Quote:
Ya know, once you perma Energize, it really isn't that bad. a burst heal every 30 seconds, decent enough regen to stack with your already high resistance to keep you alive while you wait on the burst, and a endurance discount addon? yeah.. its nice.|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Energize is the best heal in the game >.>
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Base, it kinda sucks a lot though.
Quote:
Except That my attack chain is different. when Bill Z took a look at these he was specifically asked to limit the recharge numbers. I use Soul Mastery attacks as part of my main attack chain, both for the AoE and the High damage attack. I use them a lot. Siphon life does less damage for me than Smite, because my Smite is purpled. The comparisons would need to be recalculated. Not saying I am doing "better than the highest DPS", but I am coming at the number sideways from the way most (99%) of people do it. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I wasn't presenting assumptions about your play experience, nor style. I was merely pointing out what a top tier dark melee/invuln would do.
MG->Smite->Siphon life->Smite is the highest DPS chain a dark melee can put together, based on damage per activation. It would actually be very possible to hit with the recharge numbers your looking at. I'm sorry for assuming you were going to use your top end (as in top 1%) build to actually follow what top end (again, top 1%) players have stated to be factual evidence on how it should run. That's all I was using to state. |
Que the insults.
OK, I just got to the point where you explained that this is a concept build.
In my opinion, that means all that stuff that was discussed earlier in the thread about the market being bad or whatnot for the casual, n00b, or otherwise "disadvantaged" player is right out.
By design, there are things that are intended to take a long time to obtain. In this particular game, they are extremely optional in terms of overall performance, because there are alternate goods that are far, far easier to obtain. The main reason to chase the super rare ones is for purposes of stacking more stuff on top of what can be had for cheaper.
You've declared, outside of any optimality, that you want to have as much stuff that gives you global +recharge, literally no matter what the cost and irrespective of whether it's actually meaningfully beneficial to your character. By doing that, you have cast your net aiming for a set of goods, some of which are easily obtainable and some of which are extraordinarily hard to obtain by design.
Now, really think about that for a minute. The devs haven't deprived you of any reasonable performance here. Your goals effectively ignore performance. You're going to write them a letter calling for them to change the system because it doesn't suit what you're doing, when what you're doing lies outside of even extreme powergaming goals for your build? Do you really think they'd find that remotely convincing? You're asking them to remove the notion of long-term build goals for normal builds just so you can make an abnormal one faster. Do you really think that makes sense?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
In terms of average DPA, it's nearly impossible for me to see how Smite could do more damage than Siphon Life, unless you're understlotting SL as an attack.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Except That my attack chain is different. when Bill Z took a look at these he was specifically asked to limit the recharge numbers. I use Soul Mastery attacks as part of my main attack chain, both for the AoE and the High damage attack. I use them a lot. Siphon life does less damage for me than Smite, because my Smite is purpled. The comparisons would need to be recalculated. Not saying I am doing "better than the highest DPS", but I am coming at the number sideways from the way most (99%) of people do it.
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Smite's base damage @50 is 82.6. If you call its slotted value double, that's doing to do 165.2 points of damage.
Siphon Life has a base damage of 122.6. Mine is slotted 95% Heal, 90% damage, 60% recharge, so lets use my numbers*. That would be 232.94.
But your Smite probably has a purple proc in it. That's 107.1 damage 33% of the time. That averages out to 200.5 damage.
So yeah, if your purple proc went off every time, Smite would do more damage. But it won't. And when you have enough recharge to keep your attack chain saturated with activating attacks, DPA is the primary attribute of the attacks you care about. The average DPA on SL can be better than that even on purpled Smite.
* If you're curious, that's slotted like so: 2x Nucleous, 2x Golgi, Hecatomb: Dam/Rech, Doctored Wounds: Heal/Rech
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Different or not, its the optimal chain. Smite, by design, does less damage then Siphon life, at base numbers, yet they both animate VERY quickly that's why BOTH are included in that chain.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Except That my attack chain is different. when Bill Z took a look at these he was specifically asked to limit the recharge numbers. I use Soul Mastery attacks as part of my main attack chain, both for the AoE and the High damage attack. I use them a lot. Siphon life does less damage for me than Smite, because my Smite is purpled. The comparisons would need to be recalculated. Not saying I am doing "better than the highest DPS", but I am coming at the number sideways from the way most (99%) of people do it.
