Internet Drama and You (A guide for RPers and Non-RPers alike)
By
Ashcraft,
Posted on: 2010-11-23 21:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
That is priceless...
Loved it...
I know many people who just HAVE to read this!
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
I understand what this old, old, OLD article is trying to come across, and I appreciate the effort. However, at the risk of provoking irony, I have to say that its insultingly patronising tone does more to instigate Internet drama than it does to quell it, falling into its own trap in a roundabout way.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I understand what this old, old, OLD article is trying to come across, and I appreciate the effort. However, at the risk of provoking irony, I have to say that its insultingly patronising tone does more to instigate Internet drama than it does to quell it, falling into its own trap in a roundabout way.
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I actually agree with you to an extent.
I think people (or at least, I) get emotional about things they put energy into. Playing an online game is not flippantly dismissable as a "happy fun time," it's a shared experience with other people, for all the good and bad that that implies. While the article has good intentions I find it insists too strongly that a virtual place is manifestly different from being in a physical one.
For example, I go out to dance clubs and theme parks with intent of having a good time. There is often no physical "take home" from these activities, but frustrations and conflicts can still occur. The conflict isn't less real because it happened in a fun place. Perspective and self control are important, of course. But it's also important to realize that except for the fact that internet games are digitized they are not terribly different than other kinds of social activity.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the article. It does make a few good points, but I do believe the level of sarcasm undoes a lot of what it's trying to accomplish.
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That's kind of where I stand. It always bothers me when people diminish the importance of online interaction in the "lighten up Francis" fashion. Yes, online games are effectively incorporeal, but then so are books, movies and actual party games. Yes, you don't have a physical pen and physical paper, but that's not what makes the game. It's the interaction between players and the enjoyment these players experience that makes the game fun.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think people (or at least, I) get emotional about things they put energy into. Playing an online game is not flippantly dismissable as a "happy fun time," it's a shared experience with other people, for all the good and bad that that implies. While the article has good intentions I find it insists too strongly that a virtual place is manifestly different from being in a physical one.
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Very often, the cause of Internet Drama is neither the Internet nor the game. It's other people. I've said it before and I'll say it again - far more than any change or system that this game has ever seen, what has BY FAR ruined my fun the most has been other people, be they here on the forums or in the game itself.
"Critics" often try to paint how petty it is to argue about whether Longbow is really evil or whether make-pretend rain is that important or any other such aspect, and they're right. But Internet Drama is never "about" these things. It's about people. What irks people the most isn't the fact "someone on the Internet is wrong," but rather that someone's actually insulting your intelligence. This is not something unique to the Internet. This happens at work, on the bus, in the street, at clubs and so on and so forth. Just look at fooball violence. People kill each other over whose team is better, and football doesn't produce anything more real than a video game.
That's why I say the article is insulting and patronising. I appreciate the intent to get people to relax and breathe, but dismissing their interests as irrelevant and unimportant is practically the WORST way to go about doing this. Inter-personal problems aren't solved by ignoring them or pretending they're unimportant.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Pretendy fun time games, dammit!
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Geez, relax. Why do you get so bent out of shape over words on the Interwebs?
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Originally Posted by Scooby_Dont
Pretendy fun time games, dammit!
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Character index
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/Echo this.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think people (or at least, I) get emotional about things they put energy into. Playing an online game is not flippantly dismissable as a "happy fun time," it's a shared experience with other people, for all the good and bad that that implies. While the article has good intentions I find it insists too strongly that a virtual place is manifestly different from being in a physical one.
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I've invested time into my characters, but more than that, I've invested time into relationships with other real people. So I know them as @Joe instead of Joe Smith. Does that make him any less real?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Samuel and Oedipus, those are extremely insightful observations, and reflect exactly to a large extent how I feel. I was already formulating a response while reading the linked post, and when I came back and read your responses, I realized I didn't have to.
