Thoughts:
There are 14 ATs. A team is 8 people. Conclusion: The devs will probably try pretty hard to ensure that no AT is ever really needed to complete content without having to work all that much harder.
I think the designers intend that tankers are good, but not necessary.
First, no Scrapper or Brute is going to match the durability and aggro management ability of a true tanker; even at the soft cap a tanker just has more hit points, more resistance and better aggro tools. On the other hand scrappers will deal considerably more damage than even the best tanker... my Shield/Fire tank puts out immense damage for a tanker but still falls short of a scrapper's damage. Not very far short of average scrapper damage although top level scrappers will leave him in the dust damage wise.
Yes, there are scrappers who are tough enough to tank; I have one myself in my soft capped Broadsword/Shield scrapper. Yes he's main tanked the ITF without much problem. Was he as good at it as, say, my Shield/Fire tanker? No, because the tanker is better at aggro control. Was he "good enough" to get by? Yes, because I understand tanking, aggro control and was working my butt off at aggro to the detriment of my damage output.
What you need to do is decide what you want out of the character. A really good scrapper build can do amazing things but it takes more work to get to that point for a scrapper while that level of durability isn't far off of the base performance of a tank. As an example my BS/Shield scrapper is highly durable but I have over 200 million in +defense IO bonuses in him. My Shield/Fire tanker is much more durable and his build is less than 20 million in +defense bonuses. (These figures don't include the entire build, just the sets to build the defenses... comparing complete level 50 builds the Scrapper's around 1.5 billion while the Tanker's around 300 million)
Tankers and Scrappers are different and have different purposes. A tanker's purpose is to put himself between the enemy and the team... he's the bodyguard. A scrapper's purpose is to run in and punch the bad guy's face in. Both are capable to an extent of filling the others' purpose but they aren't as good at it.
Scrappers and Brutes both have the same purpose, run in and smash the other guy's face in, but they have different mechanics in the way they work. Both have the same numbers on defense (although Brutes have higher caps) while a Scrapper has more base damage and a Brute has a higher damage cap along with Fury to boost their damage. The figures I've seen show it tends to be a dead heat in damage output overall between the two. Both do the same job, and overall both do it equally well.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
CMA I have a lot of respect for you and don't want to say anything that will put me in a bad light with you but
I have this major issue and that is I always have to know why.
"First, no Scrapper or Brute is going to match the durability and aggro management ability of a true tanker"
Shield and invul have awesome taunt aura
Plus with the aoes and the higher damage I would assume that draw quite a alot of attention to themselves
45% defense is 45 defense that means 5% chance to hit.
some mobs can debuff your defense so you may need to add a few more percentages which will be easier for a tanker
My 38 stone tanker can not pull agro back from an electric/shield scrapper after he has wiped out the entire spawn.
My 40 SD/SS tanker can not pull agro back of a Katana/Invul on an AV unless I use taunt
41 is a far as I have made it with my tankers. because I always get discouraged when a brute or Scrapper come in
the group and show me up and yes this happens.
I die every now and again and several people get scared. Then the scrapper or brute step up and tank the rest of the mob
while the rest of the group whittles them away.
yes it makes me very upset. Why am I sacrificing so much damage when another AT can tank as well as me or better.
:"hit points, more resistance and better aggro tools"
I have not been able to do the 50 TFs yet so I don't know how this works.
I agree the tanker has more of everything you mentioned but does the % of tanking match the % of damage you give up?
That is what I am trying to calculate.
"my Shield/Fire tank puts out immense damage for a tanker but still falls short of a scrapper's damage. Not very far short of average scrapper"
"damage although top level scrappers will leave him in the dust damage wise."
I don't care about the average scrappers I want to know top level tank VS. TL scrapper and TL brute % in differences.
Trust me sir I have been following your SD/Fire like a hawk on its prey. I even started one based on your comments about the massive damage
the problem is I look at the numbers and say to myself I could start a brute and have the same defense along with better damage.
If the defense cap was 55 and I had to work my **** off as a tank to get there and no other AT could beat me there then I would be satisfied.
The issue is 3 or more other ATs can be the same as me while maintaining their choke hold on damage.
for that matter most other ATs that work at it can get to the 45% soft cap.
So now I am left with 90 resist cap
which off the top of my head a brute and scrapper can get to 75.
1000 Damage Tanker would take 100 brute and scrapper would take 250
I can understand that the tanker will take less damage as far as resist goes but how does this compare to the amount of
damage being dished out?
does the 75 VS. 90 amount to the disparity between the dps of the melee classes.
