Origins Pack - Natural Auras and Capes
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2010-11-03 17:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You are wrong. The wording of the descriptions may be like this, but the wording of the descriptions is older than the game itself, and has been proven to be inaccurate when Natural was extended to read:
 They are called "something-human" because it's the only non-stupid thing to call them, and because the phrasing was written into the game before someone woke up and realised how limiting this was. It could have been Jack, because his was the statement that Superman would be of the Natural origin here, and he's not human. Not to mention that the description of the Natural origin itself says "or perhaps you are not human at all." The world of City of Heroes is far too densely populated with aliens, extra-dimensional travellers and extra-planar creatures to divide characters into human and non-human. "Alien" is not a legitimate origin, because the origin describes where the character's POWER originates, not where the character himself comes from. A person in power armour is of the Technology origin not because he IS technology, but because he USES technology. His powers are what is technology, not the person himself. To say a character should be of an "Alien" origin just because he's not from Earth is unintuitive, especially when that "alien" may be not too dissimilar from humans and instead use human technology. Or, hell, even magic. What, Earth is the only place magic exists? You just quoted the single biggest piece of garbage in the entire game, Guy. This is by leaps and bounds the worst story this entire game has ever seen, and I'm counting the retcon to make Ubelmann's story about someone's grandma. I'm counting "The Statesman's head is so big that two of them can't exist in the same dimension." angle. I'm counting being sent to appear at a sci-fi convention in an abandoned warehouse in Crey's Folly. The Origin of Powers takes the cake, hands down. And it's quite obvious someone up top agrees, because we have never gotten an expansion on this storyline ever since, and it's been long enough. How much do you want to bet that, come Incarnates, they'll be explained as something OTHER than another origin? More importantly, the contacts themselves are full of hot air, and they are written to be. Sister psyche babbles about there being no mutants since before the splitting of the atom... And then admits there actually were. Only they weren't mutants, they were psions or whatever that was. So what about all the mutants since before that that weren't psychic? Furthermore, Virgil Tarikoss will tell you that humans "invented" magic and taught it to the gods while War Witch will tell you that the gods "invented" magic and taught it to humans. Positron will make an *** of himself by spinning theories of how we are all tied by an ethereal power of technology that people tap into when they invent things, pretty much taking a huge dump on what could otherwise have been pretty cool concepts, and Leon Brass eats people like me for breakfast, I assume saving people like himself for lunch and dinner. --- Origins are intentionally left vague so as to be subject to interpretation, bound only by what they CAN mean, and never by what they CAN'T mean. |
And that is where the "Natural Alien" idea stops. Everywhere else in-game assumes a Natural Human Origin. Even in that very same description, your natural alien gets a throwing knife...go figure.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Aliens can't have knives?
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
And that is where the "Natural Alien" idea stops. Everywhere else in-game assumes a Natural Human Origin. Even in that very same description, your natural alien gets a throwing knife...go figure.
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Nope, only Australians.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Aliens can't have knives?
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[Points at Universal's ET.] "That's not an alien."
[Pulls Geiger's creation out] "Now THAT's an alien."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The problem, then, isn't that there's no alien origin, it's that that character concept is too specific for what would normally be an acceptable level of assumptions that the game's story has to take.| Everywhere else in-game assumes a Natural Human Origin. |
Rewriting the game's code just so all the text can differentiate human from not-really-human would be silly, too. You still wouldn't have equal representation for machines, fantasy creatures, magical beings, monsters, etc.
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Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
The problem, then, isn't that there's no alien origin, it's that that character concept is too specific for what would normally be an acceptable level of assumptions that the game's story has to take.
Rewriting the game's code just so all the text can differentiate human from not-really-human would be silly, too. You still wouldn't have equal representation for machines, fantasy creatures, magical beings, monsters, etc. |
No one said anything bout rewriting all the text in-game, just maybe the text that make note of a characters specific origin. I think you will find them few and far between.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I just wanted to chime in with my opinion that I see zero need for an alien origin. And actually think it goes against the nature of the origins themselves...