I've met people with apathy towards everything in life, especially their "pretendy fun time games." Those people are extraordinarily dull and, in general, I don't like them much. I'd much rather have people around that I have occasional squabbles with when it means that there are also people around that I talk to who are simply brilliant, people who become good long-time friends.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
""All things in moderation, including moderation." - Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." - Oscar Wilde
While I'm not advocating going out there and being sociopaths, I do think the guide has a lot of good wisdom for people that have found social troubles on the intertubes.
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A lot of the time, the people you squabble with and the people who become long time friends are the same people. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
I'd much rather have people around that I have occasional squabbles with when it means that there are also people around that I talk to who are simply brilliant, people who become good long-time friends.
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Myself and a good friend of mine argue incessantly, but we both know that disagreeing doesn't mean we dislike each other, and at the end of the day either one of us would take a bullet for the other.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
"We can have animus, and not be enemies" - Jon Stewart.
At some point, internet squabbles have taken on a Hatfield vs McCoy feud with them. Many times, when I disagree with someone and give an intelligent, and well thought out reason as to why I do not - I am suddenly the enemy. I know many, many people experience this. What do we do? Some of us just step back, and ignore the person when reason turns to emotional and rage-filled venom-spewing. Others spew venom right back. I am ashamed to say that sometimes I am part of the latter, especially when the debate is about something I find near and dear. Though more often than not the debate is completely ridiculous, yet people seem to go at each other like two wet cats in a duffle bag.
I suppose if not this guide, hopefully someone sometime in the future will write something a little more down to earth with a lot of the same points. Certainly, while people are a problem, there are several viable single player games to choose for our entertainment.
In the end, we're online because of the same reason we go to the pub. We want to hang out and relax, with other people, without a lot of the social hangups like spending hours to put on make up, picking the right outfit, et cetera. Just remember guys, most arguments aren't worth the effort. Just spend an hour in Virtue Atlas to figure that out.
Hmm. That post seems to be based on the premise that no one out there really enjoys getting into massive flaming fights on the internet, and if only they knew how to stop they'd never do it again. This does not match up very well with my experience.
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In my own opinion, for all those who did take offense to the article, I would have to say that maybe sarcasm *doesnt* sit well with some people here [1]. Although i *DO* think that parts of it are possibly outdated, the general premise behind it is correct...|
Originally Posted by Maiden Marionette
"We can have animus, and not be enemies" - Jon Stewart.
At some point, internet squabbles have taken on a Hatfield vs McCoy feud with them. Many times, when I disagree with someone and give an intelligent, and well thought out reason as to why I do not - I am suddenly the enemy. I know many, many people experience this. What do we do? Some of us just step back, and ignore the person when reason turns to emotional and rage-filled venom-spewing. Others spew venom right back. I am ashamed to say that sometimes I am part of the latter, especially when the debate is about something I find near and dear. Though more often than not the debate is completely ridiculous, yet people seem to go at each other like two wet cats in a duffle bag. I suppose if not this guide, hopefully someone sometime in the future will write something a little more down to earth with a lot of the same points. Certainly, while people are a problem, there are several viable single player games to choose for our entertainment. In the end, we're online because of the same reason we go to the pub. We want to hang out and relax, with other people, without a lot of the social hangups like spending hours to put on make up, picking the right outfit, et cetera. Just remember guys, most arguments aren't worth the effort. Just spend an hour in Virtue Atlas to figure that out. |
Why get all worked up over a computer game and just end up spending time throwing insults/vitriol/name calling from one to the other over the forums.
Granted I know that people can be passionate about the game, hell I have been passionate about it, and after a prolonged break from the game, I am back again... But even so, after 3 years out of the game, I *still* see the same style arguments happening, normally between the same people as years ago. And it just gets tiring seeing mud being thrown between 2 or more sides without a hose in sight to turn on the naughty puppies...
Post, sit back and enjoy the game...
well at least that is what I do... hell, I know I HAVE been guilty a few times of everything that the article mentions, and I still take find the article funny and non offensive....
To say "happy pretendy fun time games" has always struck me as more a justification for griefing and trolling than a good principle to live by.
"Dude, stop ganking me with your team backup! I get it, you win, so can you please stop?"
