How do you feel about the Incarnate System?
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2010-12-04 05:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yes, I can. It would be convenient, certainly, but not particularly interesting--it would be more of the same, when we could instead have semi-custom nukes, pets, universal procs, or any number of other things that would increase our effectiveness as much, but in different ways.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
The chances are each new slot will have it's own unigue power enhancers but even if a few were just copies of some of the Alpha slot abilities can you REALLY say being able to enhance every attack you have so it does 45% more damage, uses 45% less end, recharges 45% faster and is 45% more accurate is boring?
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Like I said, I'm enjoying the current Incarnate stuff, and I like what the Alpha slot is doing for my characters. I definitely want variety, though.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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You're not alone. Something does seem peculiar about shard drops while soloing. For example, I can point to more than one person running several missions solo at x5 and not getting a single shard, but then running with one other person vs. less mobs and getting a few shards out of it.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
The drop rate may be the same, but when I count the amount of enemies I defeated solo since I19 and get no drops, and compare that to the three I got on an ITF something doesn't seem right.
I haven't been reading the forums lately so I'll assume my experiences are unique, if not I'll be willing to help out with chat logs. |
May just be a fickle RNG, but that there's really fickle. I think it's worth looking into, given past issues with droprates.
For now, if you're after shards, I'd suggest at least duoing, just to be safe.
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Re: Incarnate System
It seems okay so far, but I'm still worried.
I'd say the droprate feels just about right (as long as I'm teamed).
I don't like the introduction arc. Pacing felt off and, when contrasted against the Praetorian content and tip missions, it seemed kinda pedestrian. Given its purpose, I'm of the mind that it really shouldn't feel like the same ol' same old at all, but it very much did to me.
I've been given the impression that the arc was sort of a rush job, so some slack can be cut there, but I think it needs to be revisited and spruced up relatively soon. More Trapdoor (interesting encounter, could be designed better), less Minos (stock encounter and, considering what preceded it, ill-fitting as a finale).
I think it did succeed in making plausible a sudden upswing of "Long-Path" Incarnates.
I agree that unlocking the slot came off as a bit anticlimactic. I'd like to see something put in that more overtly marks the occasion. Could be anything, really. A temp power... a funky inspiration... but something. Were it up to me, I'd try to make it something fun but largely useless. A special Incarnate costume change emote, maybe?
As for the future... I don't know. I'm afraid that, if this system demands a large time investment, I'm going to fall way behind. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing... unless a huge power gap develops between the Haves and the Have Nots. That could be problematic.
This is a game that emphasizes and promotes having alts. The Incarnate system isn't quite running counter to that... yet. But I can easily see where it would, and that worries me.
However, there isn't enough information for me to really form an opinion either way. I've been playing this game consistently for over 6 years and, in that time, I've seen the dev team do things that I've found to be completely kookoo-nuts-out-of-touch. On the other hand, I've also seen them implement things that I considered brilliant.
It's been a mixed bag lately so, for now, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.
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Well yes all those would be fantastic Balanced but I think you may, or may not, be doing what some others are and confusung the Alpha slot with a new power. Its not a power its like adding a 7th enhancement slot to ones that already exist and enhancing even more. Take my Crab Spider.. She gets a 33% End reduction to any power that will accept End Reducers normally and a 20% addition to the ones that enhance her damage resistance. So even on attacks, etc, that I never bothered to use an end reduction enhancer on before I now get a 33% reduction and on ones that I did add a reducer to it adds even more. One of the posts that Flarstuk had seemed to indicate the same thing. He was disappointed because he'd opened the slot but with no enhancer in it .. he didn't perform any better than before. He referenced Quick Recovery and the fact that once you obtain that POWER even with nothing in the slot it still boosts your ability to recover end. I'm not sure how the other 8 slots we've been promised will work but the Alpha is not a power its like going from Level 20 to level 21 and now being able to add more slots to the power you selected at 20. Until you add those slots and then go buy or craft enhancements to put in them the empty slots are not helping one bit. |
Originally Posted by Balanced
Yes, I can. It would be convenient, certainly, but not particularly interesting--it would be more of the same, when we could instead have semi-custom nukes, pets, universal procs, or any number of other things that would increase our effectiveness as much, but in different ways.