I am going to keep bruise out of the situation because even from a N00b it is clear 99.9% of this game that I have seen is AOE based.
That is why my question refers to issue 19. In the end all end is it more of the same or does a true tanker have a real role?
Again sir, I don't know enough about the mechanics of recharge and what the others "really" sacrifice to get to that
45 D 75 R.
"Yes he's main tanked the ITF without much problem *scrapper*"
So is there anything in the game that is harder than that? will I19 bring the tanker to the forefront or will the status qua remain the same?
"What you need to do is decide what you want out of the character. A really good scrapper build can do amazing things but it takes more work to "
"get to that point for a scrapper while that level of durability isn't far off of the base performance of a tank."
I want the BEST tank in the game that can maximize 100% of his damage. I want to be able to tank the hardest content in the game and I want to
be able to pump out the most damage I can while tanking the hardest content in the game.
If this is a stone/strawberry tank then that's what it is. I just want to know what that is.
Ultima Online ruined me for life.
Anyhow I really do admire all the work you guys put into the tanker and I apologize for being ignorant on how the class really works.
I'll just repeat what CMA said. Equal expenditure and a tank is 100 fold tougher than a scrapper. It just depends on if you find that extra toughness necessary.
See those tests where scrappers do RWZ spawns and try to survive? A well built tank laughs through it. Yes, they'll take 10x as long but they are largely indestructible when built right.
There are very few hard numbers on effectiveness because effectiveness is based upon your own personal judgements. Perhaps you find the ability to kills things very very fast as being most effective: choose scrapper. Or if you want to be the person up front that tends to be able to make the calls and decides the speed of the team: choose tank.
There are too many variabilities to say even between powersets which is the best and which is the worst. Again, same reasoning.
Tankers shine on hard content when you lack support. Simple. The tank is the only one who can stand toe to toe with an AV without blinking if you don't have any support. Scrappers can be built to solo some AVs, but soloing Rommie or other 54 AVs is probably going to end in disaster.
If you want the most irreplacable character, pick support. Otherwise, anything can be substituted.
I had to google 100 fold; as my math is not as good as yours but are you saying a tanker is 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 tougher than a scrapper?
No I have not seen the test with regards to RWZ.
I have seen post where a scrapper has been able to tank multiple AVs
"Tankers shine on hard content when you lack support. Simple."
That is why I was asking about issue 19. I would love to laugh at a non Tank class trying to fill my role instead of laughing at myself.
I also saw a post where a corruptor Fire/traps tanked three AVs.
Is it only your opinion that the tanker calls the shot or that factual information.
I am not trying to be rude I am only trying to get the facts so that in my weak little mind I can justify what I am doing.
You got me, that is EXACTLY what I meant.
Will there ever be an absolute need for a TANK? NO Then again will there be an absolute need for a Kin or a Rad? NO Put together a good 8 man team where everyone knows how to play and knows how to play their character and just about any combination can be successful. In the past few days on Beta I have done a lot of Task Forces as I got famiiar with the Incarnate System. I did an ITF with a team that had no Brute and no Tank and we rolled through the missions killing everything to maximize the shard drop. When we got to Romulus in the final mission we used a very complex strategy ... We rushed him and just kept dealing damage until he was done and we had a mission complete.
That said are there instances where having a good tank around definately makes life easy? Heck Yeah. I did the Tin Man TF on a team with three tanks. If you are not familiar with it in mission one we face Director 11, a Malta AV, in the final battle. It took a little experimenting but eventually we had one Tank holding the AV's attention, One containing the waves of Clockwork that kept spawning, while the third kept an eye out for anything else and several of us directed our fire through him. On the other hand on the Apex TF a Tank comes in handy on mission one but mission two is decidedly melee unfriendly.. I don't care if your a Tank, a Brute or a Scrapper you better not try to stand in one place and just pound on Battle Maiden or your asking for multiple trips to the hospital. Trust me I did it with my tanker I know from PAINFUL experience LOL
I have yet to be on one but I know there are Tanks that went Vigilante and even totally switched to Villain. I am betting they come in quite handy on the Lord Recluse SF when you have to fce all those Heroes in one spot in the final mission. A Brute can tank very well but is still not quite as good at aggro unless they have their build designed around it and have purples in slots. A Scrapper, some scrapers, can tank a bit but their ability to taunt and hold aggro will never hold up against what a tank can do. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that a Tank is not a good damage dealer. MY WP/DB Tank has her Alpha slotted for damage and I was curious and added up the average damage totals. By running through my available attacks ONCE I can do over 1200 HP of damage. That is without repeating any one attack and doesn't even add in what I can do with temp powers like Sands of Mu (one of my Vet rewards). My SD/SS Tanker will Shield charge into a mob, hit Foot Stomp and then start cleaning up anyhing that isn't aleady dead. And yeah I did slot both of those to maximize their damage output. Okay so a lot of Brutes and Scrappers can do better.. Big Deal! If your planning to team with your tank no one expects ANYONE to do all the damage while they stand there and watch. As long as your doing your share and helping the squishies by holding aggro and keeping +2 Bosses out of their face.. Your contributing and have nothing to feel bad about. Relax and enjoy playing whatever AT you happen to have logged on.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Okay. Two things you have to consider here.|
Originally Posted by InUse
I had to google 100 fold; as my math is not as good as yours but are you saying a tanker is 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 tougher than a scrapper?
