Ninjitsu Proliferation to Scrappers/Brutes?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-10 13:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I am against any proliferation of ninjutsu unless stalkers get another awesome stalker-only set to replace it.
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O that would be cruel fun.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Smoke Flash on a Tanker would be really funny. "Okay, guys. I've got 'em herded. *PBAoE Placate*"
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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If the developers had that mind set then Tankers should never have gotten Dual Blades.
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Originally Posted by sprintstnyc
I am against any proliferation of ninjutsu unless stalkers get another awesome stalker-only set to replace it.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I want Shield on my Stalker! For an AT that lacks AoE damage, I think Shield Charge is a great secondary power. They can modify Shield for Stalker if they want to. They did for Willpower.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
If the developers had that mind set then Tankers should never have gotten Dual Blades.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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As a disclaimer, both of my VEATs are sub-level 20 and I haven't played them in quite awhile. That and this is honestly the first time I've seen it mentioned (never seen any VEATs take or use it).|
Originally Posted by Gilia
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Originally Posted by Wiccania
Guys, I think the end of the world is here. Je_saist didn't make any claims or give any advice that is obviously and demonstrably wrong.
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This. I have a dream to one day throw blinding power slotted with the confuse purple set on a mob and make them fall asleep, run in and smash the ground with my fist and make them drop. Then, they will get up and start to fight each other. Then I will laugh.
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Originally Posted by Zandock
I'll just keep waiting until I can make my SS/Nin Scrapper.
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"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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My Widow on live: TT: Assault 15% +damage, Leadership: Assault 15% +damage... and a minor difference in modifiers or endurance costs doesn't make them different powers in any meaningful way.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
I feel I should point out that the VEAT Leadership isn't the same as Pool Leadership. Different modifiers and VEATs don't get Vengeance.
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| It's also no different than a Tank/Brute getting Taunt and Provoke, a Scrapper getting Confront and Challenge, Dark Armor/Energy Aura taking it's stealth power and Stealth, Empathy/Sonic/Pain Dom/Thermal taking mez protection and Stimulant, Regeneration/Willpower getting Fast Healing/Quick Recovery and Fitness, etc. |
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| Scrappers having two copies of Caltrops would be like Controllers, until recently, getting a second PFF in Mace Mastery if they had a FF secondary or Kheldians being able to double up on travels if they were allowed to take the pools. |
All moot anyway. As mentioned already power proliferation is bit less bound by the cottage rule.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I think Ninjitsu fits Scrappers a lot more than Tankers and Brutes. There are already several Scrapper Secondaries that have no Taunt Aura, I know from experience they work very well with Stealth, too. A Placate or Placate-like capability could be useful to a Scrapper, but would not be to a Tanker or Brute, obviously.
On the other hand, stealth itself does not in any way adversely effect a Tanker or Brute, as Dark Armor proves. So there is nothing wrong with giving Ninjitsu a generic stealth power, similar to Cloaking Device. It would lack the critical capability of Hide, of course, but that is an aspect of the Stalker AT, not of stealth in general.
Blinding Powder is also an extremely effective damage mitigation power that would be quite useful on a Tanker or Brute. It is not "unique to Stalkers" or "specifically designed for Stalkers", other ATs have similar powers such as Seeds of Confusion or Smoke Grenade. Few meleers have Confusion or -Perception, but certainly Dark has -Acc, and Fear effects which are similar to Confusion.
That leaves Caltrops. Obviously, that is a problem, because it does collide with Weapon Mastery, but it could be replaced with something. Possibly, something simple like Quickness from Super Reflexes (and Electric Armor) I've often felt that Caltrops was sort of the converse of Quickness, instead of making yourself faster, you make your foe slower.
Smoke Flash I think is the major conflict, Scrappers could use it as is, or replace the Placate effect with a disorient. Really, the most obvious purpose of Smoke Flash is as a situational escape power, you hit Smoke Flash, and then hightail it out of there. A -ToHit or -Perception is out, as Blinding Powder already covers that role, but a short duration Disorient, say something like Peacebringers' Pulsar, would neither be overpowered nor too weak a replacement for Smoke Flash's use on Stalkers as an extra Critical opportunity.
