Please devs!!! A 'natural' controller set...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-25 12:55 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well within the realm of error for using a stopwatch.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Just tested it in fact on my spider. Using the wolf spider attack Single Shot I fired with, and without redraw, using a stopwatch to time each attack's length between hitting the power and damage being dealt. Both times, it was 1 second. And checking the power's info, the activation time is 0.90 seconds.
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"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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I haven't done any real "timing" test after the change but visually, it is very annoying to keep drawing out weapons and visually, it feels like it is really slowing you down. The worst one is probably dual pistol.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, it doesn't. Back in 04 or so drawing a weapon increased the animation length of the power triggering it. In fact, it didn't even start the power activation till the draw animation was done. This I believe is why weapon sets were given a baked in accuracy boost.
After much complaining though they changed it. Now weapon draw shaves off time from the power's activation animation when it happens. It takes just as long to fire Glue Arrow for example with the bow already drawn as it does if your bow wasn't drawn before hand. The longer animations was the big complaint about redraw, hence why they removed the redraw delay before power activation. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Sounds like a Tech background, not a Natural Background :P
Just had to say it.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
Redraw was eliminated from Broadsword and Battle Axe in Issue 12. The patch notes say "Attack times... have been normalized to eliminate pauses between attacks", but the "pauses" are the redraw times. Claws was later altered here. Presumably, War Mace had already eliminated the redraw time, according to BaB it was inconsistent whether redraw time was included in a cast time or not.
It's funny that this argument still comes up. All sets that include a "weapon", which is any set that requires a change in stance to activate a power, causes redraw, which takes additional time. If you use a power that does not match the stance of the weapon, then the weapon is put away and must be drawn again.
Honestly, I see no reason to use a weapon based Control Primary as grenades and other gadgets, similar to Traps and Devices, would work just as well, and a "Riot Gun" that fired all sorts of different payloads would be unnecessarily complicated. However, any weapon-based Secondary, from one using pistols to a machine gun or a bow would obviously have to have a weapon and draw it.
At least a bow-based Control set would not force redraw with a bow-based Assault set. (Or, for that matter, Trick Arrow, where Controllers are concerned) But it would do nothing for an Assault Set based on pistols or martial arts, or any of the existing Secondaries.
(BTW, just to say it, I believe Thorns/Spines does NOT have redraw. There is a pause between attacks if you already have the quills out. I think this is because the tech involved with those graphics is a little different. However, I'm not 100% sure, and this isn't about Thorns anyway, it's about a new set having redraw)
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Wouldn't that mean Assault Rifle, Archery, Devices, Traps and Trick Arrow are also Tech and not Natural? |
Originally Posted by _Pine_
Sounds like a Tech background, not a Natural Background :P
Just had to say it. |
You honestly can't have any kind of Ranged, Buff/Debuff or Control Power Set in which you just use your bare hands. You have to use SOME kind of weapon to achieve a greater than 7 foot range.
(Of course, none of those are Tech, Natural, or any other Origin. You can have a Magic hero that uses a machine gun and traps, if you want to...)
What the OP is really asking for is a gadgets based control set more than a 'natural' control set (a tech/natural set). The problem there is that any gadget controls are going to have possible conflicts with /traps, which I definitely want to see ported over to controllers eventually.
What I think might be a better choice is to see if we can get some alternate animations for the existing control sets that are more tech oriented - not sure if thats possible or easy to do, but it would help a lot without having to design and balance a new set (and prevent it from overlapping with /traps). At least the mechanics for providing alternate animations are already in place - the only trick is designing a 'tech' like animation that takes the same time as existing ones.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Consider, Manticore is Natural origin. And he's a TA/A defender with teleport pool for travel. Why is he natural instead of tech? Because he doesn't RELY on tech. Take away his fancy bow, take away his trick arrows, and he could still out fight many villains. How does he teleport? By tapping into the mediport system for his own use.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Wouldn't that mean Assault Rifle, Archery, Devices, Traps and Trick Arrow are also Tech and not Natural?
You honestly can't have any kind of Ranged, Buff/Debuff or Control Power Set in which you just use your bare hands. You have to use SOME kind of weapon to achieve a greater than 7 foot range. (Of course, none of those are Tech, Natural, or any other Origin. You can have a Magic hero that uses a machine gun and traps, if you want to...) |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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*Nods* An example of the opposite that I like to use is Captain America. His Origin is apparently Science, he got his "powers" from an experimental serum. But he has no real powers, he can't fly or teleport or control the flight path of his sheild with his mind or anything. Like Batman, his so-called "powers" are in his skill with the weapons that he uses, and a physical fitness level which is at the peak of human ability.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Consider, Manticore is Natural origin. And he's a TA/A defender with teleport pool for travel. Why is he natural instead of tech? Because he doesn't RELY on tech. Take away his fancy bow, take away his trick arrows, and he could still out fight many villains. How does he teleport? By tapping into the mediport system for his own use.
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You can't really associate Origin with any particular Power Set, because powers don't really tell you where the power comes from. Some of the game graphics can make it harder to pick one Origin over another, but there's no saying whether the ability to throw fire is a mutation, a magic spell, the result of an accident, a gadget or weapon, or some sort of high technology. And even then there's the possibility that you shoot fire from your hands because you're a mutant, but you toss grenades or wear a jetpack because otherwise your power wouldn't give you that ability.
Which is not to say that the "theme" of gadgets and gizmos doesn't need a representative Control Power Set.
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New natural powerset for Doms and Controllers. Forum Control:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so we got 'natural alien/being' control sets, could probably use some 'gadget use' control sets but those other sets could be explained as coming from gadgets (like Elec Control) but what would a control set that doesn't come from a device be if the character was simply a human with no powers?
