The Impossible Mr. Trapdoor and Issue 19's New Theme

You might note that I did not rebut anyone that said "I've succeeded at the ITF with blah blah blah" (except the first guy that mentioned Masterminds, specifically because said MM was /Dark). I rebutted the guy that said "The only time I've seen failure was because of bad teams/bad players". The term "bad player" states, outright, that the player in question does not play well, and thus should learn to play to stop being a bad player. And I only rebutted him to point out that his excuse for failure was "learn to play".

Therefore, I must assume that either I am being flagged as the bad player (something I doubt, as I not only solo AVs, but have, with various characters, completed every high-level TF in the game except for Statesman and Khan, largely due to the fact that I have only one level 50 Hero and four level 50 villains) or the people I team with are being flagged as bad players (half true, perhaps; several of them are pretty much pure RPers and don't really focus on mechanics).

There are no other options here. It's one or the other.

They need to learn to play.

Props for owning up to it.

"Learn to play" is a phrase typified by an attitude wherein the speaker simply says that phrase and then dismisses the person they're talking to and goes off to do whatever with no further particular discussion.

The offer someone made to you to come and do ITF with them was not an example of "learn to play" as it came with the offer to basically "come see how I do it."

The statement the other player made that the only problems he had faced came from bad players or leaders was made specifically regarding his experience, not yours. This is also not the "learn to play" attitude.

However, you have said that you find ITF difficult while the rest of us have said we have had no problem with it.

This implies that there is something about ITF which you are having troubles with. Which means that there is likely something that others among us know that you may not. This is not "learn to play".

Likewise, you have said you can solo AVs, I can't. I do not feel that you are telling me that I need to learn to play for that difference in ability. You can do that, I can't, this is immaterial. I still have fun with the game and do not particularly need to learn anything. I may want to learn how to spec my characters better. Better learning to reach higher levels of talent is not "learn to play" either.

There has been almost no "learn to play" attitude in any of these posts. We are saying that there are techniques available to make ITF easy with or without MMs or Dark Miasma. That is not "learn to play" because inability to do one segment of content does not effect one's ability to play the game, just that one segment.

What it does mean is that if you wish to have an easier time with that TF then, yes, you will need to keep an open mind and look to see what other people are doing that is different from you.

This is not asking you to "learn to play" either. There is no disrespect, no sneering and no mocking. It is merely a statement of fact.

You have admittedly stated difficulty with this TF, help has been offered for how to address it. You responded to such offers with rudeness, or at least perceived rudeness.

You did not ask for help, fine, but the help is not being forced on you, it is possible to respond to it without snapping or appearing to snap. Ideally, this would involve stating your position clearly and politely. Ideally it would never involve the phrase "shut up" even as a joke.

Yes, it is difficult to accurately gauge a person's intent via the written word due to the lack of a tone of voice or body language. This is why it is important to spend a greater time explaining yourself than you would were you face to face.

A rule when writing anything is to assume the person who is to be your audience knows nothing of what you are about to say. This is because you cannot be present to correct yourself or explain a point should you overlook something.

If you were not intending to be rude, you failed to convey that. Granted, the rudeness is perceived and opinion, not something that can be easily confirmed. However, do note that several people, myself included, assumed that you were making an effort to find offense in anything said.

If this is in err, then you are "writing clearly enough to be understood" but you are not "writing clearly enough that you cannot be misunderstood".

I would agree *IF* you're talking about 'Master' attempts.
Otherwise, everyone just brings whatever they feel like.


To me, using that kind of stuff is just wasting it on those task forces. They just aren't that hard.


Again, I'd agree a mind dom is important *IF* it's a 'Master' attempt. Otherwise, just run in and hit things. Did this SF just the other night. We tried for the Master badge, but failed. Simply completing the SF wasn't hard at all. And we obviously did it without any temp powers since it was a Master attempt.


Well, that's total nonsense. Your experience is whatever it is. Dark Miasma being required for any TF is absurd.

Just like saying emp is required for an STF. My coalition makes a point to NEVER run with emps if we can help it, just to prove the point.


