Origins Pack - Natural Auras and Capes
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2010-11-03 17:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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My theory about pandora's box has come to this: It gave humanity NOTHING, but what it did was remove a "limiter" in people's minds, also removed the weirdness censor that would keep them from noticing things like the Circle of Thorns.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Basically, Pandora's Box feels more like a plot device than something we want to integrate inside ongoing stories.
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In a sense, what I believe Pandora's box is/did, is that it broadens the human scope of reality. A feat achievable on its own, Pandora's box just does it on a large scale, with little to no need to work for it and makes better able to use our abilities. (So by expanding our concept of what's possible, in the case of mutants, this might be someone able to accept "okay, my body temperature is naturally higher than normal people's, I am able to use fire." rather than "Oh man, I need to see a doctor about this illness")
This also works to explain why, no matter what origin or source, raw psychic powers (so discounting the X-kinetic) always basically function the same way.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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The Origin of Power nonsense was a huge story mistake. Not as big as the terrible choice made when designing CoV's backstory which crams us all into the same railroad tunnel, but it's pretty huge. It puts us in straitjackets and limits our creativity. The only way to deal with it is to ignore it, and that's a shame.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I think the entire issue stems from how our powers came to be. The whole "Pandora's Box", "Well of the Furies" thing begs the question of where do Heroes from outer space get their powers from if they aren't even from Earth? Now we are being reminded more often of the Origin of Powers and also reminded more and more of how we those Alien characters seem not to fit in the over-arching narrative of the game. Sure, Kheldians have a well fleshed out back story, but how many stories arcs about the other five origins must you do before you wonder just were do you really fit in?
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
The other thing with all of this talk about an "alien" origin...
What about all of the faeries, elves, other-dimensional and other-worldly beings?
Would this proposed origin lump Elves and Kheldians together?
Again, the Origins aren't based on anything other than what that character did, does, had-happen-to-them to attain/use their most prominent powers.
Could a wider slant be taken for origin types? Of course!
Do the existing five origins cover everything? Yes!
Would adding one more narrowly-defined origin help anyone other than someone who wants to have their origin specifically say "alien"? I don't think so and haven't seen any indication as to how it would.
Far be it from me to want to inhibit someone's idea of fun, though. I just don't see any compelling argument/basis for the suggested change.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Origins are no more constraining than having to start you career in Paragon City or the Rogues or Preatoria. You have to write your narratives around the fact that you only have a few abilities to start with and have to train to learn more. It seems everyone is saying Origins is making it hard for you to be creative.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I really dislike this aspect of comics, that and the constant reboots and alternate universes.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
"Dang," said Superboy, "I forgot that I can move at Faster-Than-Light Speed and could punch Karate Kid 30,000 times a second, even if I were not already invulnerable to any physical attack he could make!"
"Blast," said the Silver Surfer, "I forgot that I can alter my molecular structure to be stronger than hardened steel and unbendable by any human, much less than I can reduce T'Challa to a pile of smoking cinders if I wanted!" "Tell me about it," murmured Doctor Doom, "I forgot that if the writer wants it, Squirrel Girl will kick your freakin' butt... but, of course, She's Just That Good." It is enough to make Troy Hickman weep.  |
Edit: Oh and cross-overs that don't make any sense ...
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Origin of Power is a lot worse than CoV ever was. But still not as cringe worthy than the stuff they made up for inventions and especially power diversification.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The Origin of Power nonsense was a huge story mistake. Not as big as the terrible choice made when designing CoV's backstory which crams us all into the same railroad tunnel, but it's pretty huge. It puts us in straitjackets and limits our creativity. The only way to deal with it is to ignore it, and that's a shame.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
If someone is new to the game and asked me which origin is best I will tell noobs just don't pick Science. At some point new players are going to have to learn what color enhancements do what, having to do that while dechipering the messed up names science SOs have is cruel.
Back when you had to unlock a contact so you could get access to endmod and travel DO/SOs science contacts made you fight Vahz, which back then had Toxic attacks that didn't have a postional vector attached to the attack. Ranged defense did noting against toxic spit.
I just always pick natural these days. I've been every origin in Paragon and every origin in the Isles, natural stores in my experience are more accessible then other origins. Such as being closer to a trainer. When you could only get one jetpack and you wanted to make that jetpack last as long as possible, the distance between the trainer and your store is an important factor in deciding origin.