No I have not seen the test with regards to RWZ. I have seen post where a scrapper has been able to tank multiple AVs "Tankers shine on hard content when you lack support. Simple." That is why I was asking about issue 19. I would love to laugh at a non Tank class trying to fill my role instead of laughing at myself. I also saw a post where a corruptor Fire/traps tanked three AVs. Is it only your opinion that the tanker calls the shot or that factual information. I am not trying to be rude I am only trying to get the facts so that in my weak little mind I can justify what I am doing. |
- The developers do not balance encounters against Invention Origin Buffs.
- The developers balance encounters against Single Origin Enhancements and ED caps.
Now, if any one of these archtypes were able to perform these actions on a build using Single Origin enhancements, then the developers would take notice and you'd see some changes on the way for any particular avatar.
The Alpha Slot system turns the concept of empowering your character on it's head. Unlike IO buffs, Alpha Slot buffs work on a per-power basis, rather than a base-stats basis. This in turn means that powers that players who have already have capped any specific effect into ED limits will see greater returns through the Incarnate system on those powers.
On paper, yes, the developers are already creating situations where only tanks and maybe brutes have a chance at surviving. Case in point would be the Tin Mage TF where Bobcat Vengeanced and promptly sliced up a Stone Tank as if it were a Fire Aura. In some of the potential combat situations, only tanks or brutes at attribute caps can survive any particular enemies onslaught. Given the performance of Bobcat is is not unreasonable to assume that the developers could, and would, create a situation where only a Tanker at attribute caps could survive an assault.
The general player-held theory is that by the time the incarnate system is finished, what are the obsessions of today, might not be as important. Soft-capping defense might not be particularly important to a defensive melee avatar if an incarnate effect allows them to add a to-hit debuff to all melee attacks.
Since we don't know the full scope of what the incarnate system will ultimately offer as a playable experience, making claims about the death of any one particular archtype is um... well... short cited.
Something else to consider is that the developers have shown flexibility in rethinking old designs, such as the Defender's Negligence and the Tanker's Gauntlet. If a substantial amount of the player base gets to a point where their avatar can do something that is not within the design scope of that avatar, we'll likely see more changes from Castle and Synapse.
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Nope. |
Originally Posted by InUse
Shield and invul have awesome taunt aura
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Invulnerablity scrappers have good taunt auras. But Shields sure as hell don't, and neither does Willpower. The paucity of Shield and Willpower tanks, on the other hand, they might make a teammate's taunt aura seem better than it is.
But shield's taunt aura is just meh for aggro management. Honestly, it just sounds like you've made your mind up and want people to agree with you.
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What you have to keep in mind about some of the exploits described on the forums is that they often feature cherry-picked builds or situations. That's especially true of the Scrapper forum; most of the prolific posters over there put even hardcore min/maxers to shame -- which is great, even admirable in its own way, but you shouldn't get too caught up in what goes on there.|
Originally Posted by InUse
I had to google 100 fold; as my math is not as good as yours but are you saying a tanker is 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 tougher than a scrapper?
No I have not seen the test with regards to RWZ. I have seen post where a scrapper has been able to tank multiple AVs "Tankers shine on hard content when you lack support. Simple." That is why I was asking about issue 19. I would love to laugh at a non Tank class trying to fill my role instead of laughing at myself. I also saw a post where a corruptor Fire/traps tanked three AVs. |
Every build has areas of weaknesses. At the high end of IO investment, you can mitigate some of your weaknesses, maybe even eliminate some of them, but you'll still be weak to something -- whether it's end drain or DEF debuffs or recharge debuffs or psionic damage or hard controls or whatever. You'll probably be weak to several things, in fact.