For Brutes or Tankers, assuming it was even proliferated to them in the first place, it would probably need to be a Taunt aura. Possibly something that debuffs the foe, similar to a weaker Rise to the Challenge, or Against All Odds, or even a combination of the debuffs from both, without the buffs. (You could say the Ninja can block attacks with bracers on his arms, giving -Dam, and intimidate giving -Acc) It would really be the opposite of Smoke Flash, though, instead of Placating it would Taunt.
I honestly don't think the concept of Ninjitsu fits a Brute or Tanker, they are about force, not cunning and finesse. OTOH, I've often thought Super Reflexes is a bit too one-dimensional for Tankers, and the concept could be changed, to something like Tech or Gadget Armor. Basically, agility combined with "wonderful toys". I wouldn't be disappointed if only Scrappers and Stalkers got Ninjitsu, but I could see the potential in Proliferating it elsewhere.
And as for those who say, "If Stalkers lose Ninjitsu, they should get something else unique", let me just ask you to name the one unique Power Set either Scrappers or Brutes get. Sure, Tankers get Ice Armor, but only because Brutes had issues with Ice in Beta. And honestly, I think Ice Armor would be a perfect fit for Stalkers.
I think now that we can play the different ATs everywhere, there is no need to proliferate everything. If you want a Ninja, make a stalker.
@Joshua.
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No. Allow me to quote myself from earlier in the thread:|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I think now that we can play the different ATs everywhere, there is no need to proliferate everything. If you want a Ninja, make a stalker.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
I don't know about anyone else, but for me the reasons I'd prefer to play a /nin scrapper instead of a /nin stalker are:
1: I can start as a hero instead of having to spend 20 levels in praetoria or the rogue isles first. The concept for the character I want to use it for doesn't fit with starting in praetoria or the isles. 2: Looser build. Not as much of a problem now that inherent stamina is coming (THANK YOU DEVS!), but stalkers are still tied into a bunch of extra powers that scrappers aren't. Since the reason I'd be playing the character is for the *powerset* rather than the AT, I'd rather play it on the AT where I don't need to take all that extra stuff. (This is a bigger issue than it might seem. /Nin is perfect for the tricky-style natural fighter who might be stealthy but isn't necessarily an assassin. There are a fairly wide array of concepts that would fit a /nin scrapper much better than a /nin stalker.) 3: I want the scrapper version of the primary. In general, I don't like the stalker sets' loss of AoE in favor of (usually redundant) extra ST damage Especially for my chosen primary, martial arts, which already has plenty of good ST attacks but gives up its only AoE in the stalker version. (I also hate the idea of waiting until 18 and 26 for cobra and crane, given that I heartily dislike both animations for CaK.) |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I used to be a proponent for full proliferation of all sets, but now I see the value of keeping some sets unique to certain ATs, especially now that ats are not restricted to red or blue side. Having said that, I'd love to see ninjitsu ported to scrappers, its a really fun set to play - sadly it's only available on an AT that imo is severely underperforming vs competing ats. And to address the 'problem' with having access to the same power twice, couldn't they just have the duplicate power 'greyed out' or simply left out of the power selection screen if it is taken already from another set of powers?
I could see scrappers getting ninjitsu, but I dont see tankers and brutes getting it in the future. IMO it just doesnt fit the brute and tanker theme since they both dont have ninja blades. I know they have Dual Blades, but all the other powers like War Mace, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, etc... would not look right.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
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Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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Yea, I would definitely like to see */Nin for Scrappers, but not sure about wanting it on Brutes or Tankers, almost doesn't fit the theme for them, especially Tankers.|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
I could see scrappers getting ninjitsu, but I dont see tankers and brutes getting it in the future. IMO it just doesnt fit the brute and tanker theme since they both dont have ninja blades. I know they have Dual Blades, but all the other powers like War Mace, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, etc... would not look right.
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*/Nin for Scraps all the way tho.
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They have /Dark Armor so they should get /Nin.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Yea, I would definitely like to see */Nin for Scrappers, but not sure about wanting it on Brutes or Tankers, almost doesn't fit the theme for them, especially Tankers.