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I really don't see the problems people are having with the SO's ... You can read right? Just hover over the enhancement and read the stats.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
If someone is new to the game and asked me which origin is best I will tell noobs just don't pick Science. At some point new players are going to have to learn what color enhancements do what, having to do that while dechipering the messed up names science SOs have is cruel.
Back when you had to unlock a contact so you could get access to endmod and travel DO/SOs science contacts made you fight Vahz, which back then had Toxic attacks that didn't have a postional vector attached to the attack. Ranged defense did noting against toxic spit. I just always pick natural these days. I've been every origin in Paragon and every origin in the Isles, natural stores in my experience are more accessible then other origins. Such as being closer to a trainer. When you could only get one jetpack and you wanted to make that jetpack last as long as possible, the distance between the trainer and your store is an important factor in deciding origin. |
I always pick what I feel goes best with the charcters concept. I only picked it once based on 'convenience' and regretted it ever since. (The character's 50 now, so no, i'm not rerolling
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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The Origins as written *are* constraining, because it comes with authorial decree. The major NPCs say things like "mutants didn't exist before 1938." Which instantly made my slow-aging 117-year-old mutant non-canon.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Origins are no more constraining than having to start you career in Paragon City or the Rogues or Preatoria. You have to write your narratives around the fact that you only have a few abilities to start with and have to train to learn more. It seems everyone is saying Origins is making it hard for you to be creative.
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Other things, such as NPC Positron's mention of Powerset proliferation, are completely unnecessary. Why does it matter in the game world why powers were shared with different archetypes? That's the equivalent of explaining why we can suddenly color our powers or have kittens on our shoulders. But the main issue from that lies in the fact he claims that even Naturals are affected by Power Proliferation... which changes them from Natural to some sort of silly Magic-Tech hybrid.
As I went through Percy Winkley's arc, I just got more and more annoyed because the writers were constraining us ever more... for no apparent reason. There's no need to explain proliferation because it's just a game mechanic. I was afraid there would be some arc explaining why we can suddenly see shadows after UltraMode was added. It's ridiculous to put limitations on characters' backstories.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Exactly. I still can't get past the whole technomagic nonsense explanation for power proliferation. What were they thinking? Why would something like that need an in game explanation?
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The Origins as written *are* constraining, because it comes with authorial decree. The major NPCs say things like "mutants didn't exist before 1938." Which instantly made my slow-aging 117-year-old mutant non-canon.
Other things, such as NPC Positron's mention of Powerset proliferation, are completely unnecessary. Why does it matter in the game world why powers were shared with different archetypes? That's the equivalent of explaining why we can suddenly color our powers or have kittens on our shoulders. But the main issue from that lies in the fact he claims that even Naturals are affected by Power Proliferation... which changes them from Natural to some sort of silly Magic-Tech hybrid. As I went through Percy Winkley's arc, I just got more and more annoyed because the writers were constraining us ever more... for no apparent reason. There's no need to explain proliferation because it's just a game mechanic. I was afraid there would be some arc explaining why we can suddenly see shadows after UltraMode was added. It's ridiculous to put limitations on characters' backstories. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Why, they needed a way to explain why my Stalker could suddenly pick up a broadsword and make use of it. |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Exactly. I still can't get past the whole technomagic nonsense explanation for power proliferation. What were they thinking? Why would something like that need an in game explanation?
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Have they even mentioned Doctor Brainstorm ever since the first proliferation, anyways?
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Welcome to City of Heroes, where you can't pick up a sword until a mad scientist nobody knows or cares about alters the very fabric of reality. | Why, they needed a way to explain why my Stalker could suddenly pick up a broadsword and make use of it. |
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We should ask those people who bought GR and will never become 3 month vets what problems they had with DOs and the origin system. They might say the fact you need to click the enhancements in the store and from the menu that pops up click info. That whole process is time consuming and unfun. I'm sure having all the origins in one store is great, but making new players scroll through 10 different sets when there are only 5 origins seems like it creates a waste of time. Do you think new players get mad when they buy a DO they can't even slot? A DO they can't even afford since they don't have enough money to slot everything in the first place?| I really don't see the problems people are having with the SO's ... You can read right? Just hover over the enhancement and read the stats. |
Enhancements are great, I love the systems the Devs have devolped but you think people having problems with enhancements is cause they can't read. Think for a second how other MMOs use a system where you drag a sword onto a picture of a hand and a pair of boots onto their feet and you're done enhancing. It's a very user friendly system, user friendly stream lines fun. Having to click on items in a crappy UI so you can click again in order to read if you can even slot this item is not maximizing the fun for new players.