.... crap, I'm elitist.

It's true. Many people need to learn to play. At some point, I needed to learn to play; thus, I did, and still am, for that matter. My first Apex on Test was awful... musta died 50ish times (literally).

Second one? 42 minutes, I didn't die once.


I L'd2P.



Edit: I'm not asking people to have the same learning curve as me... just that they have one.

What I actually said was that I had not beaten it without playing one of my own Dark Miasma characters, and that my experience belied the claim that the ITF was "easy now that everyone's figured it out".

Okay then, maybe it's more accurate to say "many people have figured it out." That better?
None of what you seem to think is necessary is other than doing the TF often enough to get an understanding of what works and a feeling for which approach to use for any given run. Now the way i learned that was by teaming with people who had already figured it out. i'm not especially gifted with knowing the numbers, especially on the fly, but i can easily observe what works, deduce why it works, and then try it out for myself. Joining both good and bad teams running TFs helps me to understand it even better. It's mostly a matter of observation and learning from the mistakes of myself and others. (Also paying attention to the successes.) Not rocket surgery, just patience and an interest in learning. (i suppose a small amount of brain science isn't a bad thing, though.)

No, it would take a majority making the same statement to make the claim that it is easy seem like a lie.

You are giving anecdotal evidence, as are most of us. However, when comparing anecdotal evidence, the validity of conflicting statement is most supported by the quantity and quality of the statements.

You have stated that you need Dark Miasma to do ITF and that you couldn't do it with a mastermind on the party.

You are one person, most other responses have been that they did not require any particular party build for an ITF and several people have specifically mentioned playing MM on ITF with no problem. In fact one person has stated that they played an all-MM party.

If you are saying that you need something that the rest of us do not, then you comparatively have difficulty with the ITF.

This is the same as the fact that I have difficulty with AVs as compared to you.

The standard is not to the individual, but to the group.

Most of those making a statement on this subject matter have stated that they have not particularly had trouble with ITF on any particular build. That means the standard, at least in this group, is that the ITF is easy and does not require specific builds.

You do not meet that standard. You require Dark Miasma. You require a lack of MMs. Therefore, it is difficult to you.

Now, I have stated I cannot solo AVs, you have stated that you can. That's a 1 to 1 sampling and not enough to set a standard and therefore not enough to tell which of us is above the standard and which below, though it is immediately clear that I am less capable in that regard than you.

As such, it is clear that there is more that I could do to become more capable.

But it is not needed. I fulfill my role in taking on AVs in groups even if I cannot solo them. There is no need for me to solo AVs since there is no need for me to face AVs outside of a group.

Again, you have not called me out to "Learn to Play".

By the same regard, you cannnot perform the ITF without Dark Miasma by your own statement.

It is clear there is something you can do to perform better in this regard.

But it is not needed. There is no need for you to ever play ITF without a Dark Miasma. You can always choose to recruit one and you can always choose not to recruit masterminds. The game does not become unplayable simply because there are people better at ITF than you.

This is not a case where either party is calling out "Learn to Play."

And, actually, that misreading has become the subject. Which you have either not noticed in favor of defending the play ability which I am not attacking, or else you have deliberately ignored in favor of directing the conversation toward mechanics rather than an attempt to clear the air about the fact that nobody has adopted a "learn to play" attitude and that you have been acting fairly rude in early posts.

At least in perception.

The last few posts have had no real sign of rudeness which leads me to believe that the rudeness in the earlier posts was more defensive in nature and unintentional.

The primarily discussed segment of the initiating post:

It'll be easy for you once you figure it out too

My dark corruptors have all the tools they need to tank for pugs at level 10, powers like Fearsome Stare and Dark Servant are just icing on the cake. I can get invited to a PUG where half the team is heading back to the mission door from the hospital and the other half is inside the mission saying buy wakies. I know with my dark I can turn that trainwreck of a team around starting with the first mob we run into. Not to say Traps can't save a doomed pug, but that requires getting control of the tempo of the team.