*/Nin for Scraps all the way tho. |
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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I posted earlier that Blinding Powder is simple enough to change to a cone confusion. Or better yet, a cone disorient with chance of confusion. Remove the to-hit and perception debuff. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Blinding Powder is also an extremely effective damage mitigation power that would be quite useful on a Tanker or Brute. It is not "unique to Stalkers" or "specifically designed for Stalkers", other ATs have similar powers such as Seeds of Confusion or Smoke Grenade. Few meleers have Confusion or -Perception, but certainly Dark has -Acc, and Fear effects which are similar to Confusion.
That leaves Caltrops. Obviously, that is a problem, because it does collide with Weapon Mastery, but it could be replaced with something. Possibly, something simple like Quickness from Super Reflexes (and Electric Armor) I've often felt that Caltrops was sort of the converse of Quickness, instead of making yourself faster, you make your foe slower. Smoke Flash I think is the major conflict, Scrappers could use it as is, or replace the Placate effect with a disorient. Really, the most obvious purpose of Smoke Flash is as a situational escape power, you hit Smoke Flash, and then hightail it out of there. A -ToHit or -Perception is out, as Blinding Powder already covers that role, but a short duration Disorient, say something like Peacebringers' Pulsar, would neither be overpowered nor too weak a replacement for Smoke Flash's use on Stalkers as an extra Critical opportunity. For Brutes or Tankers, assuming it was even proliferated to them in the first place, it would probably need to be a Taunt aura. Possibly something that debuffs the foe, similar to a weaker Rise to the Challenge, or Against All Odds, or even a combination of the debuffs from both, without the buffs. (You could say the Ninja can block attacks with bracers on his arms, giving -Dam, and intimidate giving -Acc) It would really be the opposite of Smoke Flash, though, instead of Placating it would Taunt. |
Change Smoke Flash to Smoke Grenade as Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers don't need a placate power. This gives the set back the debuffs taken from Blinding Powder.
The other issues left are caltrops and no taunt aura. That's if the logical change of hide to a generic stealth defense toggle is made. The order placement of caltrops is the perfect location for a taunt aura in the powerset, but what exactly this power should be as it would require an entirely new power is what I believe would be the major hold up. Which also takes into consideration that the devs aren't looking to change out the previously mentioned powers even more if the set were to be proliferated.
Hmmm, not sure this could be ported without causing a lot of headaches. It's specifically a stalker set and would need to have powers added to it to be effective for other ATs... a tall order considering how potent the set already is.
I think you will have better luck asking for a ninja-themed APP then a ninjitsu port.
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Oh really? Being that only stalkers have it I'd say yeah, it's both unique to them and designed with them in mind. It has both a confuse and sleep component on top of -to hit and -perception... hardly a clone of seeds or smoke grenade as you seem to suggest.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Blinding Powder is also an extremely effective damage mitigation power that would be quite useful on a Tanker or Brute. It is not "unique to Stalkers" or "specifically designed for Stalkers"
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I'm not going to say no because stalkers NEED something unique.
I'm going to say no because ninjitsu is an assassin focused set with tools specifically designed around mitigating aggro in an active manner. Not mitigating damage, mitigating aggro. The set is specifically loaded with multiple tools to assist the /nin stalker in regaining hidden status.
While these tools can serve as effective general mitigation, ninjitsu without proper hide loses the entire point. Look around scrapper sets and you're not going to find any with a focus on aggro mitigation. Scrappers are straight up fighters, and scrapper sets reflect this fact.
A scrapper port of the set may be functional, but the set itself would lose every aspect of what makes /nin the set that it is without the Stalker's inherant. Ninjitsu is an odd set that way, like Ice Armor for tanks, it's a set that simply doesn't WORK thematically or in practice on another AT.
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It's unique to them only because no one else has it. It's a circular argument. You're saying only Stalkers should have Ninjitsu because it is unique to them, and Ninjitsu is unique to Stalkers because only they have it. |
Originally Posted by Person34
Oh really? Being that only stalkers have it I'd say yeah, it's both unique to them and designed with them in mind. It has both a confuse and sleep component on top of -to hit and -perception... hardly a clone of seeds or smoke grenade as you seem to suggest.