Like I said, I'm enjoying the current Incarnate stuff, and I like what the Alpha slot is doing for my characters. I definitely want variety, though. |
Now if they do come up with future slots that act like additional powers it would be great. Like you mentioned an added Nuke, extra pet or whatever would be really nice but I would imagine they will just find different powers to enhance like they have done with the Alpha. Maybe future slots will do things like some of the rare or Uncomon IOs do now.. 25% more accuracy, 25 percent less end and 15% more range.. things like that. We could see one that centers solely on travel powers increasing flight speed, run speed, jump heights, teleport distances etc.. and then add reductions in end cost or increases in recharge times. Its hard to guess what they have planned but if the Alpha enhancemenets are any indication it should be a lot of fun.
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Although it turns off if you exemplar below 45 - so unless anyone is planning on only ever running 45+ content on their 50, they still need to give some though to Alpha-less slotting.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Incidentally, folks have been saying that with Inherent Fitness, they could use some extra slots. The Alpha Slot is some extra slots. Specifically, it's 31 extra slots - more if you're a Kheld.
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@Golden Girl
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I know quite well what the Alpha slot is and does--in fact, I'm using Cardiacs on my main like you are, and getting much the same result. |
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Well yes all those would be fantastic Balanced but I think you may, or may not, be doing what some others are and confusung the Alpha slot with a new power...
Now if they do come up with future slots that act like additional powers it would be great. Like you mentioned an added Nuke, extra pet or whatever would be really nice but I would imagine they will just find different powers to enhance like they have done with the Alpha. |
The examples I gave were actually based on things we have seen (via leaks) for other Incarnate slots. I've seen the in-game info for several Judgement powers, for example. Those are the ones we know the most about, and at the time, they were essentially nukes--GR site says it "Grants new upgradeable area of effect (AOE) powers." They are, of course, subject to change, but the fact that the devs have said the first ten slots are "designed" (though not necessarily implemented) suggests that at least the types of powers they will grant are fairly well established.
Now, that doesn't mean they can't include slots that provide general buffs--I just think that if they do, they will work differently from the Alpha slot. My personal and completely unfounded speculation on the Vitae slot is that it will alter base stats, AT multipliers, or both. That could provide many of the same advantages you're talking about, but in a different way, with different implications. It would be distinctive, and thereby more interesting than just another Alpha slot.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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I must disagree with your reply. I think you can add great things to the game and make them a lot of fun. They can be different to a slight degree. |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I honestly think that if this is really how you feel about things, that there isn't much that the devs can realisticly do to make the game feel 'fresh' to you again.
As you said, the game is 7 years old, it is what it is. You can't expect drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay at this point. |
Using unique maps for missions would be great. I know this is difficult due to the amount of work required but I would rather have less stuff in an issue if that meant each issue was going to provide some unique stuff.
I also think the TFs/SFs could be so much better. The best one is, IMO, the ITF. Follow that formula for future TFs. Again, more work but so much more enjoyable. I run the ITF more than all the other TFs...it's not even close.
It is very easy to add new superhero-like characters. Stop making the new characters just alternates of what we have. Be original. Feature them. When I collected comics, one of the coolest things was to see that wild new looking enemy super(s).
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What does it have to do with "End Game", seems like a new beginning to me for our level 50 characters. But I agree with you in that I don't like games where the "End Game" is what you shoot for. It's the journey to max level, not the arrival, that I enjoy. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
One of the things I've always liked about CoH is that it wasn't an "end game" MMO, so I honestly can't say I'm happy to see us getting an end game.
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I see the Incarnate system as new content for our level 50 characters. And here I am now playing some characters I haven't playing in years and having a ball. Doesn't feel like any kind of End Game at all.
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I feel that everything you just mentioned is exactly what the devs have been giving us since GR and I18.|
Originally Posted by TheJazMan
I must disagree with your reply. I think you can add great things to the game and make them a lot of fun. They can be different to a slight degree.
Using unique maps for missions would be great. I know this is difficult due to the amount of work required but I would rather have less stuff in an issue if that meant each issue was going to provide some unique stuff. I also think the TFs/SFs could be so much better. The best one is, IMO, the ITF. Follow that formula for future TFs. Again, more work but so much more enjoyable. I run the ITF more than all the other TFs...it's not even close. It is very easy to add new superhero-like characters. Stop making the new characters just alternates of what we have. Be original. Feature them. When I collected comics, one of the coolest things was to see that wild new looking enemy super(s). |
Praetoria has some unique missions with new mechanics and decent story telling.
The morality and alignment missions are all unique and a vast improvement over radios and papers.
