with a developed mind.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Whatever it is, please NO WEAPON REDRAW!!!! I can't emphasize this enough because Dominator uses both primary and secondary so often. Playing /Thorn is annoying because every time you use holds, you have to draw out the thorn for assault powers.
Yes, I want a "natural" set but it's more of "Gadget" kind of control/assault set. There's a lot of talks/ideas about "natural" set. I vote for Martial Art style Assault and Gadget/Whip controls.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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You do know that weapon redraw hasn't added to attack animation/activation length in years right? The power takes the same length of time to go off with redraw that it would without redraw. And if it does take longer due to redraw, /bug it since it's not suppose to.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Whatever it is, please NO WEAPON REDRAW!!!! I can't emphasize this enough because Dominator uses both primary and secondary so often. Playing /Thorn is annoying because every time you use holds, you have to draw out the thorn for assault powers.
Yes, I want a "natural" set but it's more of "Gadget" kind of control/assault set. There's a lot of talks/ideas about "natural" set. I vote for Martial Art style Assault and Gadget/Whip controls. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I am pretty sure this is wrong. Weapon redraw definitely adds more activation (for the first attack anyway) to the attacks. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
You do know that weapon redraw hasn't added to attack animation/activation length in years right? The power takes the same length of time to go off with redraw that it would without redraw. And if it does take longer due to redraw, /bug it since it's not suppose to.
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For example, on my Fire/Thorn Dominator, I would use ST Hold and I would jump back and do Impale. Impale won't go off until I reach the ground because drawing thorn out takes time. If my thorn is out and do a jump back Impale, Impale goes off before I land.
Weapon redraw is very obvious on Bane when I switch between Venom Grenade and Mace Attacks.
I think you got it backward. It used to not add more time to activation but now it does and it's been a long while.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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No, it doesn't. Back in 04 or so drawing a weapon increased the animation length of the power triggering it. In fact, it didn't even start the power activation till the draw animation was done. This I believe is why weapon sets were given a baked in accuracy boost.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am pretty sure this is wrong. Weapon redraw definitely adds more activation (for the first attack anyway) to the attacks.
For example, on my Fire/Thorn Dominator, I would use ST Hold and I would jump back and do Impale. Impale won't go off until I reach the ground because drawing thorn out takes time. If my thorn is out and do a jump back Impale, Impale goes off before I land. Weapon redraw is very obvious on Bane when I switch between Venom Grenade and Mace Attacks. I think you got it backward. It used to not add more time to activation but now it does and it's been a long while. |
After much complaining though they changed it. Now weapon draw shaves off time from the power's activation animation when it happens. It takes just as long to fire Glue Arrow for example with the bow already drawn as it does if your bow wasn't drawn before hand.
The longer animations was the big complaint about redraw, hence why they removed the redraw delay before power activation.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Howdy everyone, this is my first post on the forums- so bear with me. I've seen lots of people calling for a natural controller set, but nobody really comes out with many ideas... So I'm here to throw in on a brainstorm of sorts.
I love playing natural characters. My primary toon since GR is a TA/Dual pistols def. and I'm having a blast... but why are there no natural-ish controller sets? Here's some ideas:
1. Sticky grenade- like web grenade, but with damage?
2. Stun Gun- single target hold
3. Tear Gas- group/PBAOE confuse (or stun?)
4. Sleep Grenade- duh.
5. (I don't remember what they're called...) one of those grenades that explodes into a bunch of rubber balls... stingball grenade(?)- targeted AOE with Knockdown and continues to KD foes for a while (like earthquake or ice slick)
6. Flashbang Grenade- targeted AOE stun/disorient?
7. One of those sweet stun gun wall things that SWAT uses that shoots a cone of darts.... - cone hold
8. A mortar turret- firing frag, flashbang, and venom grenades!
Just my idea of how a set like this could work... any other ideas gang?