Awakening: Endurance Modification
WetWare Eng Hyperkinetic Polymer
Guess which of those is Science?
Which of those two names would be easier for a new player to fiqure out what it does?
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All those problems are solved by reading the pop up. In just about every game I ever played you need to read the stats of an item to know what it does ...|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
We should ask those people who bought GR and will never become 3 month vets what problems they had with DOs and the origin system. They might say the fact you need to click the enhancements in the store and from the menu that pops up click info. That whole process is time consuming and unfun. I'm sure having all the origins in one store is great, but making new players scroll through 10 different sets when there are only 5 origins seems like it creates a waste of time. Do you think new players get mad when they buy a DO they can't even slot? A DO they can't even afford since they don't have enough money to slot everything in the first place?
Enhancements are great, I love the systems the Devs have devolped but you think people having problems with enhancements is cause they can't read. Think for a second how other MMOs use a system where you drag a sword onto a picture of a hand and a pair of boots onto their feet and you're done enhancing. It's a very user friendly system, user friendly stream lines fun. Having to click on items in a crappy UI so you can click again in order to read if you can even slot this item is not maximizing the fun for new players. Awakening: Endurance Modification WetWare Eng Hyperkinetic Polymer Guess which of those is Science? Which of those two names would be easier for a new player to fiqure out what it does? |
I admit that the origin based enhancements are a bit hamfisted and outdated, but I'm still not seeing the huge problem people seem to make of it.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Neither, one's Mutation and the other is Technology. |
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
(snip)
Awakening: Endurance Modification WetWare Eng Hyperkinetic Polymer Guess which of those is Science? (/snip) |
You've wanted more control and now you have it.
You have your vet blinders on take them off.
Damage resistance SOs are closer to the greenest color on the list or the darkest blue color on the list? Person buys GR, in 30 days they have to decide to resub or leave. The amount of time spent opening up two pop ups is going to cut down on the time they spend enjoying the game.
Catalyst: Improved Resistance
Argon Experiment
Which one of those is Science?
Do you think its polite or impolite for a team member to be afk from the team for 5 minutes in order to level and shop and enhance. What if it takes them 10 minutes is it okay. What if its a couple of players afk for that long. When a new player has to spend the time reading all that info they may not realize they are an inconvience possibly to the team. If my team leader has decided its polite to wait for everyone before we even enter a mission and I think we should wait for noone, I'm gonna be polite and go with the leaders wishes but I hope that newbie doesn't have to find what he wants listed in the science section cause its gonna take them longer to find it.
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Ohhnooo|
Originally Posted by Unit24
Neither, one's Mutation and the other is Technology.
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lets try it again
Awakening: Endurance Modification
Impervium Exposure
which one of those is Science
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I learned the enhancement system using the magic origin. None of those have logical names either. I didn't have much problems then, I still don't have em now.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
You have your vet blinders on take them off.
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| Damage resistance SOs are closer to the greenest color on the list or the darkest blue color on the list? Person buys GR, in 30 days they have to decide to resub or leave. The amount of time spent opening up two pop ups is going to cut down on the time they spend enjoying the game. |
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Catalyst: Improved Resistance Argon Experiment Which one of those is Science? |
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| Do you think its polite or impolite for a team member to be afk from the team for 5 minutes in order to level and shop and enhance. What if it takes them 10 minutes is it okay. What if its a couple of players afk for that long. When a new player has to spend the time reading all that info they may not realize they are an inconvience possibly to the team. If my team leader has decided its polite to wait for everyone before we even enter a mission and I think we should wait for noone, I'm gonna be polite and go with the leaders wishes but I hope that newbie doesn't have to find what he wants listed in the science section cause its gonna take them longer to find it. |
Also teamleaders that ask to wait for the whole team to get there, will find me leaving the team fairly quickly if things keep dragging on. When you're on my team, you can go do whatever you want, just don't expect the whole team to wait for it, you can always catch up. That counts for myself as well. Noone has to wait for me.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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This is pretty much why I refuse to acknowledge the existence of that entire storyline, and will continue to do so until it disappears from canon. The whole thing puts all of our current origin under the banner of one super-origin which is described in detail and put under severe limitations. Yes, you are a very smart scientist while I am a god. We are very much not alike... Only we get our powers from the same place, or are "allowed to have" our powers by the same device. It's really not needed, and it trivialises our characters' achievements and actual prowess.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
The Origins as written *are* constraining, because it comes with authorial decree. The major NPCs say things like "mutants didn't exist before 1938." Which instantly made my slow-aging 117-year-old mutant non-canon.