"HAPPY PRETENDY FUN TIME GAMES!"
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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His example justified the phrase though for that particular situation. But yeah, it's not so "pretendy fun time games" with your example. It would be like being mad at the opposing team because you lost a Base Raid via Dimensional Anchors or Pylons.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
To say "happy pretendy fun time games" has always struck me as more a justification for griefing and trolling than a good principle to live by.
"Dude, stop ganking me with your team backup! I get it, you win, so can you please stop?" "HAPPY PRETENDY FUN TIME GAMES!" |
There used to be a poster here on this forum whose user picture referenced that ancient LJ post. I think his sig also had a direct link to it, but I don't remember too well now.
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As opposed to 'discussions' over games irl, like say soccer, were people get beaten to a pulp.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Why get all worked up over a computer game and just end up spending time throwing insults/vitriol/name calling from one to the other over the forums. |
games = games imo whether they happen on a pc, a cartbord board or a pitch.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Given the identity of the 'voice' of the article, I'd say that was probably intentional.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I understand what this old, old, OLD article is trying to come across, and I appreciate the effort. However, at the risk of provoking irony, I have to say that its insultingly patronizing tone does more to instigate Internet drama than it does to quell it, falling into its own trap in a roundabout way.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Yes, Philotic Knight/Westley had a link to it in his sig for a while. I've had that post bookmarked for years, and still go back to read it every few months.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
There used to be a poster here on this forum whose user picture referenced that ancient LJ post. I think his sig also had a direct link to it, but I don't remember too well now.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Smersh
To say "happy pretendy fun time games" has always struck me as more a justification for griefing and trolling than a good principle to live by.
"Dude, stop ganking me with your team backup! I get it, you win, so can you please stop?" "HAPPY PRETENDY FUN TIME GAMES!" |
This is actually a very good point. The "It's Just a Game" defense can be very frustrating. For a period of about a year I volunteered as a developer/support GameMaster for a text- based commercial MUD with a playerbase of around 3,000. The nature of that game allowed for much more pervasive harrassment than CoH does, including the ability to kill other players unprovoked (we had a "consent" policy in which you could attack only if involved in an actual escalating conflict, in order to balance realism with gameplay). I can't tell you how many times I had to consult with a player because s/he had, for example, decided to attack groups of others with no attempt to interact with them.
These players would typically defend themselves in one of two ways. One was "It's just a game so none of this matters." The other was, "I'm roleplaying a psychopath," which is another way of saying the prior; you were allowed to play a psychopath as long as the people you interacted with consented to that style of play.
Now, also because of those support sessions, I can say there is another group of players who take the game, far, far, far too seriously. People who, for example, where convinced that I as a GameMaster was out to personally persecute them, and in at least one case, someone who believed the GM team as a whole was trying to "rob her of the experience of being the number 1 healer in the game" (I cannot make this stuff up). In the case of the healer, through later interactions, I later came to believe this person was in true need of psychological help. In other cases I think people had just become extremely emotionally invested.
However it is my belief that none of this should discourage us from believing that online places are actual places. This extends beyond games and into social spheres like Facebook and MySpace. Social places have rules, expectations, and norms. Saying you should behave in this way or that in a game or on a social site is no different than most people's belief that you shouldn't play gangsta rap in church. Whether the rules of the place should be respected are entirely up to the group who participates in that place.
In the case of City of Heroes, our place is a game, or at least game-like. However this does not preclude the possibility of real emotional involvement. In fact I'd argue that a game/place with emotionally involved people is socially superior to one people treat as transient (e.g., public restrooms). Being positively nasty to each other should absolutely be discouraged, but not, IMO, because emotional attachment is a negative thing.