Que the insults. |
Siphon life isn't a reconstruction, it isn't a end all be all heal, and neither is dull pain. But using them effectively is what keeps you alive. From what your telling me, Your not using them effectively. Soul mastery attacks don't follow the same damage/end/recharge scale that primary attacks do. Especially the AoEs. So including them in your attack chain will drain your endurance MUCH quicker, which means your purposely causing your own end issues, to fit a concept, that needs more recharge, so that you can limit your own end issues that your causing on purpose..
Ow.. my brain hurts now.
Quote:
If you ain't injured the heal will not help. Seriously. It just will not, and the extra end/time invested gets you squat. So i lean on Smite and Gloom. If I see my Green take a little dip, sure, I hit Siphon Life. otherwise, not so much.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
If that is how you are using Siphon Life, then you are not using it in a mathematically optimal way. It is an excellent attack and a far, far higher HP/sec heal than Dull Pain.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Quoted For Truth.
If your going to get a optimal build, people then expect you to use it Optimally. If you don't, then there is 0(zero) reason to have such an optimal build. Mathematically speaking, the things you want to do, in the way you want to do them, just don't work. And that's just factoring in your play style vs your build choice. |
I run the LRSF every time I find a team of good players, or even a motivated PUG team. I will run just about any SF just about anytime, no matter what in fact. If a team is running +2/X8, sure, i'll give it a tray.
For soloing I tend to run +0/x1 (remember I said i tend to dislike farming) and am running these things for merits/badges/tips/etc. But the buildout is just my main. If you do not feel I am running it the right way. Well, I believe you feel that way.
Quote:
Thing is, Siphon life Isn't just a heal. Its a really hard hitting attack at well. If your using it as only a heal, your doing it wrong. Its just that simple. It hits harder the Smite, and actually i think its the second hardest hitting single target attack in dark melee (behind midnight grasp)
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
If you ain't injured the heal will not help. Seriously. It just will not, and the extra end/time invested gets you squat. So i lean on Smite and Gloom. If I see my Green take a little dip, sure, I hit Siphon Life. otherwise, not so much.
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Quote:
You left out activation times and end costs. These things matter. Smite does not do as much damage as Siphon life out of the box though, you are correct.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
In terms of average DPA, it's nearly impossible for me to see how Smite could do more damage than Siphon Life, unless you're understlotting SL as an attack.
Smite's base damage @50 is 82.6. If you call its slotted value double, that's doing to do 165.2 points of damage. Siphon Life has a base damage of 122.6. Mine is slotted 95% Heal, 90% damage, 60% recharge, so lets use my numbers*. That would be 232.94. But your Smite probably has a purple proc in it. That's 107.1 damage 33% of the time. That averages out to 200.5 damage. So yeah, if your purple proc went off every time, Smite would do more damage. But it won't. And when you have enough recharge to keep your attack chain saturated with activating attacks, DPA is the primary attribute of the attacks you care about. The average DPA on SL can be better than that even on purpled Smite. * If you're curious, that's slotted like so: 2x Nucleous, 2x Golgi, Hecatomb: Dam/Rech, Doctored Wounds: Heal/Rech |
Quote:
Three things:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
If you ain't injured the heal will not help. Seriously. It just will not, and the extra end/time invested gets you squat. So i lean on Smite and Gloom. If I see my Green take a little dip, sure, I hit Siphon Life. otherwise, not so much.
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1. The heal in SL is "free". The recharge and endurance costs for the attack were not increased above the standard for a 1.96 damage scale attack.
2. As Arbegla mentioned Epic Pool Attacks use different balancing metrics compared to other attacks. Gloom does less damage than SL but has the same end cost and a longer recharge.
