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Originally Posted by Teeko
So why not port some of the kicks and punches from the martial arts set and super strength (animation punches) sets proliferated as a secondary for blasters...
Was thinking about this the other day when i was rolling another dual pistols toon. Im not a huge fan of traps and the other sets dont "work" for a natural based toon. Thoughts? |
No one else has ever thought of this. Ever.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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really?|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
No one else has ever thought of this. Ever.
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Wow! I am truly awesome. can I have my awesome cape now?
/endsarcasm
I think he was being rude and sarcastic.
There's a simple problem with this suggestion.
Blaster secondaries aren't Melee. They're Manipulation. Even the most attack-happy Manipulation sets don't get more than 3, 4 melee attacks. Even assuming you took three or four kicks or punches, you'd need more powers to fill in the gaps.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
he wasn't being rude. just sarcastic. this is why there is a search button at the top of the forums.
Cobra Strike (old version, just a stun with tiny damage)
Storm Kick
Focus Chi
Crane Kick
Conserve Power
Caltrops
Quickness
Blinding Powder OR Smoke Flash
Eagle's Claw
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
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Ahahahahahaha... nice one...|
Originally Posted by CBeet
Cobra Strike (old version, just a stun with tiny damage)
Storm Kick Focus Chi Crane Kick Conserve Power Caltrops Quickness Blinding Powder OR Smoke Flash Eagle's Claw |
Wait. You're serious?
Okay, first problem - you put a Hard Control as the Tier one. That's not going to fly, even at a melee range. Immobilize or Knockback, just like every other Manipulation set.
Second - Quickness? Yeah... I don't see the Devs being so out of it as to give the AT with Defiance - an inherent that rewards making fast attacks - with a recharge reducing auto power.
Finally - Manipulation sets are designed to keep the Blaster OUT of melee combat, not to encourage getting into it. I'd be really surprised if the Devs make a new Manipulation set that has more than 2 melee attacks, and maybe a PBAoE.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Energy Manipulation|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Finally - Manipulation sets are designed to keep the Blaster OUT of melee combat, not to encourage getting into it. I'd be really surprised if the Devs make a new Manipulation set that has more than 2 melee attacks, and maybe a PBAoE.
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Fire Manipulation
Sorry, what was your arguement again?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Except that it is long established that Energy Manipulation is Not a well balanced Blaster secondary and I would argue the same is true of Fire Manipulation.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Energy Manipulation
Fire Manipulation Sorry, what was your arguement again? |
Look at the most recently added set, Mental Manipulation, to see what the Devs currently think a Blaster secondary should do.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Lol everyone has thought about this. I definitely feel this should be added though |
Originally Posted by Teeko
So why not port some of the kicks and punches from the martial arts set and super strength (animation punches) sets proliferated as a secondary for blasters...
Was thinking about this the other day when i was rolling another dual pistols toon. Im not a huge fan of traps and the other sets dont "work" for a natural based toon. Thoughts? |
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Based on what facts, exactly?
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Except that it is long established that Energy Manipulation is Not a well balanced Blaster secondary and I would argue the same is true of Fire Manipulation.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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OneWhoBinds, I can see your reasoning on the first point so how about.. Ah, I know, Bolas, like Batman uses. Ranged immob + knockdown, no damage or debuff though.
IMO, giving a Blaster Quickness is about as silly as them getting Boost Range (Energy Manipulation) and especially Drain Psyche (Mental Manipulation. Which, might I add, comes 8 levels earlier than Quickness from that suggestion).
For your last point, might I refer you back to Techbot and also add Ice Manipulation (Ice Patch primarily, but also melee attacks/mez), Mental Manipulation (Drain Psyche, Psychic Shockwave), Elec. Manipulation (Power Sink primarily, but of course all the melee attacks too).
With a Martial Manipulation set, yes it would be melee heavy but with the added bonus of additional control in the attacks. Add in Smoke Flash for the PBAoE placate or Blinding Powder for a pre-emptive strike, I'd imagine it would fit the bill for a natural powerset to pair with the weapon sets (most certainly if it was made to not cause redraw with the attacks too).
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
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Originally Posted by CBeet
not cause redraw with the attacks too
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I don't think this is really possible. There would have to be separate animations for Every Archery and AR attack.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
And DP, but yeah point still taken.
It'd still be nice though! 
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
Let's compare this a moment:
Mental Manipulation:
Subdual
Mind Probe
Telekinetic Thrust
Psychic Scream
Concentration
Drain Psyche
World of Confusion
Scare
Psychic Shockwave
So, we have:
immob
meele attack
Meele attack w/ knockback
meele cone
build-up
PBAoE Confuse
Fear
PBAoE attack
4 attacks, 3 mez, and one self-buff
Now, let's compare with Electricity Manipulation:
Electric Fence
Charged Brawl
Lightning Field
Havoc Punch
Build Up
Lightning Clap
Thunder Strike
Power Sink
Shocking Grasp
So we have:
Immob
Meele
PBAoE Aura
Meele
Build Up
PBAoE attack
Strong Meele
PBAoE endurance drain
Meele attack w/ hold
5 attack, 3 mez, 1 self-buff
So, in both cases, the first is an immobilize type. To get comparable with this, here is my adjustment:
Crippling Axe Kick
Storm Kick
Cobra Strike
Crane Kick
Focus Chi
Thunder Kick
Dragon Tail
Eagle's Claw
5 attack, 3 mez, 1 self-buff
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Can I point back to the Bolas idea? You know, the two weights attached by rope which're thrown to tie up/tangle the legs. A short duration immob with knockdown on hit could work well. Also, it's very much just Martial Arts in a different order which is why the inclusion of Quickness (self buff) and the support powers (Caltrops, Smoke Flash, Blinding Powder) were there to set it apart.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
Crippling Axe Kick
Storm Kick Cobra Strike Crane Kick Focus Chi Thunder Kick Dragon Tail Eagle's Claw 5 attack, 3 mez, 1 self-buff |
Not sure why, I just picture something like a cross between Energy Manipulation and Devices, using pieces from Martial Arts, Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu (as they're the most 'natural' sets there are).
