Except, a group still still exploit the system if this was done, especially since you've got three arc slots.
Day 1: Publish Arc 1
Day 2: Publish Arc 2
Day 3: Publish Arc 3, Run Arc 1, delete Arc 1
Day 4: Republish Arc 1, Run Arc 2, delete Arc 2
etc.
Basically, a group of 8 could still run 8 exploitative missions a day at high XP for little to no risk. Depending on how the arc is set up, that could get you a fair amount of levels.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
For starters - I *really* find ending a post with "Discuss" irritating. What else are we going to do, print the post out and use it as a placemat?
As far as "may actually encourage players to try other 'legitimate' MA arcs that are otherwise ignored," no, it won't. Otherwise those legitimate arcs would be getting a lot of play in between the times the exploits come up. And that just isn't the case. Legit arcs are ignored by all but a few, it seems.
All of the ideas that have come up tend to either be still exploitable (see Aett's post) or would only make AE even less interesting to the general playing crowd (such as removing XP, or not letting anyone use it without a level 50) and almost completely kill it.
About the most reasonable I've seen suggested is a "level brake" - limit of, say, 5 levels a day regardless of however much it's run. That way the person's still rewarded but even the worst exploit is limited - no 50s-in-a-day.
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I'm with Bill on this. I think GG was the first person who proposed the "5 levels of AE XP in a day" (at least that I saw), and in the past I would have been annoyed with such a solution, but at this point, after everything else the AE has gone through, it's about the only thing left that makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
About the most reasonable I've seen suggested is a "level brake" - limit of, say, 5 levels a day regardless of however much it's run. That way the person's still rewarded but even the worst exploit is limited - no 50s-in-a-day.
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I'm tired of watching precious developer time go towards cleaning up exploits, but at the same time, we cannot (and should not) remove XP from the architect system. This is time that Dr. Aeon could be using to write more content and introduce new architect features, and the programmers could be using to fix bugs like those that delayed the launch of i19.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I'd support this. They already have a precedent that keeps people from switching factions rapidly.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
About the most reasonable I've seen suggested is a "level brake" - limit of, say, 5 levels a day regardless of however much it's run. That way the person's still rewarded but even the worst exploit is limited - no 50s-in-a-day.
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So by this observation, that means that running dev created content arcs or missions over and over is abuse and an exploit. Gotcha. | ... it appears MA abuse and exploits typically involve re-running the same arc or handful of arcs repeatedly,... |
Who cares if someone wants to run the same mission or arc over and over again? All you can do is bring what you feel is an exploit to the devs attention by /bug or /petition and move on. There really is no sense in drawing attention to it on the forums.
I suggested removing all XP from MA arcs, but then enable the purchasing of XP with MA merits. As merits are already capped per-mission, instant solution.
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Not exactly. The way I read what he was saying is that when the exploited arc is found, it's run almost solely or repeatedly. |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
So by this observation, that means that running dev created content arcs or missions over and over is abuse and an exploit. Gotcha.
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Now, if he wanted to target *that,* they could put in the same sort of rule as task forces - run it again, rewards go down, run it again, rewards go down. That, of course, is easy enough to get around by having multiple copies or un/re publishing the arc, though.
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And since there's a fixed amount of xp from 1 to 50 it's easy enough to draw a few lines (divive the cumulative by 3, 4 or 5) so that you can only earn a set amount within 24 hours.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I'm with Bill on this. I think GG was the first person who proposed the "5 levels of AE XP in a day" (at least that I saw), and in the past I would have been annoyed with such a solution, but at this point, after everything else the AE has gone through, it's about the only thing left that makes sense.
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Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I like it.|
Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg
...yeah, I meant MA not AE in the title. Sue me.