Before SOs what awesome power in Traps is recharging in less then a minute? Twilight Grasp and Darkest Night recharge in 10s. No matter how fast the team is you join, they could be slogging through spawns at a snails pace or burning 8 man spawns so fast Force Field Generator doesn't even have the chance to catch up, Dark is always going to have a power recharged that can help feel usful. The biggest downside to Traps is that the faster the teams going, the less a trapper can contribute.

Look at Task Forces, people want to just race through as fast as possible, fighting nothing but even con mobs. They just want to charge every mob and move on. My dark can manage to stay close to the front of the pack and alternate Holwing Twilight and Fearsome Stare and manage every alpha, handling the majority of the aggro and mitigate large amounts of damage. Traps ends up jumping into every other spawn with nothing but Webnade recharged.

My goal isn't to knock traps, but it's a distance third and tied with some other set for best (de)buff powerset. Rad and Dark never end up feeling like dead weight on a team. Put Rad or Dark in the hands of a button masher or a rookie, your team is going to get some pretty good results out of the player. Both sets have a nice buffer of idiot proof built into them. Traps can't make that claim. Comparing how a powerset handles in the hands of a bad player might not be far to you, but I've pugged with bad trappers and bad Darks. A bad dark is an adequate teammate a bad trapper is just dead weight. No matter how awesome a set can be in a skilled players hands, its not going to be any awesomer then Rad or Dark in a skilled players hands. All sets are tied in that hypothetical situation. Out in Paragon City where everybody is average, Traps is getting outshined by Dark and Rad big time.

The second worst thing about Traps, your last three power picks are borderline worthless on teams. If Seeker Drones would detonate a little quicker when you cast them in a mob, maybe I would move it off that list. Its 2 seconds to cast and then takes that long for them to explode. Powers that require the team to stop and wait don't make good team powers. Having to level a set up through the upper 2Os and 30s and not having any powers to look forward too is lame. Traps must be the only powerset that gives you that "there's nothing to look forward too for 15 levels" feeling.

The third worst thing about traps I can't use jump to get around getting rooted. The only power Dark has the forces me to root in place is Shadow Fall. Ever other animation in Dark and Rad will play out during your jump. 4 or 5 powers in Traps require you to stand still and not be flying to use them. Maybe you don't think mobility is a big deal when comparing powersets to you, but being able to cheat the root system in this game allows Darks and Rads to use any power safely from behind a corner. And luckily this game is nothing but instanced maps of warehouses, labs and office buildings which come with a variety of corners to choose from.

So in closing Traps is awesome and I love my Dark/Traps but traps suffers from "the dead weight, no cool powers left, can't jump, rad and dark are better, too damn slow, can everyone slow down" syndrome. With the Star system, where you rate other players, I've used the term awesome rad or awesome dark numerous times but I've never went out of my way to use the term awesome trapper in any player notes.

All IMHO of course.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

And thus, not worth paying attention to? Or just repeatedly advising them to use the same tactics the other 99 out of 100 players did, in the hope that it will fix the 'operator error?'

Perhaps there is a physical handicap for why they can't manage it. There are severely disabled people that play MMOs or other games, and they would love the option of an 'uber-easy' mode. Too often, the gamer reply is, "Hey, I can do it, why can't you? I don't need the uber-easy mode, we don't need it in-game, period."

I wasn't one of those who got sick with the sonic powerset effects. I don't see why people have to jump down the throats of others, going, lol, I'm ok, live with it.

Or even if they have no physical handicap, but choose not to, for various gameplay/immersion/personal reasons. Doesn't mean that their opinions and options have to be dismissed out of hand. ("Incarnate System is for folks who can be hardcore enough. Don't like it? Don't participate in it" is the feeling I'm getting out of the devs' game design and some of the community.)

But it doesn't have to be that way. We want CoH to have lots of subscribers, of all different gameplay styles, all accepted for how they like to play. Or at least, I do. There are things that can be done to promote this sort of inclusive feeling.