The idea has come up many times before and each time the discussion of what powers would go in is argued over and, in my experience, it's usually a mix of Martial Arts and Ninjitsu which pleases most.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
A knife-based secondary would be awesome too.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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How about you actually reference the ranges of the powers in question rather than simply blithely stating that a power is an attack or a mez? Manipulation sets are supposed to have attacks within them. We all know this. What you're ignoring is that only 4 of the powers in Mental Manipulation have "melee" ranges (they may be melee PbAoEs, but they have ranges that are large enough that it's not entirely accurate to describe them as being "melee", especially Psychic Scream), not to mention that their design is actually intended to make them support powers for when you are in melee rather than default attacks (unless you think lower damage attacks with heavy debuff components are intended to be default attacks).|
Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
Let's compare this a moment:
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Using Mental Manipulation as a design reasoning to have a set that is comprised entirely of melee attacks doesn't really grok. Something else to consider with your set is that you're also using a large number of powers that are now known to be very heavy hitters (pretty much everything in there that isn't Thunder Kick) and forcing them to be weakened to such an extent that they no longer work like they used to. At least with the other powers Manipulation sets share with outright melee sets, the powers at least operate in a similar manner (with the possible exception of Frozen Aura). How would you deal with the critical functionality of Storm Kick and Eagles Claw anyway (which it doesn't really make much sense for Blasters to have)?
I would like to note in this thread, about the nature of manipulation sets, that Castle has said in a PM (I believe with Arcanaville, though it might have been someone else) that manipulation sets are not easily defined, but in the end, the Blaster's role isn't exactly ranged damage, it's just 'To Do Damage' whether at a range or up close.
So a martial arts set that's heavy on the melee damage isn't so far off.
also, speaking as a player of an Archery/Energy blaster, Energy manipulation rules!
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Blasters;
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Thats the official description. See how it never says anywhere that the Blaster must be at range? Thats because it doesnt matter; Blasters are purely about damage, at the cost of any shields. They simply use more damage to kill stuff faster.
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The Blaster is an offensive juggernaut. This hero can deal a ton of damage from either a distance or up-close, but he must be careful because he's somewhat fragile compared to other heroes. The Blaster can't stand toe to toe with most opponents for long. His best defense is a great offense! |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Seems to me that a Natural Manipulation set is going to need to have a mix of martial arts and toys. I'd suggest giving it attacks such as Bolas, Caltrops, and Smoke Bombs. Take 3 or 4 attacks from MA, plus Focus Chi, then add Smoke Flash, Caltrops, a Bolas attack for the T1, and maybe Blinding Powder. Maybe slide in Conserve Power somewhere.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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That's correct. The myth that blasters or blaster power sets are *intended* to keep blasters out of range as an archetypal requirement is canonically disavowed. Blaster powersets are specifically intended to deal damage, or help blasters deal damage. *Some* preferentially skew towards staying at range, and some skew towards engaging at range, and some are more balanced between the two.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I would like to note in this thread, about the nature of manipulation sets, that Castle has said in a PM (I believe with Arcanaville, though it might have been someone else) that manipulation sets are not easily defined, but in the end, the Blaster's role isn't exactly ranged damage, it's just 'To Do Damage' whether at a range or up close.
So a martial arts set that's heavy on the melee damage isn't so far off. also, speaking as a player of an Archery/Energy blaster, Energy manipulation rules! |
Having said that, a blaster secondary with nothing but melee attacks and the odd self buff (i.e. Build Up) is highly unlikely. All blaster secondaries have more variety than that, even Electric Manip, and the trend is likely to be more towards utilitarian blaster secondaries rather than blapper-focused ones for practical reasons: blapper sets already exist (Energy, Elec in particular) and the devs don't make new powersets frequently, so new sets tend to expand beyond what existing sets do rather than rehash what they already do in cosmetically different ways. The correct approach to acquiring a "natural" blaster powerset is probably to advocate powerset customization for a set like Energy to remove the pompoms, and then just stay away from the conceptually jarring powers such as boost range and power boost.
A devices/ninjitsu hybrid possibly stands a better chance, but still not a good one. But then again, you just never know with blasters. How we ended up with powers like Drain Psyche or the ultimate nerf-bait-survivor Siren's Song I really couldn't explain.
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Is the world ready for ranged stalker mk II?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A devices/ninjitsu hybrid possibly stands a better chance, but still not a good one. But then again, you just never know with blasters. How we ended up with powers like Drain Psyche or the ultimate nerf-bait-survivor Siren's Song I really couldn't explain.
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And I'm not really sure how we ended up with Drain Psyche, but I try not to question my good fortune. I took Mental Manipulation on my last blaster for Drain Psyche and World of Confusion, and all the rest of the set was nothing but set anchors as far as I was concerned.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I'm definitely in favour of a melee secondary for blasters. I think it's an idea whose time has come. There are some great suggestions here, and there was another post that had a lot of debate surrounding it.
So why not port some of the kicks and punches from the martial arts set and super strength (animation punches) sets proliferated as a secondary for blasters...
Was thinking about this the other day when i was rolling another dual pistols toon. Im not a huge fan of traps and the other sets dont "work" for a natural based toon.
Thoughts?