I suggest the following changes to MA XP: (1) A player may only earn XP from a given arc once every 24 hours. (2) An arc must be published for 48 hours before anyone can earn XP on that arc. From my observations, it appears MA abuse and exploits typically involve re-running the same arc or handful of arcs repeatedly, or the use of 'private arcs' where the mission leader repeated publishes an arc. I believe the changes proposed above would go a long way toward curtailing MA exploits, and may actually encourage players to try other 'legitimate' MA arcs that are otherwise ignored. Discuss. |
It won't solve the issue but it'll make those farming bastards' work harder. and I can get behind that.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
How about this:
XP you earn in the AE is not real xp, it's virtual XP, which functions similar to Patrol XP, i.e. you have to go out and earn actual "real" XP in order to benefit from your virtual "training session".
Another option would be to remove Influence rewards from the AE entirely. It would be perfectly reasonable since the AE missions are not real and thus shouldn't affect a character's fame or finances in any real way. Tickets more than make up for the loss of actual Inf rewards, and reducing the amount of Inf you get in the AE would reduce farming considerably, I believe, while still keeping the marketing promise of AE as an alternative way to level to 50.
Best would probably be to combine the two. You earn 0% influence and 50% XP in AE missions, but you gain Patrol XP up to the usual Patrol XP limit of thirty xp bubbles (I think) which will let you earn XP 50% faster when doing non-AE content. Tickets make up for the loss of Inf without causing inflation since you only produce merchandise and not money.
Another way to hand out the patrol XP might be to let us buy it with tickets. It might be easier to program it that way.
I think this would put an end to AE farming almost completely (tickets are still nice to get) and would limit the harm current and future exploits can cause before they can be plugged.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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These are very interesting ideas. I'm already in full agreement with you on the No Inf thing, that has never made any sense to me whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
How about this:
XP you earn in the AE is not real xp, it's virtual XP, which functions similar to Patrol XP, i.e. you have to go out and earn actual "real" XP in order to benefit from your virtual "training session". Another option would be to remove Influence rewards from the AE entirely. It would be perfectly reasonable since the AE missions are not real and thus shouldn't affect a character's fame or finances in any real way. Tickets more than make up for the loss of actual Inf rewards, and reducing the amount of Inf you get in the AE would reduce farming considerably, I believe, while still keeping the marketing promise of AE as an alternative way to level to 50. Best would probably be to combine the two. You earn 0% influence and 50% XP in AE missions, but you gain Patrol XP (up to a certain limit) which will let you earn XP 50% faster when doing non-AE content. Tickets make up for the loss of Inf without causing inflation since you only produce merchandise and not money. I think this would put an end to AE farming almost completely (tickets are still nice to get) and would limit the harm current and future exploits can cause before they can be plugged. |
The concept of 50% XP and 50% Patrol XP is an excellent one too though, I like that a lot.
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Not fond of this one too much.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
How about this:
XP you earn in the AE is not real xp, it's virtual XP, which functions similar to Patrol XP, i.e. you have to go out and earn actual "real" XP in order to benefit from your virtual "training session". |
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| Another option would be to remove Influence rewards from the AE entirely. It would be perfectly reasonable since the AE missions are not real and thus shouldn't affect a character's fame or finances in any real way. Tickets more than make up for the loss of actual Inf rewards, and reducing the amount of Inf you get in the AE would reduce farming considerably, I believe, while still keeping the marketing promise of AE as an alternative way to level to 50. |
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| Best would probably be to combine the two. You earn 0% influence and 50% XP in AE missions, but you gain Patrol XP up to the usual Patrol XP limit of thirty xp bubbles (I think) which will let you earn XP 50% faster when doing non-AE content. Tickets make up for the loss of Inf without causing inflation since you only produce merchandise and not money. |
Also, the limit is ten bubbles.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
Can you give us a reason for why you think it's not a good idea?
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Just make a Giant padlock on the AE door, give everyone a key, those that are found to be constantly performing exploits take there key away from them permanantly.
