The Impossible Mr. Trapdoor and Issue 19's New Theme

I would certainly like both Tip missions and the ability to make incarnate level AE missions to come down the line eventually

which is a map set up for a running battle, however...just nobody usually lets Mr. Roboarm run anywhere if they can help it

Bold mine.

I am worried that giving players multiple level shifts would start an arms race where devs had to add multiple level shifts to enemies to keep them conning as "hard".

Bold mine.

Have not seen this leaked info. Good to know, thanks. I too was worried that there might be 10 level shifts, but if that does not seem to be in the plans, great.

Really, it all comes down to content, and content is the reason I don't believe the developers would ever make "regular" content. Right now, they seem to be trying to be cheeky and act like they're just adding more level 50 content on top of all the other level 50 content, which means they'll take the easy route and add a few TFs every now and then. The only way we're going to see regular Incarnate content is if they start treating the Incarnate system as its own level range and give that its own regular content, but I highly doubt this is going to happen, for reasons of cost and investment, if nothing else.

Think back to the times we've gotten a level cap increase in the past, once with I1 and once again with I7. Each time we got a VERY belated Issue which didn't exactly have a ton of content to it, and in the case of I1 was padded to hell and back. This is what would need to happen for the Incarnate system several times over, and that is simply not something I expect the developers to be willing to commit to, when just adding a couple of TFs per Issue is so much cheaper.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I don't think we will be. I believe we'll get at most 4 level shifts and still be dealing with level 54 enemies. Those enemies might have tricks of their own, but for some of the reasons put forth in this thread, I don't see them moving past the level 54 entity.

Clearly, I believe you've missed the point.

no, I think she interpreted you correctly

As an idea... the 800lb Gorilla MMO has only released 3 (yes 3) expansions... that is 3 content updates, 3 "continents" in the 6 years that it has released.. but with each and every expansion it has also trashed ALL the level cap content that it had previously.

Talking from experiance, I was near the cap before its 1st expansion released.. but never taken part in end game content.. then came the expansion, and i was getting better than raid gear from completing normal gear.

Raising the level cap, is NOT an idea that would work with CoX *now*, unless you effectively want to trash everything that players have worked for previously. Of course, if you make gear "level-less" then what is the point of taking part in more end game content.

Personally, the level shifts *work* for me... even if you slot just to avoid the "level deficit" at least you are getting a bonus on top of your existing build, whilst also working towards a better goal.

Sorry, what was that? All i heard was a dull buzzing noise.

IIRC, the tables that the game uses for looking up values (such as resistances for PToD) doesn't go past 54, either. While they could certainly add to those tables, that would be another thing to stack onto the workload.

Also, since a level-shifted character is still technically 50, they'd have to change up the difficulty sliders again to allow you to go higher than +4.

You're still wrong but hey, why fight shadows...

If you believe there has been a misinterpretation, you could try stating yourself clearly, instead of playing with implications.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

Her post discussed the fact that, done correctly, diminishing returns would be a good way to do things and that the purple patch essentially already is diminishing returns applied at a sharp level.

In particular she compared the purple patch to the idea of diminishing returns.

Two scenarios:

purple patch vs diminishing returns

***********

first, the purple patch, not sure of the numbers, so I'll use the 0.3 Arcanaville did in her example post.

three debuffers each with a -30% to hit debuff power

Said debuffers against a +4/+5 are only debuffing the target by 9% (using the 0.3 earlier)

Thus, if three debuffers use the same power, the total debuff is -27%

***********

Now, diminishing returns (which technically, the purple patch is just a punitively severe version of diminishing returns)

same three debuffers

the first debuffer's power debuffs the target by -30%

the second debuffer's power debuffs the target by -20%

the third debuffer's power debuffs the target by -10%

the total debuff in this scenario is -60%, more than twice what the purple patch allows with the same three

*******

In addition, even if the the three were: -30%, -15% and -7.5%, that total would be 52.5%

enemy to hit base is 50%, thus you would be basically wasting the third power for the simple fact that at that point it's at the 5% minimum chance

***********

In response to her statement, you gave a sarcastic response.

She recognized the sarcastic response and commented that you missed her point, which you did. I can only guess that you assume that any application of diminishing returns would be similarly misapplied as they were in PvP. Arcanaville has as much said that diminishing returns was not done properly in PvP.

She was discussing diminishing returns done properly.

To be perfectly frank, diminishing returns is a natural part of the game in some enhancements just due to the nature of numbers without anybody making special formulas to evoke it:

recharges enhancement with a 33% recharge reduction on a power that recharges a base time of 60 seconds:

1 recharge enhancement - new recharge: 45s, gain over 0: 15s (60/1.33)
2 recharge enhancements - new recharge: 36s, gain over 1: 10s (60/1.66)
3 recharge enhancements - new recharge: 30s, gain over 2: 6s (60/1.99) (ignoring ED)

endurance reduction is the same

actually, the basic systems have diminishing returns

******

assume an attack with base accuracy 1, damage 100, recharge 9, endurance 9

assume the base to hit of 50% (assuming these are the stats for hitting and damaging higher level enemies, otherwise, accuracy caps at 1 enhancement)

assume no other systems and that individual variables are not limited in how they can increase save that accuracy can't give you more hits than you attempt

numbers picked for ease of calculation

********

100 attacks with no enhancements

50 hits
5000 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

5.61 dam/sec
1.01 end/sec
5.56 dam/end

********

1 damage enhancement (33%) - 133 damage

50 hits
6650 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

7.46 dam/sec (33% increase from 0 enhancements)
1.01 end/sec
7.39 dam/end (33% increase from 0 enhancements)