There is a something of a sidetrack to all of this that I can't quite seem to tie into my overarching response that I still want to share. It is this article, which came out shortly after the Sept 11 terrorist attacks. The link is: http://elonka.com/mirrors/CFT/coverstory.html
I remember being a player of the affected game when this happened, and the impact it had on the playerbase as a whole. I knew of the player involved through message boards and some limited interactions in-game, and am pretty sure there was some real emotion I felt from this event as well. I know that the story says something about both under- and over-attachment to an online place, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. Also, the reporter's attitude (essentially implying that online communities are not as real as physical ones), contrasts with the reported emotional responses of the player base (sadness, rage, a feeling of having been betrayed) so sharply that I'm sure there's a lesson there, even if I'm unable to fully draw it out. All I know for sure is both the reporter and the original link's writer operate from similar premises.
That's got to be one of the most interesting articles I've read in months, Oedipus.
Back on topic: I think like I said, the answer is moderation. I wouldn't advocate people going out and being sociopaths. I also do not in any way condone griefing. Riots have been held over lost football and basketball games. I actually have an example from last night of more of what I mean. I was in Pocket D, when I read a really good bio of another player. The end says "I hope we have a understand you and me." and just because I thought the player was a bit better at writing than the usual people I come across who can't seem to type decipherable sentences, I say
"That last sentence should read "I hope we have an understanding, you and I." >.>"
I wasn't trying to be a b*tch or anything. I thought they were a really good writer, and I like to be corrected when I have typed a sentence wrong in something as important as a bio. It's like telling me if I have spinach in my teeth. I don't want to walk around like that!
So they send a tell back:
"Is there anything else wrong with my bio?" and I think they're asking for my help, so I give it another proof read and say:
"Nope! Looks great!"
They don't respond for about five minutes, then suddenly I'm assaulted by a huge block of text, ranting, raving, cursing, then they say they're going to set me to ignore. I just say:
"Wow. I'm very sorry for trying to help."
Then I just decide not to send anymore tells. They just assumed I was trying to get under their skin, when... well, I'm a small town girl. We help each other and don't think anything of it where I am from. So the hostility of the internet that happens, even when you're just trying to help is pretty interesting. Everyone just seems to assume you're out to get them, and with the "commiseration spiral" it seems to do nothing but add fuel to the fire.
Another example is a few months ago I said something in passing to someone about public cybering in the D and how it was tasteless. A few weeks down the line out of nowhere they explode at me with "YOU'RE AN ELITIST AND THINK ALL ERPERS ARE BAD RPERS PERIOD!" out of nowhere. I was flabbergasted. I had a statement I had made weeks prior so twisted, distorted, and built upon thrown into my face that I couldn't help but suspect they had been talking to their friends and stoking the fire until I said something that pulled their trigger four weeks later.
Then I read this in that deadpool guide:
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Now, I didn't say anything griefish and I certainly didn't try to give the impression that I was an elitist or looked down on ERP. Some of my best in game friends ERP, and while I've never had any chars that have been in a relationship up to the romantic parts... the jury is still out on if I'd ERP. The only thing I had a problem with was people cybering in the center of the Pocket D in Local and even Broadcast because it forces someone to either set them to ignore for awhile, leave the area, and not be able to "unsee" what it is they have already seen... including underage players. |
Another issue to be on guard for when considering perspective is the commiseration spiral. A commiseration spiral occurs when two or more people who have been mildly put-out by a certain person's actions realize they share the same feelings, and rather than speaking to the offending person to try to resolve their differences, they instead proceed to complain to each other and reinforce their negative reactions until their opinion of that person is radically altered and exaggerated. Por ejemplo: Harland is playing Captain Humongous, Penelope is playing Rocket Tits, and Squeeb is playing Farnokk The Thrusting. Squeeb has been plotting an epic Farnokk The Thrusting saga for quite some time, and Squeeb is very excited about playing it through, as there are parts for both Captain Humongous and Rocket Tits. So excited, in fact, that he commits a hasty error of omission, and continues Farnokk's Mighty Thrusting attack on the Sinister Space Trolls without realizing that Rocket Tits has called for his help with fighting Captain Humongous. Penelope is struck with the impression that Squeeb is ignoring her, and says as much to Harland, tentatively. The exchange may go something like this. Penelope: "Hey, I think Squeeb didn't even read my pose." Harland: "Maybe not. Huh. Maybe he just skimmed it." Penelope: "Or maybe he doesn't really like me." Harland: "Or maybe he doesn't like ME." Penelope: "You know, I bet he's pissed about that time Captain Humongous kissed Rocket Tits outside of the laundromat." Harland: "Nobody understands our love." Penelope: "I can't BELIEVE he'd be this petty about something like that! It was our choice to make with the characters, and who is he to throw it in our faces, like he's some RP god who doesn't even read poses? Harland: "I'm so sick of this kind of ********! It's hurting the game, it is, and it's driving players away!" Penelope: "I bet Johnny Chundernuts quit because of that crap, too!" Harland: "Son of a *****! He probably sits around at home, masturbating to poultry porn and trying to increase his power on the game! You can't even talk to him anymore!" Penelope: "I know! It's got to STOP, I'm TIRED of this kind of treatment!" Squeeb: "Hey, Harland, it's your turn." Penelope & Harland: "YOU **** DOGS AND STAB THE ELDERLY WITH RUSTY PIRATE SHIP ANCHORS!" Squeeb: "... wh-what?" And so on. A simple mistake that could have been rectified by a gentle prod turns into a massive conspiracy theory about power plays and personal invectives. The commiseration spiral is a slippery slope indeed. |
I find a lot of things in that guide that are really useful to me, and I thought it would be helpful to share it with others. I do understand that the entire guide has a sarcastic tone to it. Over all though, I think the writing style was attempting to "make light" of the situations. After all, wouldn't we rather laugh than sneer?
Meh, people are ********. The internet just gives them a repercussionless platform to act like themselves.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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This kind of attitude itself creates a lot of the problems, however. I started this off by saying that the original article was dismissive of people's emotional investment, and this notion that people on the 'net will act like dicks because there are no consequences only serves to make things worse.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Meh, people are ********. The internet just gives them a repercussionless platform to act like themselves.
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The kinds of people who rely on anonymity and are transient in communities where they cause problems are not, at their root, members or founders of said communities. Because for those of us who end up belonging to a specific community (by choice or otherwise), anonymity is not an option. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I know for a fact that people here know me. I know for a fact that if I make an *** of myself, people will remember it. I know for a fact that the next time I show my face here, people will still remember that. As a point of fact, I am not anonymous here.
To be honest, a large percentage of Internet drama seems to be instigated by a dissonance of values when different personalities meet. When you have one person who scoffs at "pretendy fun games" and is liable to mock people for their attachment meet with another who is emotionally invested in his fictional universe and his immaterial community, then emotions usually fly.
The "Internet" may not be real, but it is still as real as television, radio or the telephone. It doesn't have to be "real" in any sense of the word, because it does nothing more than provide an environment for real people with real feelings and real emotions to interact. And as long as real people interact with each other, the interaction is "real enough," and as such shouldn't be dismissed as no big deal.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As a lover of fictional universes (including those I create), I've had to contend with surprisingly feisty attitudes, sometimes even from friends and family. So without embittering myself or developing a sour attitude of my own, I've learned how not to keep myself in the firing line of those who can't (or won't) understand these kinds of emotional attachments.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
When you have one person who scoffs at "pretendy fun games" and is liable to mock people for their attachment meet with another who is emotionally invested in his fictional universe and his immaterial community, then emotions usually fly.
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Some people can't embrace attachments to stuff they can't smell or throw a beer can at. It doesn't mean they're rotten people. They're not always JUST getting their ya-yas off by poking your emotional investments with a stick. Some of these folks are genuinely frustrated that you can do something with your imagination that they can't with theirs-- so, best for them to believe there's something wrong with you.
There's great relief in learning to ignore input from these people.
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Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
I found this guide the other day, and while not about mechanics I do think it's a good guide for dealing with the social aspects of gaming and playing in general, it's superhero theme makes it even better for here. If you've had problems dealing with overly annoying players, and such, you'll find some of the suggestions here well worth your while.
http://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html