Did you try the new lvl 20-30 arcs yet? They just might be the best thing in Issue 19, heh.
And both of the new TFs have some cool new things as well. But more importantly, they're relatively short, fastpaced and challenging. ATF has replaced ITF as my new favourite TF in the game. A lot of the older TFs are unnecessarily long. The second mission of the ITF is a good example of this and, well, the whole of LGTF. I'm not even mentioning the really old Freedom Phalanx stuff.
That's why I said that if you expect a lot more than what we've currently been getting, I believe that you're going to stay dissapointed.
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Having an End Game and being an "End Game" type of game, are two very different types of things. The only type way this game would become the latter is if the devs decide to only develop content for it and disregard developing as much content for lower levels, as well as balancing the game around it like other games do, instead of across all level ranges.|
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
What does it have to do with "End Game", seems like a new beginning to me for our level 50 characters. But I agree with you in that I don't like games where the "End Game" is what you shoot for. It's the journey to max level, not the arrival, that I enjoy.
I see the Incarnate system as new content for our level 50 characters. And here I am now playing some characters I haven't playing in years and having a ball. Doesn't feel like any kind of End Game at all. |
Considering that the devs in this very issue have developed alot of content for lower level content along with the end game incarnate stuff, I don't have any worries.
Edit: and yes this issue has breathed alot of life in my other level 50 alts, and I love the changes in attitudes for running TFs/SFs, I have seen fewer and fewer speed runs TFs.
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I agree with Indiramourning 100%. I think Positron only referred to the Incarnate system as "END GAME" content because they have no intention of raising the level above 50 so in a sense its stuff you do at game's end. Your as high in level as you can ever become but who says that means your life as a hero or villain is over? |
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
What does it have to do with "End Game", seems like a new beginning to me for our level 50 characters. But I agree with you in that I don't like games where the "End Game" is what you shoot for. It's the journey to max level, not the arrival, that I enjoy.
I see the Incarnate system as new content for our level 50 characters. And here I am now playing some characters I haven't playing in years and having a ball. Doesn't feel like any kind of End Game at all. |
Heck the incarnate system alone, not even mentioning to 2 new Task Forces and a hinted at promise of more to come, will keep a 50 level busy for quite a while. We have the first of 10 total new power options to play with and not even all of that yet. I am totally enjoying playing my 50s again and look forward to see just how powerful they can become in the future as more and more of the incarnate slots open to us.
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The more I play around with this, the more the same recurring problem keeps popping up: The Incarnate system consists of five minutes of joy and glee followed by hours of what seems like wasted effort. I play and I play, I kill and I kill, and at the end of the day, I have zilch to show for it, making that entire day's work a waste because it didn't contribute anything. It's not like I can run out of bad luck so that I KNOW I'll get better drops tomorrow.
The randomness of the Shard drops together with the large chunks the system is broken down into means that there is no slow progress with this thing. Either you're making a lot of progress in large steps, or you're making NO progress at all. Experience grind never felt this demoralising for one simple fact - anything I did, no matter how small, no matter how insignificant, no matter how puny, contributed to my experience. Maybe very little experience, but there was, in fact, forward motion. By contrast, most of what I do to get Incarnate shards presents no motion at all. I'm just spinning my wheels in place until the system decides to take pity on me and move me a step forward, whereupon I start spinning my wheels in a different place.
And this isn't really a question of how long it takes to actually get an Incarnate boost. I can deal with slow, as long as it doesn't feel like my time is going down the drain. I'll continue saying this: Upping the drop rate and the costs proportionately would create a system that's far more motivating. Different people have suggested different numbers, but I'll pick 10. Ten times the drop rate with ten times the cost should equal about the same time commitment, but with more signs of progress and less time wasted getting bad rolls. In short, less frustrating.
Just as an example, I ran an entire outdoor instance - the Talos Island one - set to include bosses and set for two, without getting a single shard. Now, people will take one look at the drop rates and go "Well of course! That's to be expected with these chances." Well, yeah, I guess it's working as intended, but I just don't like a system which expects me to put in so much effort for absolutely nothing. Again - NOT receiving a shard from a thousand enemies does not make receiving a shard from enemy number 1001 any more likely, which is the root of the problem.