Tankers aren't necessarily the best at surviving in every imaginable situation. Survivability, after all, is a very broad category of performance. On the melee forums we tend to confine our discussions to what is easily quantifiable, because every melee AT has a whole powerset devoted to what I like to call passive survivability -- how much damage you can avoid, resist, and/or heal -- but we all understand that there's more to it than that.
So yeah, occasionally you'll see an example where a Corruptor survives in a situation that might give even your Tanker pause. That's because support ATs have a lot of proactive survivability -- but proactive survivability is generally less reliable than passive survivability; it relies on the player to recognize and neutralize threats often before those threats are even realized, and it is subject to its own set of situational weaknesses. What if the target has hold protection? Resists ToHit debuffs? Spams mez effects?
Squishies, in other words, have a much lower margin for error (or if you prefer, bad luck) than any melee AT. They also tend to bloom a lot later, and even when they do bloom, you must understand that their defensive options are comparatively unimpressive. A Blaster with 45% Smash/Lethal DEF may cruise through most common situations, may even be able to farm cherry-picked mobs, but throw her up against something that doesn't rely on S/L attacks and all of that defense becomes suddenly useless.
All else being equal, a Tanker is easily three or four times more survivable than a Scrapper. On teams with good buff support, a Brute can come close to a Tanker's survivability, but otherwise the Brute is just a Scrapper with higher hitpoints and slightly lower damage. That Tanker advantage does matter in practice; the only question is whether that advantage is important enough, to you, to offset the Tanker's offensive disadvantage.
No one else can answer that question for you. It depends on your playstyle and your teaming habits. For what little it's worth, I can tell you that I have an INV/SS Tanker and an SS/WP Brute, and though it's true that the Brute does more damage (particularly in an AoE), I found that the extra defensive build investment required on the Brute almost offsets the Tanker's damage disadvantage. The Tanker is in a better position to take advantage of double-stacked Rage (which provides Tankers more benefit than it does Brutes because of the slightly higher base-damage AT modifier and the lack of Fury to dilute the proportional damage bonus), and has Bruising in his back pocket for single targets.
So when it came time to trick out one of those similarly themed builds, I decided to focus on the Tanker first. Your mileage may vary.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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"100 fold" means "times 100".|
Originally Posted by InUse
I had to google 100 fold; as my math is not as good as yours but are you saying a tanker is 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 tougher than a scrapper?
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However, even that's not literally true. Assuming all the same toys, comparable powersets, and choosing some powersets in the Tanker's favor, you're more likely to be on the order of the tanker being 10x as hard to kill. Assuming you have some +defense in your powersets, it's also going to be cheaper/simpler to get a Tanker to the defense softcap (assuming no outside buffs), because they have higher defense numbers for the same powers compared to a Scrapper or Brute.
If you want to be really amazingly hard to kill, attract lots of aggro to yourself, and do OK but not usually amazing damage, pick a Tanker. If you want to hit like a truck and be decently hard to kill, pick a Scrapper. If you want to straddle those two, leaning towards Scrapper damage and survival performance solo and Tanker survival performance on a team with buffs, pick a Brute.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make this claim.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Nope.
Invulnerablity scrappers have good taunt auras. But Shields sure as hell don't, and neither does Willpower. The paucity of Shield and Willpower tanks, on the other hand, they might make a teammate's taunt aura seem better than it is. But shield's taunt aura is just meh for aggro management. Honestly, it just sounds like you've made your mind up and want people to agree with you. |
Against All Odds is significantly stronger than Invincibility. They both have the same duration and pulse time, but AAO has 8 debuffs (one for each damage debuff) and provides a damage buff (higher damage output results in higher threat).
It's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) auras in the game.
What always causes a problem for me is that many times what people consider " tanking " IMO isnt tanking.
Running in and SURVIVING the alpha is not tanking.
Aggroing a group is NOT tanking. ANYONE can aggro a group.
There are builds where a brute or a scrapper will be able to do some tanking. As someone stated that is by design so that you basically dont have to sit around waiting for a tank to show up before you can do a mission or TF. With the help of a team that Scrapper or Brute will be able to do some things, however ultimately they will not be able to manage and hold aggro as well as a tanker.