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Speaking of Seeds of Confusion, would you say that it was designed with Dominators in mind? At the time it was created, only Dominators had it. Would you say that Chain Induction was designed with Brutes in mind? At the time it was created, only Brutes had it. Would you say that Hibernate was designed with Tankers in mind? At the time it was created, only Tankers had it. Would you say that Dark Miasma was designed with Defenders in mind? At the time it was created, only Defenders had it.
Dark Melee has a -tohit in every attack, and Dark Armor has -tohit in Cloak of Fear, plus stealth in Cloak of Darkness. So there's certainly nothing wrong with Scrappers getting -tohit or -perception. Electric Melee has a sleep in every attack, plus Scrappers get access to even stronger mez effects, like stun and hold. So there's nothing wrong with sleep, either.
The only thing Scrappers do NOT currently get is confuse; and usually, non-control ATs that DO get confuse only get it in one Power Set anyway. World of Confusion is found in only one Blaster Secondary, and only in Psychic Mastery for Defenders. It seems to me it is not Blinding Powder that is unique, it is the confuse effect. And perhaps if Scrappers do not have a confuse effect yet, they should have one.
This wouldn't even be an issue if Scrappers had some sort of psychic APP with Confuse in it, because I'd then be able to point to it and say, "That's already available as well". Sure, there isn't one power, other than Blinding Powder, that combines all those effects. But can you really say that a CONTROL power, which is supposed to be the speciality of Controllers and Dominators, is intended specifically for Stalkers? Especially when Ninjitsu doesn't even HAVE that many control powers in it. The majority of the powers are defensive, as you would expect for the Stalker concept.
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Power Sets do not reflect AT functionality. Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers all share the same Power Sets. Scrappers do not have sets that are more melee focused, Tankers do not have sets that are more defense focused, Brutes do not have sets that are more focused on building Fury. There may be sets that fit those descriptions, but each of the ATs get access to sets that do not match that specialization either. |
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
Look around scrapper sets and you're not going to find any with a focus on aggro mitigation. Scrappers are straight up fighters, and scrapper sets reflect this fact.
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Scrappers and Stalkers share Dark Armor, Electrical Armor, Regeneration, Super Reflexes and Willpower. Scrappers get Fiery Aura, Shield and Invulnerability, while Stalkers get Energy Aura and Ninjitsu. There is nothing about those three Scrapper sets that are specifically reflective of "straight up fighting", and all three are shared with Tankers and Brutes.
And when you get right down to it, the only power in Ninjitsu that is designed for "aggro mitigation" is Smoke Flash. Blinding Powder does not mitigate aggro any more than Cloak of Fear does. (Or putting it another way, Cloak of Fear mitigates aggro as much as Smoke Flash does) At best, the aggro is mitigated because the foe cannot attack the caster. But any mez power does that. 6 powers in Ninjitsu do not mitigate aggro in any way.
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| A scrapper port of the set may be functional, but the set itself would lose every aspect of what makes /nin the set that it is without the Stalker's inherant. Ninjitsu is an odd set that way, like Ice Armor for tanks, it's a set that simply doesn't WORK thematically or in practice on another AT. |
The main thing is, there is NOTHING stopping Ice Armor from being ported to Stalkers. It would be a great Stalker set, outside of Icicles, which could be replaced by something without a taunt aura. Chilling Embrace would be GREAT for Stalkers, now that Hide suppresses auras, it would not draw any aggro while in Hide, and would slow foes after the Stalker attacks and prevent them from running away.
So just to start with, your assertion that Ice Armor wouldn't work with another AT is wrong. It could be proliferated to Scrappers and Stalkers, and probably will be. Second, as I said, 6 of the 9 powers in Ninjitsu wouldn't need to be changed for Scrappers at all. (Caltrops you don't have to change, just eliminate the duplication) Scrappers have Cloak of Darkness, so giving them stealth is not out of the question, and Smoke Flash could be replaced with something more appropriate to Scrappers.
It all comes down to Blinding Powder. That's what your whole argument is about. And if Blinding Powder is less useful to Scrappers, then who cares? Scrapper Ninjtsu will still have Stealth/Cloaking Device, it will still have Kuji-In Sha, and it will still (hopefully) be a gadget-based variant of Super Reflexes. THAT, more than assassin strikes and aggro management, is to me the aspect that makes Ninjitsu what it is.