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Beyond that, I actually liked the Ramiel arc, and did not find it very difficult, at least now that I know the tricks. It's somewhat disappointing that the tricks to beating both "difficult" missions revolve around sidestepping the difficulty entirely, making one question what the point was in including it other than to act as a sucker trap, but that's besides the point. The story was decent and more than grand enough, the fights were doable and it rewards a Shard 
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam has crystallized the inherent problem with the drop system, one I've been talking about in both the Merit and IO threads. For Merits and Shards, at least, why not just give us a standard single reward for completing a mission. That way at least we know we'll get something. Random rolls suck, period. They make me hate games.
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Here's this recurring problem again, and I'll explain how it relates to the rest of the game.
Once again, I completed a really, really large outdoor instance. It's one of the oldest city maps, the one with the multi-storey parking garage. This map is huge, it has many enemies on it, and it takes quite a while to beat. Even with the new-found power of Stamina meaning I never have to rest for anything ever, this map still takes a while to clear of any and all enemies, just because it's so large.
When I looked at my Shard counter at the end of that map, I had gotten precisely ZILCH. Now, again, this may be working as intended, but I don't like how this works. When it comes to regular levels, if I clear this map of enemies, then oh boy! I get a large, large chunk of experience! Sure, it's not a whole level, but it's usually at least a full bar, if not more. Not only have I gotten "something," I've gotten quite a lot. Granted, Shards are indeed rare, but going through this entire mission, all these I don't know how many foes, and coming up empty-handed?
When this mission ended, I realised that I may as well not have even started it, because it did not move me even one step closer to my prize. I had, in fact, accomplished precisely nothing for all that time and effort put into the mission. And that just... Bugs me.
I don't mind the speed of progress, really. If it takes days, weeks, months or whatever, then that's just how long it takes. What I do mind is that, for the most part, I feel like I'm not making any progress whatsoever, and THAT is easily the most demoralising aspect of the entire system.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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random rolls are awesome, period. they keep me playing this game.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Random rolls suck, period. They make me hate games.
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the more deterministic they make things in an effort to placate those who dislike uncertainty, the less happy I am. Merits, tickets, Amerits, drop balancing....the post-market history is a history of caving in to determinists.
Here's hoping this one time they ignore complaints and leave the system as is.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
random rolls are awesome, period. they keep me playing this game.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
"Momma always said, stupid is as stupid does." -- Forrest Gump
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Gratz!
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
Score for the Goat.
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I'll say the obvious since no one has yet. I actually have fun playing the game. Not counting my spoils at the end of the day. When did CoX suddenly become an "it's all about the loot" game?
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Sam has crystallized the inherent problem with the drop system, one I've been talking about in both the Merit and IO threads. For Merits and Shards, at least, why not just give us a standard single reward for completing a mission. That way at least we know we'll get something. Random rolls suck, period. They make me hate games.
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When the market and gold farmers showed up?|
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
I'll say the obvious since no one has yet. I actually have fun playing the game. Not counting my spoils at the end of the day. When did CoX suddenly become an "it's all about the loot" game?
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I don't think earning a little something towards the Incarnate stuff on a per mission (or heck, even per story arc) basis is over-the-top loot-driven behavior. Just asking for a little sumpin-sumpin for the effort, you know?
The reason my 50s are retired for the most part is because there's nothing much for them to do aside from getting badges. The Incarnate system is the perfect incentive to shake off the mothballs, but if it's a horrendous slog to acquire the shards by playing the game regularly then I'm just going to switch to one of my 100+ alts. Several hundreds of hours with my AR Blaster is enough. Now I want to play my MM and my Dark Scrapper and my Dual Blades Brute and....
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I have fun playing the game, too. I have more fun playing the game AND EARNING REWARDS. It's not complicated. If I have a choice between a character I like and a character I like who can make progress, I'll pick the one who can make progress every time.
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Originally Posted by Indiramourning
I'll say the obvious since no one has yet. I actually have fun playing the game. Not counting my spoils at the end of the day. When did CoX suddenly become an "it's all about the loot" game?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Dear Wicked Wendy,
I was replying to the concern that someone expressed as few posts above mine that the "naked alpha slot" should provide some kind of benefit. After all, we have been exposed to the Well, albeit indirectly. My suggestion for a solution to their concern was to say that maybe the exposure to the Well (the slot) could grant a tiny amount of ... something. Nothing that would make a tremendous difference, and something you'd still want to replace. But it would give something.
That was all.
I've already earned two of the uncommon boosts and I am not complaining about the system. Again, I was offering an idea to address a concern that was not my own.
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