I don't see the origins as being human-centric at all. I am not sure how/why that has been brought to the table (Just because of certain story arcs?).
The origins are based on where a character's power comes from and/or how the character's power is achieved.
We all know that some characters could technically be a number of origins... one example being mutants who use technology... blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. and you just have to choose which one is the greater aspect of their power or which one you think represents the character best.
Besides that the Natural Origin clearly states that the character's powers may just be a part of that race's natural abilities...
The idea of an alien origin seems entirely odd to me as, the way I see things, humans can be aliens too.
That, of course, is because I do not see things from a human-centric view at all.
One last thing... It is my opinion that the write-ups for the Origins at character creation hold more validity than anything else in the game simply because that is there for anyone and everyone to read before they even enter the game.
This is the information chosen to be the explanation.
Anything else that may contradict it, to me, would easily be inconsistencies that come from a multitude of writers and diverging ideas/concepts... a natural element of large collective collaborative projects.
The again... I truly don't care much about these specifics, as broad baselines and such are far better for fitting everyone's creative imaginations into a collective without shunting or limiting things too much.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I'm gonna have to make a point against this.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
None of which lets most of us punch holes in cement walls, or emit fire or beams of energy from our hands. Not without resorting to tools (arguably technology) or modification of your body (arguably science). |
When you say humans, do you mean, humans as we are now IRL, or humans in a comic book physics/biology/chemistry using universe?
We have people IRL who can get kicked in the groin without flinching or doubling over, who can rest on spears or have concrete smashed onto them or break concrete with their bare hands. An Eastern story trope, especially in Japanese manga, is the manifestation of Ki to unleash blasts. These are highly trained humans doing that (Ryu from Street Fighter, as an example.)
Some might say that's magic origin, but is it? The power is coming from inside them, harnessing their own life force and spiritual energy to do so. That gives you perfectly human characters who, through intense training and discipline, have been able to unleash blasts of energy and pull off feats that even some metahumans would be incapable of.
Suspension of disbelief works wonders. As does making generalized game mechanics suit a character. A friennd of mine has HP represent the character's luck for dodging attacks. When their luck, literally, runs out, they get hit seriously enough to take them down. One of my characters uses HP as a telekinetic shield, that depletes when hit, replenishes over time and she can use powers to boost that shield (such as Drain Psyche for the +Regen)
Lastly, say we did add Alien Orign.
What about people who go "I want a robot origin!"? There's then a precedent and people will complain and pester for that. Then someone goes "I want a psychic origin!" and "I want an elf origin!" and "I want a ghost origin!" or "I want a cyborg origin!" and so on and so forth.
A system that worked then becomes bogged down with all these other origins that are frankly unneeded when, as has been said before, the basic 5 cover it fine. You don't want your Natural 'Alien' using throwing knives?
... Don't use them? Take the power off the tray and never use it. That's what I do for mutant characters who wouldn't be seen throwing that toxic thing, or science characters who wouldn't use those tranq darts.
If it isn't broke, don't try to shoehorn in things just because you disagree with 'Natural' counting more than just humans.
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A ghost would be of natural origin. Doubly so if their death was the result of 'natural causes' |
Originally Posted by Zortel
"I want a ghost origin!"
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...! What a character idea that has come to me! A tech origin ghost! A Praetorian Clockwork that as a second costume has a hovering, stealthed form of a dead person, the proverbial ghost in the machine.
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
A ghost would be of natural origin. Doubly so if their death was the result of 'natural causes'
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Didn't we call him "Metronome"? | [...] the proverbial ghost in the machine. |
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All your doing is creating an artificial slippery slop.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
I'm gonna have to make a point against this.