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I know it's unique because it's stalker-only, hence why I used the term:|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It's unique to them only because no one else has it. It's a circular argument..and Ninjitsu is unique to Stalkers because only they have it
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u·nique (y-nk) KEY
ADJECTIVE:
Being the only one of its kind.
Twisting words around in no way changes this.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
You're saying only Stalkers should have Ninjitsu because it is unique to them
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Speaking of Seeds of Confusion, would you say that it was designed with Dominators in mind? At the time it was created, only Dominators had it. Would you say that Chain Induction was designed with Brutes in mind? At the time it was created, only Brutes had it. Would you say that Hibernate was designed with Tankers in mind? At the time it was created, only Tankers had it. Would you say that Dark Miasma was designed with Defenders in mind? At the time it was created, only Defenders had it.
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But ninjitsu CAN NOT be directly ported to scrappers, or tanks, or brutes in its current state. Hide would have to be removed and caltrops would have to be addressed, so a lot of changes and testing would be involved to make sure that the already top stalker defensive performer doesn't go over-the-top if ported... esp when folks (you being one) are suggesting power replacements such as "quickness", arguably the best melee passive in the game. And with a few short keystokes ninjitsu turns into the "uberset"...
And will tankers (who 'tank' and draw aggro), brutes (who want aggro for fury) and scrappers (who live for fighting) ever even use smoke flash or blinding powder? Thematically they are cool and all but of what use are they really for these ATs? With all the suggested changes to ninjitsu's powers it ceases to be ninjitsu. Which is another reason why to suggest an APP instead.
I'll agree with the original poster that it would be cool to have for scrappers (give brutes katana and I'll agree there as well), but as is it will require a lot of work. I don't think it will ever happen personally, but blindly arguing for the sake of arguing does nothing to help make this a reality. And that's what you seem to be doing.
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You know, I didn't really even notice, but you're right. Je_saist's post was actually somewhat reasonable for a change. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but there was nothing actually incorrect in it this time. |
Originally Posted by Wiccania
Guys, I think the end of the world is here. Je_saist didn't make any claims or give any advice that is obviously and demonstrably wrong. |
Smoke Flash and Caltrops would have to go if ported to scrappers. Smoke Flash would have to go if ported to brutes. And I really don't see it ever getting ported to tanks at all, for much the same reason stalkers didn't get shields: Thematic inconsistency.
The AT that is designed to piss things off while being very visible probably won't be getting a set that works best when stealthed. Dark Armor is a bit odd in that regard, bit Cloak of Darkness doesn't seem to affect agro generation much at all.
Personally, I'd like to see stalkers keep the set as exclusively theirs, but it could be workable on other ATs. Actually I'd like to see every AT have a set that is exclusively theirs, but I doubt that is going to happen at this point, since so many sets have been proliferated already.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's not quite fair. He does make good posts as well as ones that are incorrect. There's been quite a few this week and last which were pretty much bang on. |
Originally Posted by Wiccania
Sorry if this is off topic but all the good arguments are already used. However I just had to note.
Guys, I think the end of the world is here. Je_saist didn't make any claims or give any advice that is obviously and demonstrably wrong. |
The problem is when he is wrong there's a combination of "Absolutely wrong with no acknowledgement of it afterwards" plus the whole "I am better than you" and the "the clique is after me" attitudes.
Everyone makes mistakes. The thing is to be gracious about them and learn from them, not either ignore the correction or start waffling on about "forumite cliques hounding me even though I'm better than the rest of you".
I'm wrong all the time. I LIKE being corrected if I am, it gives me a better understanding of the game mechanics and how people use them and like to play their characters.