Then I can laugh at them as i go in and out and much as I please 
, whilst they sit at the door begging to come in where it's safe, then I can Broadcast " I hear you knocking but you can't come in"
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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...and then someone sets the AE mission on the team, and they use the Mission Teleporter to bypass the lock.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
Just make a Giant padlock on the AE door, give everyone a key, those that are found to be constantly performing exploits take there key away from them permanantly.
Then I can laugh at them as i go in and out and much as I please , whilst they sit at the door begging to come in where it's safe, then I can Broadcast " I hear you knocking but you can't come in" |
But then they could counter with Exploiter Drone, zap back to hosp. (oh and include some debt in that )
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Hmmm...might that not be the reason the old Dreck map was turned into a timed mission?|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
So by this observation, that means that running dev created content arcs or missions over and over is abuse and an exploit. Gotcha.
Who cares if someone wants to run the same mission or arc over and over again? All you can do is bring what you feel is an exploit to the devs attention by /bug or /petition and move on. There really is no sense in drawing attention to it on the forums. |
And I never said players couldn't re-run arcs to their heart's content. Just that XP would only be awarded on that arc once every 24 hours.
My suggestions were geared toward penalizing the MA exploiters or making them jump through excessive hoops while imposing no penalties on players using the MA system as intended.
Discuss...er I mean, Make a Placemat!
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!
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Which one?
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Can you give us a reason for why you think it's not a good idea?
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What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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How do you differentiate between the 2? If I decide that the arc I just ran had a good story and good game play and I choose to run it a few times, does that mean I get my xp messed with because I'm (in your own terms) a farmer or exploiter? Everyone seems to forget, the Devs marketed that the AE was an alternative way to level from 1-50. There were no restrictions put on it. While I agree that the exploits should be dealt with as they are found, there is nothing the Devs can do until they are found.
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Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg
Hmmm...might that not be the reason the old Dreck map was turned into a timed mission?
And I never said players couldn't re-run arcs to their heart's content. Just that XP would only be awarded on that arc once every 24 hours. My suggestions were geared toward penalizing the MA exploiters or making them jump through excessive hoops while imposing no penalties on players using the MA system as intended. Discuss...er I mean, Make a Placemat! |
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If you want to run it again so badly so soon, grab an alt.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
How do you differentiate between the 2? If I decide that the arc I just ran had a good story and good game play and I choose to run it a few times, does that mean I get my xp messed with because I'm (in your own terms) a farmer or exploiter? Everyone seems to forget, the Devs marketed that the AE was an alternative way to level from 1-50. There were no restrictions put on it. While I agree that the exploits should be dealt with as they are found, there is nothing the Devs can do until they are found.
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What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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It's not if I want to run it again imediately. It's if I run it again at all in that 24 hr period. If I want to show a friend that arc or what not. And you didn't answer the question. How do you differentiate between a regular player and farmer? The answer is, you can't. This would be a coding nightmare and bring about way to many problems. Stop trying to determine how other people should play. I would argue that the people who find these exploits are doing what the Devs should have done before AE was implemented. While it is hard to imagine every concievable way to exploit the system, it should have been tested a lot more then it was.
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Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
If you want to run it again so badly so soon, grab an alt.
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In theory, they do. One of the earlier exploits mentioned locking the AE slots from accounts creating and running (IIRC - might have been creating) exploitive arcs. Whether it's all their slots, I don't know - obviously it doesn't keep them from running the OTHER peoples exploits. Then again, it has to be a paid account. |
Originally Posted by Slazenger
Just make a Giant padlock on the AE door, give everyone a key, those that are found to be constantly performing exploits take there key away from them permanantly.
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So, sure, someone could keep getting their account or arc slots locked, paying for a new copy of the game, getting that locked, etc. to get around it, but other than that....