When you say humans, do you mean, humans as we are now IRL, or humans in a comic book physics/biology/chemistry using universe? We have people IRL who can get kicked in the groin without flinching or doubling over, who can rest on spears or have concrete smashed onto them or break concrete with their bare hands. An Eastern story trope, especially in Japanese manga, is the manifestation of Ki to unleash blasts. These are highly trained humans doing that (Ryu from Street Fighter, as an example.) Some might say that's magic origin, but is it? The power is coming from inside them, harnessing their own life force and spiritual energy to do so. That gives you perfectly human characters who, through intense training and discipline, have been able to unleash blasts of energy and pull off feats that even some metahumans would be incapable of. Suspension of disbelief works wonders. As does making generalized game mechanics suit a character. A friennd of mine has HP represent the character's luck for dodging attacks. When their luck, literally, runs out, they get hit seriously enough to take them down. One of my characters uses HP as a telekinetic shield, that depletes when hit, replenishes over time and she can use powers to boost that shield (such as Drain Psyche for the +Regen) Lastly, say we did add Alien Orign. What about people who go "I want a robot origin!"? There's then a precedent and people will complain and pester for that. Then someone goes "I want a psychic origin!" and "I want an elf origin!" and "I want a ghost origin!" or "I want a cyborg origin!" and so on and so forth. A system that worked then becomes bogged down with all these other origins that are frankly unneeded when, as has been said before, the basic 5 cover it fine. You don't want your Natural 'Alien' using throwing knives? ... Don't use them? Take the power off the tray and never use it. That's what I do for mutant characters who wouldn't be seen throwing that toxic thing, or science characters who wouldn't use those tranq darts. If it isn't broke, don't try to shoehorn in things just because you disagree with 'Natural' counting more than just humans. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
The difference between Magic and Natural is clear:
If it's magic, we don't have to explain it!
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Artificial or real, people will still happily ski down them.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
All your doing is creating an artificial slippery slope.
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Ah, yes, like Warlock, who originally appeared in the New Mutants.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think it's blindingly obvious what would go in there: beings who aren't from Earth. Everything in CoH is centered around how powerful characters are relative to a human norm. After all, the term is "meta-human". Yes, it's technically valid to say an alien mutant should be classified as mutant origin*. But honestly, how often does that come up in the genre? Unless it's particularly relevant to a plot, a mutant alien is, most likely just classified as an alien. (Plenty of aliens have unusual powers for their species that a pretty much never explained at all.) In contrast, Marvel's "mutants", just one clear exemplar of the mutant origin, are clearly mutant humans.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Eh, like ID4, he's only ripping off the original master of biomechanical art, H. R. Giger, one of the greatest surrealists still alive.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
[Points at Universal's ET.] "That's not an alien."
[Pulls Geiger's creation out] "Now THAT's an alien." |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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You are wrong in your assessment that powers are measured off a human base. That's not subject to opinion, that's a statement of a pretty strong FACT, and a fact which happens to be incorrect. Once again, the Natural origin measures powers by your species, even if that species happens to not be human, as is the case with Kheldians and, indeed, the Rikti. Ever notice how many Natural enhancements the Rikti drop? I honestly don't know WHY they do, but they do.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No, Sam, I'm not wrong. You're wrong for claiming it's even possible to be wrong on this topic.
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As always, I'm not about to get in the way of anyone defining any character as any origin that they have an argument for. What gets my nether goat, however, is when people start weaving theories about why the way I define origins and the characters who fit them is not right and the game should be altered to exclude it.
Almost all of my aliens right now are Natural, one being described as having her powers by right of birth. You suggest an Alien origin which would then become the de-facto "right" origin for that character and... Then what? Toss me an origin respec so I can change the origin of my level 50 Blaster? Into something I don't actually like?
I grant everyone's right to not be "wrong" on matters of origin as long as those matters remain within the current system of origins as they exist in the game without redefining other people's concepts for them. You cross that line when you suggest how other people's concepts - by virtue of being aliens - should be defined. It may not have been your intention, it may not have been your point, you may have tried to argue around it, but at the end of the day, that's presciently what you're suggesting: We are wrong to define our aliens as Natural because that's not what Natural should be and our aliens should go in another origin altogether.