********

2 damage enhancements (66%) - 166 damage

50 hits
8300 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

9.32 dam/sec (25% increase from 1 enhancement)
1.01 end/sec
9.22 dam/end (25% increase from 1 enhancement)

*******

3 damage enhancements (99%) - 199 damage

50 hits
9950 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

11.17 dam/sec (20% increase from 2 enhancements)
1.01 end/sec
11.06 dam/end (20% increase from 2 enhancements)

******

1 Accuracy enhancement (33%) - 1.33 accuracy

66.5 hits
6650 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

7.46 dam/sec (33% increase from 0 enhancements)
1.01 end/sec
7.39 dam/end (33% increase from 0 enhancements)

******

2 Accuracy enhancements (66%) - 1.66 accuracy

83 hits
8300 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

9.32 dam/sec (25% increase from 1 enhancement)
1.01 end/sec
9.22 dam/end (25% increase from 1 enhancement)

******

3 Accuracy enhancements (66%) - 1.99 accuracy

99.5 hits
9950 damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

11.17 dam/sec (20% increase from 2 enhancements)
1.01 end/sec
11.06 dam/end (20% increase from 2 enhancements)

******

1 Recharge enhancement (33%) 6.77 seconds

50 hits
5000 damage
669.92 seconds
900 endurance

7.46 dam/sec (33% increase from 0 enhancements)
1.34 end/sec (33% increase from 0 enhancements - in this case, that's a bad thing)
5.56 dam/end

******

2 Recharge enhancements (66%) 5.42 seconds

50 hits
5000 damage
536.75 seconds
900 endurance

9.32 dam/sec (25% increase from 1 enhancement)
1.68 end/sec (25% increase from 0 enhancements - in this case, that's a bad thing)
5.56 dam/end

******

3 Recharge enhancements (99%) 4.52 seconds

50 hits
5000 damage
447.74 seconds
900 endurance

11.17 dam/sec (20% increase from 2 enhancements)
2.01 end/sec (20% increase from 0 enhancements - in this case, that's a bad thing)
5.56 dam/end

******

1 Endurance enhancement (33%) 6.77 endurance

50 hits
5000 damage
891 seconds
676.69 endurance

5.61 dam/sec
0.76 end/sec (33% improvement from 0 enhancements)
7.39 dam/end (33% increase from 0 enhancements)

******

2 Endurance enhancements (66%) 5.42 endurance

50 hits
5000 damage
891 seconds
542.17 endurance

5.61 dam/sec
0.61 end/sec (25% improvement from 0 enhancements)
9.22 dam/end (25% increase from 1 enhancement)

******

3 Endurance enhancements (66%) 4.52 endurance

50 hits
5000 damage
891 seconds
452.26 endurance

5.61 dam/sec
0.51 end/sec (20% improvement from 0 enhancements)
11.06 dam/end (20% increase from 2 enhancements)

*****

1 Accuracy (33%) 1 Damage (33%) 1.33 accuracy, 133 damage

66.5 Hits
8844.5 Damage
891 seconds
900 endurance

9.93 dam/sec (33% increase over 1 Acc OR 1 Dam)
1.01 end/sec
9.83 dam/end (33% increase over 1 Acc OR 1 Dam)

*****

1 Acc, 1 Dam, 1 End, 1 Recharge - 1.33 Acc, 133 damage, 6.77 end, 6.77 seconds

66.5 hits
8844.5 Damage
669.92 seconds
676.69 endurance

13.02 dam/sec (33% increase over 1 Acc/1 Dam - 17% increase over 3 Acc, 3 Dam OR 3 Rec)
1.01 end/sec (33% loss over 1 Acc/1 Dam - 98% loss from 3 END - 99% improvement from 3 Rec)
13.07 dam/end (33% increase over 1 Acc/1 Dam - 18% increase over 3 Acc, 3 Dam, 3 End OR 3 Rec)

*****

1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 End, 1 Recharge - 1.33 Acc, 199 damage, 6.77 end, 6.77 seconds

66.5 hits
13233.5 Damage
669.92 seconds
676.69 endurance

19.75 dam/sec (52% increase over 1A/1D/1R/1E)
1.01 end/sec
19.56 dam/end (50% increase over 1A/1D/1R/1E)

*****

2 Acc, 2 Dam, 1 End, 1 Recharge - 1.66 Acc, 166 damage, 6.77 end, 6.77 seconds

83 hits
13778 Damage
669.92 seconds
676.69 endurance

20.57 dam/sec (58% increase over 1A/1D/1R/1E - 4% increase over 1A/3D/1R/1E)
1.01 end/sec
20.36 dam/end (56% increase over 1A/1D/1R/1E - 4% increase over 1A/3D/1R/1E)

****************************************

As you can see, each successive enhancement of the same type in the same power produces a smaller and smaller benefit, having a heavier impact on the stats of the power as a whole.