A tanker does not only have an aura, a tanker has taunt AND a tanker has gauntlet all tools to help him/her stand between the mobs and the team.
Many other builds are getting defense through IO's but what they are NOT getting is resistance to defense debuffs, very high base hit points, very high resistance and heals or regen all designed to help them control aggro and survive the event.
If tanks did more damage they would be very very unbalanced. I remember w few years ago they played with raising tank damage even slightly and it totally unbalanced the scale. I believe the new Brusing effect is a way for tanks to get some use out of their initial attacks and help at the lower levels.
There will ALWAYS be extreme builds especially with IO's and now with the Alpha slots coming but remember this is not the norm.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Both Shield and Invuln are good aggro magnets; and it's true that scrapper versions of the taunt auras have the tanker numbers for taunt duration and mag. What a scrapper completely lacks is the "Gauntlet" taunt effect that's part of every tanker attack, and a scrapper's Confront power is a weaker, single target version of a tanker's Taunt power.|
Originally Posted by InUse
CMA I have a lot of respect for you and don't want to say anything that will put me in a bad light with you but
I have this major issue and that is I always have to know why. "First, no Scrapper or Brute is going to match the durability and aggro management ability of a true tanker" Shield and invul have awesome taunt aura Plus with the aoes and the higher damage I would assume that draw quite a alot of attention to themselves 45% defense is 45 defense that means 5% chance to hit. some mobs can debuff your defense so you may need to add a few more percentages which will be easier for a tanker My 38 stone tanker can not pull agro back from an electric/shield scrapper after he has wiped out the entire spawn. My 40 SD/SS tanker can not pull agro back of a Katana/Invul on an AV unless I use taunt |
Your problem with getting aggro from a shield scrapper has to do with the mechanics of how aggro works. In order to gain aggro from another character you have to generate DOUBLE the threat of that other character; this is what leads to the typical "first in has aggro" effect you're seeing. Aggro is generated by many things, damage, debuffs and taunt effects. Who actually has aggro is the result of a very complex interaction of damage dealt, taunt effects, remaining duration of taunt effects and several other things. The power "Taunt" actually applies a HUGE multiplier to the user's threat (I forget exactly but I recall it's a factor of several thousand) thus virtually guaranteeing keeping aggro away from blasters and other squishies. Of course this same effect in a weaker form is also baked into taunt auras; thus your difficulty generating double the threat of that shield scrapper.
AV's are a special case. Taunt auras are autohit against all PvE mobs... except for AV's and GM's. Because of this you can't rely on your aura to hold an AV's aggro, but Taunt is a guarantee absent another player also taunting. Remember what I mentioned about needing double the threat of a character with aggro to steal it? If you aren't taunting an AV then a scrapper with a strong aura attacking full tilt is likely simply outdoing your aggro aura. Taunt is the leveler here.
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41 is a far as I have made it with my tankers. because I always get discouraged when a brute or Scrapper come in the group and show me up and yes this happens. I die every now and again and several people get scared. Then the scrapper or brute step up and tank the rest of the mob while the rest of the group whittles them away. yes it makes me very upset. Why am I sacrificing so much damage when another AT can tank as well as me or better. |
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I have not been able to do the 50 TFs yet so I don't know how this works. I agree the tanker has more of everything you mentioned but does the % of tanking match the % of damage you give up? That is what I am trying to calculate. "my Shield/Fire tank puts out immense damage for a tanker but still falls short of a scrapper's damage. Not very far short of average scrapper" "damage although top level scrappers will leave him in the dust damage wise." I don't care about the average scrappers I want to know top level tank VS. TL scrapper and TL brute % in differences. Trust me sir I have been following your SD/Fire like a hawk on its prey. I even started one based on your comments about the massive damage the problem is I look at the numbers and say to myself I could start a brute and have the same defense along with better damage. |
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If the defense cap was 55 and I had to work my **** off as a tank to get there and no other AT could beat me there then I would be satisfied. The issue is 3 or more other ATs can be the same as me while maintaining their choke hold on damage. for that matter most other ATs that work at it can get to the 45% soft cap. So now I am left with 90 resist cap which off the top of my head a brute and scrapper can get to 75. 1000 Damage Tanker would take 100 brute and scrapper would take 250 I can understand that the tanker will take less damage as far as resist goes but how does this compare to the amount of damage being dished out? does the 75 VS. 90 amount to the disparity between the dps of the melee classes. |
Let's take a simple case of a scrapper vs tanker HP. We'll assume that neither has any defense or resistance... the tanker survives 25% more damage due to his higher HP. You could look at that as the tanker has 25% resistance while the scrapper has 0% if you like and the numbers still come out the same.