In fact, you accuse me of arguing against game setting by claiming what's said in the game isn't true because I don't like it, yet you argue against game setting far more than I do by dismissing the system of origins as they are defined and described and suggesting your own, instead. And you flip this around to make me out to be the one bringing in extraneous arguments? Come on, dude!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Everywhere else? Such as? What, throwing knives? Are we assuming aliens have to use future tech, mind control and space ships? A large percentage of my own aliens come from vastly UNDERDEVELOPED worlds of no real technology to speak of, bring powers with them that they were basically born with. One specific alien, in fact, comes from an alternate Earth where the world is hideously inhospitable and humans simply evolved to be big, tough and unkillable. Her PRIMARY POWER is an axe. How much stranger is it to have a throwing knife?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
And that is where the "Natural Alien" idea stops. Everywhere else in-game assumes a Natural Human Origin. Even in that very same description, your natural alien gets a throwing knife...go figure.
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What else? Enhancements? The ones named after training disciplines and techniques? Why, are aliens precluded from knowing martial arts, being disciplined or training? Why does everyone always assume that just because a character is alien and born with certain powers, that this character has never had to train, persevere or practice to perfection? If we can assume that a person can train his body to gain greater physical strength, higher endurance and stronger bones, then why can a person who already has the ability to shoot energy out of his hands not train to shoot more energy out of his hands faster and with greater precision without exhausting himself? You don't need to be human to train.
What else? The origin of powers arcs? Both of the characters who talk about the Natural origin are natural humans, so obviously they'll speak about their own experiences. But the origin of powers contacts are provably wrong, and not just because I don't like what they're saying. They contradict each other on numerous occasions. Suppose that instead of Manticore, Percy Winkley sent us to speak with Sunstorm? Think he'd have told the same story? Probably not, but Sunstorm is just as qualified to speak about Natural characters as anyone, being that he's a Peacebringer of the Natural origin.
What, then? Where does the game assume that a Natural character is human, exactly? More specifically, where does the game assume a Natural character cannot be anything BUT human?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Venture would disagree with you, as he has done in the past. Myself, I tried to entertain the notion once, but realised that ghosts are, at their core, an unnatural occurrence. The souls of the dead normally pass on into the afterlife, so for a soul to remain behind, SOMETHING unnatural has to happen.|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
A ghost would be of natural origin. Doubly so if their death was the result of 'natural causes'
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Granted, that's using the more common definition (read: the Casper definition) of ghosts as souls with unfinished business. You could probably spin that around to make a ghost Natural if you asserted that a soul can linger behind by sheer force of will - in other words, choice - much like Ghost Widow did.
The origins system is flexible enough to allow this.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Like others have said, Natural is how you interpret it. It's often interpreted as having no superordinary powers, just honing your natural abilities to a near superhuman level. But it also includes aliens, as they are natural to their own planet, and it can include mythological creatures from nature like pixies and dryads and ents, as they are natural, they come from Nature and the Earth.
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...Still don't care! An Alien orgin would still have been appropriate, even if yet another classification were needed to offset it for the purpose of assigning DO enhancements. | But it also includes aliens, as they are natural to their own planet, and it can include mythological creatures from nature like pixies and dryads and ents, as they are natural, they come from Nature and the Earth. |
No one is suggesting that one be brought into the game at this late date. But it would have been appropriate, since we have a very large amount of beings from another planet running around in it. Argue semantics all you like, all you have to do is log into Atlas and at least five things from another planet will cross your path. *shrug*
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Since inception, perhaps. But I agree with a previous poster - Alien is fairly specific, and would have been more appropriate in a system with more origins of greater specificity.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
No one is suggesting that one be brought into the game at this late date. But it would have been appropriate, since we have a very large amount of beings from another planet running around in it. Argue semantics all you like, all you have to do is log into Atlas and at least five things from another planet will cross your path. *shrug*
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The original City of Heroes origins included, I believe, an origin that was something like "Magic Artefact" and one that was something like "Wielder of Magic." I would not actually be opposed to such a system, as it would probably be more accurate, if also more restrictive, than the broad, loose definitions we have now. Such a system would also probably have to come with the prospect of dual origins, as well. It seems like it more defines the SOURCE of power, and many characters have multiple. Wasn't Dr. Doom an accomplished sorcerer as well as scientist in some continuities?