3. They aren't suggesting you use SL as a heal but as an attack that happens to heal you (although as Uberguy mentioned you can do both)
Quote:
sounds to me like your conceptual build is equal to buying a Bugatti Veron to go to the shops for milk tbh.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I run the LRSF every time I find a team of good players, or even a motivated PUG team. I will run just about any SF just about anytime, no matter what in fact. If a team is running +2/X8, sure, i'll give it a tray.
For soloing I tend to run +0/x1 (remember I said i tend to dislike farming) and am running these things for merits/badges/tips/etc. But the buildout is just my main. If you do not feel I am running it the right way. Well, I believe you feel that way. |
If I was spending billions on a build I'd want to make sure the payback would be substantial, ie: being able to do some of the hardest AV/GMs solo, or running at the highest possible settings. This would also help towards offsetting the cost of the build.
But hey its your toon and your concept, I just don't see how that justifies complaining about IO costs, thats like complaining to the Bugatti dealer that his Veron is too expensive for said shopping trip.
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
Okay, it has been fun. Really, part of it has. I have learned things. One of the things is how many posts can be written that I never learn things.
The topic has switched to my build, which should really be hashed out in the Brutes forum. If any of you want to join me there my build from one respec ago is posted there. It has only changed by adding a PvP set, and another minor change or two.
If anyone wants to discuss market pricing they can continue in this thread. THis will probably be my last post here. The discussion is trending downwards, and the general volume of insults is increasing again.
Good luck to you all in you builds and treasure hunting.
Yay! We won! Do we get a badge?
did I say something wrong?
*sniffs armpits and checks breath*
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
Quote:
*passes out*
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Originally Posted by Scene_EU
did I say something wrong?
*sniffs armpits and checks breath* |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
i would love to participate in his dm/inv brute thread but i couldn't find one at all. seeing as how my 1st vill was a dm/inv i would have much to add to the discussion. B_C might not like it, but hey, no one ever said the truth was a fluffy pillow.....
edit: nvmd. he must have posted it while i was writting this lol.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Yay! We won! Do we get a badge?
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
It's worth using as an attack whether you're hurt or not.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
If you ain't injured the heal will not help. Seriously. It just will not, and the extra end/time invested gets you squat. So i lean on Smite and Gloom. If I see my Green take a little dip, sure, I hit Siphon Life. otherwise, not so much.
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I'm talking about it as a heal because you claimed you wanted the heal from Dull Pain back faster. If you care about the heal from Dull Pain, you should care about the heal from Siphon Life more. If you don't care about heals from Siphon Life, then getting massive recharge for Dull Pain cannot be an imperative.
I am totally fine with you having concept stuff that isn't optimal. But you keep making objective statements in defense of your choices or builds, and that stuff contains factual errors. If you really don't care at all about the performance stuff, that's fine, but don't try to use incorrect statements of what's optimal to defend it, or people will try and correct you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Yep, I sure did. I blame posting right out of bed. (I stayed home sick today, and actually laid back down after posting that.)|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
You left out activation times and end costs. These things matter. Smite does not do as much damage as Siphon life out of the box though, you are correct.
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Properly including activation and Arcanatime, the DPA would be:
Smite: appox 242
Siphon Life: approx 151 (based on my slotting)
The real irony in me leaving that out is that I have an Excel spreadsheet with the calculations in it on my desktop, used for building attack chains for my DM/Regen.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
How sad we were less than 10 replies from making this the #1 most replied post in this forum and everyone just stops 
Quote:
Sticky this plz|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
How sad we were less than 10 replies from making this the #1 most replied post in this forum and everyone just stops
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
That is unfortunate!|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
How sad we were less than 10 replies from making this the #1 most replied post in this forum and everyone just stops
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Oooo, content...
TL; DR - I've started trying to make money in the last ~ 2 months. I'm now a tribillionnaire, and I'm only casually trying. Want Purples? They're doable. Time-consuming, though.
Quote:
Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
How sad we were less than 10 replies from making this the #1 most replied post in this forum and everyone just stops
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
Gratz! |
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
I'm now a tribillionnaire, and I'm only casually trying.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
^/sarcasm
Siphon life will do more to keep him alive then perma Dull Pain would.. getting him to realize that is that hard part.