On average a tanker will survive double the punishment of a scrapper thanks to a combination of 25% greater effectiveness in his armors and 25% more hit points.
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I am going to keep bruise out of the situation because even from a N00b it is clear 99.9% of this game that I have seen is AOE based. That is why my question refers to issue 19. In the end all end is it more of the same or does a true tanker have a real role? Again sir, I don't know enough about the mechanics of recharge and what the others "really" sacrifice to get to that 45 D 75 R. "Yes he's main tanked the ITF without much problem *scrapper*" So is there anything in the game that is harder than that? will I19 bring the tanker to the forefront or will the status qua remain the same? "What you need to do is decide what you want out of the character. A really good scrapper build can do amazing things but it takes more work to " "get to that point for a scrapper while that level of durability isn't far off of the base performance of a tank." I want the BEST tank in the game that can maximize 100% of his damage. I want to be able to tank the hardest content in the game and I want to be able to pump out the most damage I can while tanking the hardest content in the game. If this is a stone/strawberry tank then that's what it is. I just want to know what that is. Ultima Online ruined me for life. Anyhow I really do admire all the work you guys put into the tanker and I apologize for being ignorant on how the class really works. |
I've played several high level scrappers and by far the most durable is my BS/Shield. I have to admit though that he's not up to the durability of any of my high level tankers. I currently have 4 tankers at level 50 on live and 3 more level bumped tankers on test loaded with SO enhancements.
I played around a bit on the issue 16 closed beta with a level 50 Electric armor/Super Strength tanker with SO enhancements. I ran torture tests with that BASE LEVEL enhanced tanker and with my billion inf BS/Shield scrapper... I found that looking strictly on a durability standpoint that tanker was about even with the scrapper. An extreme build on one of the most powerful scrapper secondaries just equaled the durability of a base performance tanker. The same tests with a SO enhanced version of CMA, my Inv/Stone tanker, showed a marked superiority on the part of the Invuln tank.
I was testing solo with a variety of mob types on radio missions set to +2 level/x8 players on the difficulty settings to simulate a typical team. The only mobs where the Shield scrapper had an advantage over the base level Invuln (remember both tankers were SO only builds) was Malta thanks to the problem of Sappers. In every other situation - Council, COT, Nemesis and Carnies the tankers were superior.
If you have large amounts of inf to throw at it a Scrapper can approach a tanker's base level of durability and tanking ability. Of course the Scrapper will deal considerably better damage; after all damage is a scrapper's primary purpose while its a tanker's secondary purpose.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Nope.
Invulnerablity scrappers have good taunt auras. But Shields sure as hell don't, and neither does Willpower. The paucity of Shield and Willpower tanks, on the other hand, they might make a teammate's taunt aura seem better than it is. But shield's taunt aura is just meh for aggro management. Honestly, it just sounds like you've made your mind up and want people to agree with you. |
Willpower does have a pathetic taunt aura... it's quite good at buffing the tanker's survivability but terrible at holding aggro. Shield doesn't have that problem.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Excellent response CMA.
I have to agree. Even if you were to super IO out a scrapper if you did the same to a tank, the tanks survivability far eclipses the scrapper.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Huh, right you are. I wonder if that was changed at all. I've been labouring under the impression that AAO is basically RTTC, but for damage instead. Knowing it's up there with Invincibility is kinda a wake-up.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Um. Well, have you looked at Shield's aura, Against All Odds? Same duration, mag and tic rate as Invincibility coupled with a damage buff and small debuff. Trust me, Shield's every bit as good an aggro magnet as Invuln, and scrappers get the tanker numbers for taunt duration and mag as well.
Willpower does have a pathetic taunt aura... it's quite good at buffing the tanker's survivability but terrible at holding aggro. Shield doesn't have that problem. |
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I agree completely. (Brutes are a different story though.)
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Excellent response CMA.
I have to agree. Even if you were to super IO out a scrapper if you did the same to a tank, the tanks survivability far eclipses the scrapper. |
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
Going to have to agree with CMA here, read some of what you said but to reiderate a bit.
I have an Invul/SS Tank and an MA/Invul Scrapper both are softcapped and are able to reach HP cap with Dull pain and both are at S/L resists caps.