For example, as suggested earlier in the thread, making some solo or easier Incarnate story narratives that aren't TF only.

Or simply, in every Issue update, to remember to include and hype some content for soloists, as well as the latest 'raid'/Incarnate system update. I notice LOTRO does this quite a lot - in their effort to support a diverse, story-focused community but still keep hardcore raiders, soloist explorers and staunch roleplayers in the population, they try and do a little something for everyone each update.

Or not placing an artificial level-shift THAT painful so that one or two people minus the alpha slot can still be 'carried' through it. That will give them a chance to see what they're missing, and perhaps be inspired and taught to improve further. How in the world can we encourage people to alpha slot if their only encounter with it is "Oh sorry, you don't have the alpha slot, we can't take you on this TF?" For some kinds of folks, that sort of reception can get very discouraging and stop them from interacting with the main community.

The very reason CoH has successful inclusive PUG teaming is less reliance on holy trinity, one person's failure not equaling to automatic team wipe, 8 member teams meaning one or two (or three or four) can be not so good players and still succeed at the mission. Seems a shame to wipe that out so quickly with the Incarnate System. For content that requires all 7 slots alpha to omega, then ok, perhaps that's acceptable, but we have to be careful not to be like WoW and lock all important story narratives/conclusions away from people who don't raid (or Incarnate).

The alpha slot is only the beginning. Did we have to artificially gate content THAT fast and that rigidly?

I will agree that a bad trapper is probably the worst kind of 'bad' debuff set you could possibly have, but a good (and i mean really good) trapper is the kind that can get around the weakness of the set. For example, there is little reason to summon seeker drones next to you and then rush into a group, when you can just summon the drones inside the group, let them soak the alpha, and then explode in a debuff. If your drones lead the fray, then noone gets hit by the alpha, and the enemys are either hit with a -damage/-tohit debuff, blinded, or stunned (or sometimes all three)

Do you play on liberty? If you don't maybe I can run a mish or two with you over test, and show you how my actually play /traps. I don't mean to sound elitist, but I play traps a lot differently then how most people are used to them being played, and I've gotten quite a few people to change their minds about how traps performs.

But enough derailment, if you want to set something up, send me a PM and we'll talk more in private

The Surgeons act differently from the rest of the traitors; that's why you can pick them out. Even their 'idle' animations are different from the combatants'.

It's true. The Surgeons dance like Lady Gaga while the rest of the Cimerorans do the Cabbage Patch.

Yeah, if you're running with "pure RPers" or people who are for whatever reason not the greatest at the killing stuff aspect of the game it could very well be that you can only succeed if you bring a character who can carry the team.

You can't join my Manticore TF unless you're level 30. You can't join my ITF unless you have the Midnighter badge. Artificial barriers to entry are nothing new to this game.

I'm curious what these were. Other than the big red message about him bifurcating, I must have missed all these hints and clues. I just fought him for the first time a couple of days ago, so I guess that's the new version? I don't know what he used to be like. I started out going toe-to-toe with him, but I don't think I ever could have overcome his regen with my katana scrapper. After a while I noticed one of his clones, so I ran over and defeated it. I looked around and there were about a dozen of them scattered around, so I defeated all of them. Then I went back to fighting Trapdoor, and this time I was wearing him down pretty well. When I saw the bifurcated message again, I knocked him backwards into some lava, just for the fun of it, then ran off and defeated his clone. Then I came back and finished him off.

It wasn't terribly hard, all in all, but it sounds like I might have just stumbled onto a good strategy by accident. And of course my kat/regen scrapper is the best soloer I have.

In general I'm not really fond of increasing challenge levels. It's just not as much fun for me, personally. But if they are going to have a high level of challenge somewhere in the game, the incarnate system feels like an appropriate place for it.

Not to mention the occasional big green glow from Healing Aura.

While I could be wrong, I suspect that the sort that aren't the greatest at the "killing stuff" aspect of the game are a much larger component of the player base than the forums generally admit (which is ironic, really, because an awful lot of traffic here is based off mocking them and commiserating over having to deal with them).