I honestly wouldn't criticise a game which had this if it came out today. It's just that this is most often suggested as an appendix to this game, in the form of an extra origin, and it creates more problems than it solves, I dare say.
*edit*
You know what would be simplest? Let us type in our own origin. Alien? Be my guest! Gadget? Why not? Kumquat? Err... Yeah, OK.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes indeed! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
...
*edit* You know what would be simplest? Let us type in our own origin. Alien? Be my guest! Gadget? Why not? Kumquat? Err... Yeah, OK. |
Type it in, pick the inherent power... be on your way, thankyouverymuch!
That would be great.
Yeah, if the argument is "I would prefer..." that's one thing... but the fact is that the existing origins cover all things (without any one of them being narrowly specific) and, most importantly, they are not based on the being's race, home or anything... it is not a birthplace origin... but the origin of the power that the character uses to fight crime and/or commit crime and so forth.
A mutant who's only mutated powers were to change the color of their eyes at will, but uses an advanced power suit to fight crime would (based on the system) best be classified as a Tech Origin.
An expert martial artist who discovered magical gloves that allow him to shoot bursts of energy at will would properly be classified as a Magic Origin.
A small being from planet Xzenon who uses advanced gadgets to create and/or manipulate gravitational fields, fly, teleport and heal wounds would best be classified as Tech Origin.
Another being from Xzenon who was one of the slave races and trained to fight as soldiers in the wars, who uses their brute strength to rip apart their foes would best be classified as a Natural origin. Unless they were enhanced through scientific means, which could lead to a Science origin.
Why would being alien matter?
What about a human who was abducted as a child, raised on another planet where they honed their physical skills under a heavier atmosphere and returned to Earth with a greater power than humans could normally aspire to?
Sure, he'd be natural (if no scientific/mutation/magical enhancements were undertaken)... but then again, that is not a natural environment for a human... That's literally an alien environment.
Anyways... this is silliness...
No one likes my natural aura of cigar smoke?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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And that's why you don't speak to Sunstorm as a Natural Contact or as part of the Origin of Powers, because his "Natural Alien" origin doesn't fit in the categories of origins that we have. The Devs are fine with leaving it ambiguous, but if the day comes that they do, I think we'll be looking at a new Origin, like it or not.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Everywhere else? Such as? What, throwing knives? Are we assuming aliens have to use future tech, mind control and space ships? A large percentage of my own aliens come from vastly UNDERDEVELOPED worlds of no real technology to speak of, bring powers with them that they were basically born with. One specific alien, in fact, comes from an alternate Earth where the world is hideously inhospitable and humans simply evolved to be big, tough and unkillable. Her PRIMARY POWER is an axe. How much stranger is it to have a throwing knife?
What else? Enhancements? The ones named after training disciplines and techniques? Why, are aliens precluded from knowing martial arts, being disciplined or training? Why does everyone always assume that just because a character is alien and born with certain powers, that this character has never had to train, persevere or practice to perfection? If we can assume that a person can train his body to gain greater physical strength, higher endurance and stronger bones, then why can a person who already has the ability to shoot energy out of his hands not train to shoot more energy out of his hands faster and with greater precision without exhausting himself? You don't need to be human to train. What else? The origin of powers arcs? Both of the characters who talk about the Natural origin are natural humans, so obviously they'll speak about their own experiences. But the origin of powers contacts are provably wrong, and not just because I don't like what they're saying. They contradict each other on numerous occasions. Suppose that instead of Manticore, Percy Winkley sent us to speak with Sunstorm? Think he'd have told the same story? Probably not, but Sunstorm is just as qualified to speak about Natural characters as anyone, being that he's a Peacebringer of the Natural origin. What, then? Where does the game assume that a Natural character is human, exactly? More specifically, where does the game assume a Natural character cannot be anything BUT human? |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Just make a friggin Alien Origin, make it part of an entire Issue where you can add new Alien themed enhancements, story arcs, maps (Space Station anyone?), etc. You can already drop Kheldians into this origin for a start.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."