When it comes to survivability the Tanker has it in Spades, looking at the HP caps Tanks have 3534 and Scraps have 2409 assuming they both get hit with a lethal attack that does 1000 points of damage the tank will only take 100 points of damage bringing their health down to 3434, that is about 3% of a health loss, Scraps will lose 250 making that about a 10% loss in health. With including better regen rates with higher HP, I wouldn't say that Tanks are 100 times better than Scraps, but they are easily 10 times better as far as surviving goes.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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I believe AAO had the RTTC duration for a short while on Test, and maybe for a week or two on Live, but this was fixed very quickly. The notion that AAO is weak persisted.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Huh, right you are. I wonder if that was changed at all. I've been labouring under the impression that AAO is basically RTTC, but for damage instead. Knowing it's up there with Invincibility is kinda a wake-up.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Just a couple of nitpicks, in support of the general theme:
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All else being equal, a Scrapper's damage is 50% higher than a Tanker's (1.125 * 1.075 / 0.8 = ~1.5). There are obviously exceptions going both ways, but IO investment generally doesn't change that fundamental relationship; if anything, a spare-no-expense Tanker build will tend to have a comparative advantage because he has to use fewer resources on supplementing his defenses.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Top level scrapper damage would be close to double top level tanker damage, and top level scrapper durability would be about half top level (Stone Armor Granite) tanker durability. At the peak of scrapper durability you're probably about in the average range of tanker durability. And you're spending probably 100/1 in inf to get it, possibly considerably more. (100 inf on the scrapper vs 1 inf on the tanker)
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Oh heck yes. By your own example the scrapper at resist cap is taking TWO AND A HALF TIMES the damage that a tanker at the resist cap does; and that tanker has 25% more base HP. Additional HP can be looked at as resistance to all damage types as well. Let's take a simple case of a scrapper vs tanker HP. We'll assume that neither has any defense or resistance... the tanker survives 25% more damage due to his higher HP. You could look at that as the tanker has 25% resistance while the scrapper has 0% if you like and the numbers still come out the same. |
Defense and resistance do multiply the effectiveness of your HP, though. The more of each you have, the more valuable all of them become.
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| On average a tanker will survive double the punishment of a scrapper thanks to a combination of 25% greater effectiveness in his armors and 25% more hit points. |
If we assume that both builds are using layered defenses (like Invulnerability or any number of other sets), then we're looking at 33% more DEF, 33% more RES, and 40% more hp for the Tanker, which works out to ~147% more survivability.
In practice, and if we factor in extreme, high-end builds, the comparison obviously isn't that simple, but those simple calculations give us a decent ballpark understanding of the survivability difference. For good reason, the devs seem to give more weight to offense than they do to defense, so it wouldn't be fair to say that the Tanker wins simply because his survivability advantage is larger than his offensive disadvantage. If defense and offense were balanced on a 1-to-1 ratio, then Blasters would need something like a 200% base-damage buff -- and we all know that ain't gonna happen.
As before, which side of the offensive/defensive equation you favor is ultimately subjective. But you really can't go wrong with any melee character, except perhaps for a Stalker.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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The last thing that heavily tips the scale in a Tank's favour is regen/self healing. Not only do they have less damage to mitigate but they get a bigger heal because of their max HP advantage.
If the tank is taking 40 DPS and the scrapper is taking 100 DPS, the tanker is pretty likely to regen or outheal that amount and so essentially take nothing, while the scrapper is still taking >60 or 70 DPS. Then you say "what is the ratio of survivability under this situation? 60/0... oh"
I'd say extreme examples are going to be Willpower which mitigates huge damage by its regen, Inv with Dull Pain permanently up, but just about every tank has a self heal that is very significant.
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Actually I'd go so far as to say the HP factor is the biggest difference between scrappers/brutes and tankers, especially since there aren't too many outside buffs that boost HP. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
The last thing that heavily tips the scale in a Tank's favour is regen/self healing. Not only do they have less damage to mitigate but they get a bigger heal because of their max HP advantage.
If the tank is taking 40 DPS and the scrapper is taking 100 DPS, the tanker is pretty likely to regen or outheal that amount and so essentially take nothing, while the scrapper is still taking >60 or 70 DPS. Then you say "what is the ratio of survivability under this situation? 60/0... oh" I'd say extreme examples are going to be Willpower which mitigates huge damage by its regen, Inv with Dull Pain permanently up, but just about every tank has a self heal that is very significant. |
Though I won't lie, given the current content I actually think tanks are not all that useful. I can't think of very many situations in which a brute wouldn't be better from a pure powergame perspective.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
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Originally Posted by Tsuji
Actually I'd go so far as to say the HP factor is the biggest difference between scrappers/brutes and tankers, especially since there aren't too many outside buffs that boost HP.