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I'm not twisting words around, I'm pointing out that Plant Control, Electric Melee, and Dark Miasma were at one time unique AND NOW THEY AREN'T ANY MORE. Ice Armor is still unique, but Hibernate is not (plenty of ATs get access to Hibernate) and there is nothing inherently special about Ice Armor that suggests that it will STAY unique. |
Originally Posted by Person34
I know it's unique because it's stalker-only, hence why I used the term:
u·nique (y-nk) KEY ADJECTIVE: Being the only one of its kind. Twisting words around in no way changes this. |
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| I never said it should be stalker only, I just said it is a set specific to stalkers (which it is) and hinted at the idea that other melee ATs probably should get instead an APP due to the work involved tweaking the set for proliferation. |
You are also not doing a very good job of avoiding the defense of that position. You suggest giving a Scrapper an APP instead. Why should a Scrapper get an APP DEFENSE? Scrappers already get an APP which has a gadget theme, it is called Weapon Mastery. Caltrops is already in it. Had Blinding Powder existed at the time, it might have been in it. And this would cause even MORE conflicts with Proliferating Ninjitsu.
And what "work" is involved in tweaking the set for Proliferation? The replacement of two powers, and possible adjustment of another. Stalkers have gotten more tweaks than that in every single Primary and Secondary they have gotten. If anything, adapting Ninjitsu to Scrappers should be merely the reversal of adapting a standard Defense Set to Stalkers.
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| Except, ya know, ninjitsu is -unique- to stalkers (see above definition if you have forgotten what this means). At the time these sets or powers were put into the game proliferation was not even on the map, so hard to say what they had in mind. Controllers got seeds of confusion and plant control because the powers were a -direct- port during proliferation, as with tanks/scrappers getting elec armor and elec melee from brutes. |
You're arguing terminology, but the posts I was responding to had claimed that Ninjitsu should be unique to Stalkers because there is something inherent about Stalkers that makes Ninjitsu specific to them. That is what I meant by "Ninjitsu is not unique to Stalkers". Ninjitsu is a Defense Set. That means it serves the same purpose as all other Defense Sets, it mitigates damage for the AT that has it. And EVERY power in Ninjitsu, whether it eliminates aggro or not, has that effect, whether it's the main intended effect or a secondary one.
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| Hide would have to be removed |
It will need a new name, but there don't need to be any changes to it. Unless you can explain exactly what you think would be wrong with the power on a Scrapper.
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| and caltrops would have to be addressed, so a lot of changes and testing would be involved to make sure that the already top stalker defensive performer doesn't go over-the-top if ported... |
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| esp when folks (you being one) are suggesting power replacements such as "quickness", arguably the best melee passive in the game. And with a few short keystokes ninjitsu turns into the "uberset"... |
I'll also point out that if your argument is that Ninjitsu would be too "uber" on any other AT, that counters the argument made by others that Ninjitsu would fail to function on any other AT. Both arguments appear to me to be guesswork.
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| And will tankers (who 'tank' and draw aggro), brutes (who want aggro for fury) and scrappers (who live for fighting) ever even use smoke flash or blinding powder? |
Scrappers, however, should not have any conceptual conflict with Smoke Flash. I would eliminate it simply because it would not really be useful. A Scrapper doesn't need to hold aggro to be effective, though, and not all Scrappers can tank well.
And Blinding Powder should be no more detrimental to a Brute's Fury than Cloak of Fear or Oppressive Gloom. Heck, even a Tanker should be able to use it. Blinding Powder DOES NOT CAUSE YOU TO LOSE AGGRO. It transfers the attacks to an enemy target, but once the Confuse ends and the foe goes back to attacking the team, IT GOES RIGHT BACK TO ATTACKING YOU IF YOU HAVE AGGRO. Smoke Flash is the only power that actually counters aggro, causing you to lose it and transfer it to another teammate.
Likewise, neither stealth nor -perception will cause you to lose aggro. The only thing visibility does it make it harder to get aggro in the first place. And even in that case, -perception is a better effect than stealth, because it'll keep the foes from aggroing on your allies as well as on you, while you're getting in position.
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| Thematically they are cool and all but of what use are they really for these ATs? With all the suggested changes to ninjitsu's powers it ceases to be ninjitsu. Which is another reason why to suggest an APP instead. |
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| but blindly arguing for the sake of arguing does nothing to help make this a reality. And that's what you seem to be doing. |
Sorry if this is off topic but all the good arguements are already used. However I just had to note.
Guys, I think the end of the world is here. Je_saist didn't make any claims or give any advice that is obviously and demonstrably wrong.