This is because the enhancements affect the base level, not the current level. As such, diminishing returns is inherent in the systems the devs have used.

It is likely that any multi-variable system will likewise have diminishing returns each time you alter one variable but not the others.

All Arcanaville is suggesting is a diminishing return situation that would allow 3 debuffer to be able to produce the 52.5% debuff mentioned before rather than the 27% debuff they would produce if using the purple patch is the primary means of increasing difficulty.

In addition, if you only debuffer, you would have 30% debuff under diminishing returns rather than 9% debuff under purple patch.

Granted, if it were normal, non diminishing and without the purple patch, the three debuffers would produce 90% debuff, however, the first two would produce 60% debuff and at that point, the enemy has already been placed at the minimum 5% debuff and 15% of the debuff is extra (only there in case of debuff resistance or higher than average defense)

So, with the diminishing returns you go from "two debuffers hit the minimum with 15% to spare" to "two debuffers hit the minimum with 0% to spare" if you use these bumbers.

With the purple patch, currently being used to produce difficulty, we go from "two debuffers hit the minimum with 15% to spare" to "FIVE debuffers hit the minimum with 0% to spare".

As such, a more moderate diminishing returns system would produce less extreme reductions in ability than the current purple patch usage.

This makes sense because the purple patch is a semi-punitive system of extreme diminishing returns designed to make sure people don't go taking on things that the intention of the content says is way too high for them to fight. It isn't meant to provide an enjoyable level of challenge, it is supposed to provide an aggravating, discouraging level of difficulty.

As such, the deliberate use of the purple patch to add difficulty to content seems a bit extreme.

**********************************

And this is the point that Arcanaville comes on to tell me that I screwed up my math somewhere.

I suspect most, but by no means all, and possibly not even half - depending on which way the all but inscrutable non-forumites lean, of course - of the players playing this game would quite likely anticipate the bolded parts of your statement to most accurately reflect the potentially unhappy situation, as suggested by historical review and regardless of any inherent refragability, should the previously postulated application of diminishing returns be applied to PVE.

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That doesn't work quite the same way. That's an example of resistance increasing as the character gets hit. I'm talking about a system where near misses and close hits are no longer an all or nothing chance to take or dodge damage, and the amount of damage received is directly based on the contest between attacker and target. Essentially, the ability to dodge 50% of an attack instead of 0 or 100% of it. The major difference between such a system and the mechanics in SR are that in this system increasing your accuracy directly increases your damage output even if you are at the "cap." In fact its designed to smudge the cap out and make it viable to have characters at or below the defense "soft cap" who still benefit, essentially smearing out the current "ideal" target value.

Specifically, what the intent of that sort of system is is to cut the combat mechs some slack. It's not surprising that the developers have trouble balancing encounters when every major boss has to be loaded with powers that can one or two shot a player but is operating on the assumption that most of those shots will miss. Allowing them to hit, but only partially, eases the burden of the soft cap and the impossible challenge of creating balanced high level encounters.

agreed, but mechanically, it's still another name for resistance

I've done similar in HERO system, buying a decent level of defense and then purchasing a force field defined as "parries and dodges" for a martial artist.

ideally, SR should have been built as a layered defense with moderate resist and heavy defense, pretty much the opposite of Invulnerability.

Where Invulnerability has defense described as tough hide, SR would have resistance described as last minute dodges.

Granted, a scrapper doesn't need as firm a defense as a tank, they don't need to slog or wade as much as skirmish and harass.

But, a Reflexes tanker built toward high defense and moderate resist would be interesting. Granted, that would look a lot like a Shield user.

In the same way that "subtraction" and "division" are just another name for resistance I suppose.

correct the mathematical formula might be a bit different, but essentially you have defense (which prevents an attack entirely) and resistance (which reduces damage)

a partial dodging mechanic is just one connected to the other.

Yes but Defense and Resistance are already connected to each other. The only difference in a partial dodge system is the only outcome from Defense is not 0% or 100%. Since you still have the ability to completely avoid an attack and hence any secondary effects, its not just another form of Resistance. That is unless we want to argue that Defense as it exists today is really just a form of Resistance that always resists exactly 0 or 100% damage and any attached effects.

No, what, I'm saying is that they don't need a new mechanic.

Place defense and resistance into the same power. That's a partial dodge mechanic. Which is why I said partial dodge mechanics would look a lot like a Shield Defense user

For instance, placing one power with about 20% defense and 20% resistance

Unless I misunderstand what you are saying, layered Resistance and Defense is not the same as a partial dodge. A character with 20% Resistance resists exactly 20% damage every time he or she gets hit, with no connection between damage and how badly the Defense roll was failed.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying someone needs to build this new mechanic. At least I am not advocating any specific course of action for this game. I'm just saying that talk of balancing buffs or debuffs or anything else is unlikely to come to much when defense mechanics on the player's side of the coin ultimately boil down to Save Versus Death Ray.