Though I won't lie, given the current content I actually think tanks are not all that useful. I can't think of very many situations in which a brute wouldn't be better from a pure powergame perspective. |
I'm not sure I agree with this assessment.
I18, I19, and the upcoming I20 have been very kind to tankers, while brutes have been trimmed back.
Access to the powerful defense and debuff laden patron pools is a HUGE boost for tanker usefulness.
Adding 300+ hitpoints added ten percent to ALL tanker build heals and regens, across the board.
Bruising is HUGE. A free 20 percent resist debuff? What team will turn that down against +4 AV's and worse?
No, tankers don't do as much damage against the minor junk as brutes and scrappers do. Brutes and scrappers are like reaping machines, blazing through the lightweight stuff fast and deadly.
But Tanks are like crowbars. Against the truly heavy foes, I'd argue they have plenty of usefulness that goes far beyond simple durability and aggro-handling.
And I expect the Dev's are going to have plenty of ever-nastier baddies for us soon enough: The new level-shifting mechanic in Incarnate has LOTS of potential.
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Hey, I like that! |
Originally Posted by mauk2
But Tanks are like crowbars. Against the truly heavy foes, I'd argue they have plenty of usefulness that goes far beyond simple durability and aggro-handling.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I am not sure if you guys can talk about it or not yet but I was wondering if the new content is more requiring of a true tanker?
Tanker 1874.1 3534
Brute 1499.3 3212.7
Scrapper 1338.6 2409.5
I am still on that 3 sided pyramid. Tank, Brute or Scrapper.
Bit more informed now than what I was 30 days ago but still go back and fourth.
Scrapper and brute
Scrapper Electric/shield can clear out a mob of 12 in like 1.5 seconds. so he needs to tank a boss or two while the rest of the dps burns them down.
Brute could do stone armor and do massive damage and have the advantage to enter granite for major tanking.
Both offer awesome dps and both can reach 45% defense with 75 resist I think.
Scrapper 1.125? has 500 cap plus crits. Lower hit points compared to brute and tanker
So if I take a base 100 damage power from the scrapper and compare it to the other two classes would it look like something below? (max damage)
100*5=500 Plus 10% crit. (dont know how to do the math)
Brute 0.750 has 675 cap Fury for what 150% extra damage,
75*6.75=506
Tank 0.800 has a 400 cap,
80*4=320
What I cant calculate or even find is the amount of haste/recharge a tanker could get over the other two due to the fact that the other two have to play IO catch up on the defense/recharge/hit points.
so even if the tank is at a disadvantage with the first hit with enough recharge he may be able to catch up. I just don't know enough about the game to know if that is possible.
So if all three are at 45% defense plus or minus a few plus or minus a few on DDR ( I understand there is a slight difference between the 3)
Scrapper and brute are at 75 resist
Tanker is at 90 resist
what is the percentage of haste needed in order to catch up (if possible) with the other two and is that percentage of the same gap as the damage to defense is?
So the damage percentage is about 150% different with the same attack its easy for a novice like me to see that number is bigger for the other two.
What is so hard to wrap my small mind around is the difference that is compared to the amount you have to sacrifice to get to a semi tanker build.
I have always played a tank or a wizard (except in UO played a tank mage their; ruined me for life) and so the very blurry lines on COH just really messes with me.
As you can tell by my basic math I am not a number cruncher I enjoy playing for fun.
What I hate is jumping in the middle of 15 mobs and seeing (insert class here) jump and wipe them out. At that point I am like awesome we have good dps. That all changes when I see that same class jump in and tank as well as me and wipe the spawn out while tanking.
Leaves me with my mouth open holding on to my mace in my hand wondering if this is right.
Anyway here is what got me started again and I am really hoping someone can put me on the right path to ease my mind.
Regarding end game content: as has been pointed out, CoH doesn't currently have much in that department. At the recent San Diego Comicon, the devs participated in a panel discussion in which they said that one of their strategic goals for Going Rogue is to add a serious end game to CoH that will have challenges that make all current high level content "look like a piece of cake" in comparison. I expect tankers to be quite popular when Going Rogue hits.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ng+good+tanker