Any bright ideas? |
1: Light Jab. Ranged, single target psionic damage (heals in full after a few seconds). Essentially a clone of Spectral Wounds. By insulting someone, you cause them to think they've been mortally wounded and retaliate. It's only afterward that they realize it's just a game. By then, it's far, far too late.
1: Casual Remark. Ranged, single target hold. It doesn't matter what you mention. Maybe you think Corruptors aren't very good at doing melee damage. Whatever your opinion, there's that one guy who takes offense and is shocked -- SHOCKED -- that you'd say such a thing. After the hold duration, prepare to be violently assaulted by that one guy.
2: Troll Bait. Ranged, AoE immobilize, +taunt. If you thought normal AoE immobs made people attack you, try one that taunts too! This power throws out an insult about how everyone else in the thread (except you of course) is just a blithering idiot. This will cause all readers to stop in their tracks and post immediately.
6: Wall of Text. Ranged, AoE sleep. You expel a huge wall of text, with no end in sight. You didn't even format it with paragraphs. Those unlucky enough to try and read it are quickly put to sleep. Unfortunately, it has low accuracy; most skip over it and say "tl;dr"
8: Necromancy. Melee, Single Target. You bring one thread back to life by posting in it even after it died. The thread is granted a short but powerful lifespan wherein several people will mention that it was necromanced, and repeatedly droll on about how a mod should clean it up, before one finally does.
12: Thread Repost. Ranged, AoE stun. You stun everyone by reposting the same thread that's already been posted at least 500 trillion times. You even go out of your way to NOT do a forum search. After the stunned silence, affected individuals regain consciousness and spend three pages telling you that this is old news. Inevitably, someone will provide a copypaste before the thread dies. Works in conjunction with Necromancy for a combo bonus.
18: Ragequit. PBAoE hold. All it takes is once well-aimed rage post about how this is the final straw that broke the camel's back and how the devs personally hate you. Affected posters will be unable to do anything except ask if they can have your stuff for at least three pages.
26: Math Whiz. Summon power. By invoking math equations that you probably just made up, you summon 1-3 small math whizzes who come to school you on how wrong you totally are. Other than minor insults, they contribute little to the conversation before leaving. This power has a small chance of summoning one Arcanaville, who instantly kills you.
32: Godwin. You had to summon him at some point.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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A natural control set would be incredible! something that could be truly justified as a natural set, not an alien race whos natural, or someone who uses lightning zappy gloves, NO! im talking about a good ole control set that is either grenade mastery,arrow control, device oriented control, SOMETHING! 
that is all
Jordon Justice
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For a while he had Stark add all sorts of tech to his original shield that let him control it mid flight. During that period of time he could cause it to swerve mid-air without hitting anything. Later tore all that tech out. Currently he has an energy shield built by Stark I believe. Thus CA might have a case for natural, tech, and science origins.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
*Nods* An example of the opposite that I like to use is Captain America. His Origin is apparently Science, he got his "powers" from an experimental serum. But he has no real powers, he can't fly or teleport or control the flight path of his sheild with his mind or anything. Like Batman, his so-called "powers" are in his skill with the weapons that he uses, and a physical fitness level which is at the peak of human ability.
You can't really associate Origin with any particular Power Set, because powers don't really tell you where the power comes from. Some of the game graphics can make it harder to pick one Origin over another, but there's no saying whether the ability to throw fire is a mutation, a magic spell, the result of an accident, a gadget or weapon, or some sort of high technology. And even then there's the possibility that you shoot fire from your hands because you're a mutant, but you toss grenades or wear a jetpack because otherwise your power wouldn't give you that ability. Which is not to say that the "theme" of gadgets and gizmos doesn't need a representative Control Power Set. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Well, honestly, I think that's my point. By that time you've got people changing Origins all over the place. To me, your Origin is where you start. It's the core or foundation of your powers, so to speak. Captain America may use a high tech shield or employ combat training he learned in the military, but what got him STARTED on that road was the will that caused him to enroll in the Supersoldier program because he was otherwise too physically unfit to serve his country when he felt that was needed. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
For a while he had Stark add all sorts of tech to his original shield that let him control it mid flight. During that period of time he could cause it to swerve mid-air without hitting anything. Later tore all that tech out. Currently he has an energy shield built by Stark I believe. Thus CA might have a case for natural, tech, and science origins.
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'Course, that almost makes it sound like Natural.
The thing is, though, without the Supersoldier serum, none of the rest of it would ever have happened.
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Or perhaps a 'Presence' type of theme where enemies are affected aversely to you simply being around. Mind Control is kind of more direct (I'm controlling *YOU!*) but I could imagine a Presence control theme to work like toggles.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
New natural powerset for Doms and Controllers. Forum Control:
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For a bare-hand control set, some type of martial arts/pressure point/dim mak type close-ranged controls, perhaps balanced by their close proximity by blending in soft control or just good damage in with their hard controls...
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Well, sure, they could come from gadgets, but they're leaning more towards Highly Advanced Technology (Tech Origin) and not Modern Technology + Training (Natural Origin).
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Eh, Gravity control, fire control, elec control, earth and even ice control can easily come from gadgets.
Mind and illusion are psionic in nature, so those can be natural too plant is well, nature. So that sums up all the control sets. I'm sure someone else can sum up all the secondary sets |
Just tested it in fact on my spider. Using the wolf spider attack Single Shot I fired with, and without redraw, using a stopwatch to time each attack's length between hitting the power and damage being dealt. Both times, it was 1 second. And checking the power's info, the activation time is 0.90 seconds.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History