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
How do you differentiate between the 2? If I decide that the arc I just ran had a good story and good game play and I choose to run it a few times, does that mean I get my xp messed with because I'm (in your own terms) a farmer or exploiter? Everyone seems to forget, the Devs marketed that the AE was an alternative way to level from 1-50. There were no restrictions put on it. While I agree that the exploits should be dealt with as they are found, there is nothing the Devs can do until they are found.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
It's not if I want to run it again imediately. It's if I run it again at all in that 24 hr period. If I want to show a friend that arc or what not. And you didn't answer the question. How do you differentiate between a regular player and farmer? The answer is, you can't. This would be a coding nightmare and bring about way to many problems. Stop trying to determine how other people should play. I would argue that the people who find these exploits are doing what the Devs should have done before AE was implemented. While it is hard to imagine every concievable way to exploit the system, it should have been tested a lot more then it was.
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That's farming activity, no matter where it is. And I'm not coming down on farming in and of itself. In fact, you'll see it again shortly when the Winter event comes around as people try to - yes, farm - candy canes for rewards. I'll be doing that, as well, to get that Winters Gift slow resist IO for some of my characters. I won't be doing it because I just loooooove dealing with Baby Mutant and Snaptooth.
And as far as "the people who find these exploits doing what the devs should have done?" Sure. If you find an exploit, say, level 14 skulls providing 100,000 XP and INF a piece, great! /petition Reward issue in AE, send them the info. THAT is what is supposed to be done. Not "Make map, tell everyone to try to keep it quiet, PL 1-50 in an hour for the next few weeks."
And no, running an arc over and over, again, doesn't make it an exploit. The exploits, however, lead to running the exploitive *maps* over and over. Again, going back to my theoretical skulls - if they're giving normal rewards, people will run them on occasion, sure. Maybe someone will run it twice in a row to show it to someone (though they can send the arc number) or see just what I did in the mission. If they're giving 100k XP and INF for a minion? You'd better believe you'll see groups grinding that map out and restarting as fast as possible.
All the above is why I'm perfectly fine with the "5 level limit" suggested elsewhere. If someone wants to run an arc several times, they can. If someone wants to PL on that arc, it'll take them 10 days, and if they want more rewards, well, they can stick their nose out into the rest of the game world (or, yeah, go to an alt, but that will still be limited to 5 levels.)
(Edit: For one of the other PLing reasons, I'm still up for PVP-only characters that can be made @50, yes.)
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The problem here is you've - completely incidentally - established both an upper and a lower boundry on XP gain.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I think GG was the first person who proposed the "5 levels of AE XP in a day" (at least that I saw).
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"We", being all the players, would know (for certain - it's right there in the code!) that "five levels a day" is an acceptable rate of gain. Anything at or under five-a-day is not an exploit; it's working as-intended. And anyone earning less-than-five a day is not "living up to their potential".
...so why do regular missions make it all but impossible for me to earn my "five a day"? If five-a-day is "acceptable", why not let me do it running "real" content, instead of just farms?
It's also worth noting that Golden Girl, having only a single character with no alts, and that character already being max level, is probably not a good person to ask about rules affecting XP gain and / or new characters; I'm pretty sure even she'll admit she's in a position that such rules would affect her ... oddly.
(I'm not discounting GG's opinion. Just saying it's formed under markedly different circumstances from someone with dozens of alts at various levels - and probably differently from the majority of the playerbase.)
(Also note that I think Tickets-For-XP is a great idea worth further investigation.)
...yeah, I meant MA not AE in the title. Sue me.
I suggest the following changes to MA XP:
(1) A player may only earn XP from a given arc once every 24 hours.
(2) An arc must be published for 48 hours before anyone can earn XP on that arc.
From my observations, it appears MA abuse and exploits typically involve re-running the same arc or handful of arcs repeatedly, or the use of 'private arcs' where the mission leader repeated publishes an arc.
I believe the changes proposed above would go a long way toward curtailing MA exploits, and may actually encourage players to try other 'legitimate' MA arcs that are otherwise ignored.
Discuss.
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!