Other things, such as NPC Positron's mention of Powerset proliferation, are completely unnecessary. Why does it matter in the game world why powers were shared with different archetypes? That's the equivalent of explaining why we can suddenly color our powers or have kittens on our shoulders. But the main issue from that lies in the fact he claims that even Naturals are affected by Power Proliferation... which changes them from Natural to some sort of silly Magic-Tech hybrid. As I went through Percy Winkley's arc, I just got more and more annoyed because the writers were constraining us ever more... for no apparent reason. There's no need to explain proliferation because it's just a game mechanic. I was afraid there would be some arc explaining why we can suddenly see shadows after UltraMode was added. It's ridiculous to put limitations on characters' backstories. |
Yes, I read the explanations of Pandora's Box, and I still feel that it was hugely unnecessary to add this to the game. Let me ask the following question: What does the game benefit from having that storyline? Were people honestly sitting around and wondering "Golly-gosh! I wonder WHY my scientist is so smart!" or "Gee Willikers! Why is my new fighter able to use an axe? They weren't able to do that before!" I know the development team liked explaining in-game additions with storyline additions, such as the accursed cape mission, but honestly... That has never been anything but trouble. Only where before it was just mildly annoying, with the Origin of Powers arc, it became catastrophic.
I will take City of Villain's stupid Arachnos fanboy plot over this any day. At least with CoV's plot, I can still pretend I'm working with them for my own ends and still acknowledge the story. But with the Origin of Powers, I can't really get around the insulting notions of what Origins have become unless I just ignore the idea altogether.
Thank GOD that Dr. Brainstorm hasn't show up anywhere else but in that one off-beat community announcement. Maybe the development team wised up to the fact that you don't have to explain everything as something specific, and should instead let players define what these vague concepts mean for them. With Inventions, they are undefined. Rather than trying to present them as technomagic reality warpers, why not just present them as "fill in the blank" improvements that you have to explain for your own characters? For instance, having a Triumphant Insult slotted does not mean your character is somehow bulked up by magic nannites. It just means he's a ******** loudmouth.
Developers do the best work when they define the setting and let us define how our characters fit in it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Balderdash. All us "vets" learned the game the hard way, back when there was no ParagonWiki, no global channels and when we didn't have friends lists worth a damn, as well as when the team seek feature only showed people in the same zone as you. And yet we didn't tie our brains in a knot.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
You have your vet blinders on take them off.
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Catalyst: Improved Resistance Argon Experiment Which one of those is Science? |
And if you MUST have help, all the stores up to level 30 also sell Training enhancements, so you can pick the colour of the enhancement from those and search for it in the DO/SO pile.
Enhancement colours are very distinct between each other, with only a select few being close. Defence and resistance are almost the same, but in different parts of the list, the colour of slows looks like of like the colour of immobilizes, jump looks kind of like intangibility and run and fly kind of look the same. But even then, that's one choice between two colours. Even with the pop-up not functioning, it's hardly a titanic effort.
All of that said, I'm not saying the store interface can't or shouldn't be improved. But you're presenting new players as some kind of knuckle-dragging idiots, which most of them are not.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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There's no trick question, I'm going on an on about how screwed up the names of Science SOs are by comparing one to a Mutation SO for the second time. Notice how the Mutation SO lists what part of a power gets an enhanced right in the title and the Science one doesn't. | Argon Experiment? Is there a trick question in there somewhere that I'm missing? |
I say steer the newbies to an origin that makes the most sense the fastest.
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| If you as a team leader are 'inconvenienced' by a new player learning the game, you need to get over yourself. If they ask me I'll explain it all or I'll even go buy the things for them, from my own money if they can't afford it. |
People don't have a problem with reading and clicking once or twice, they do get turned off by having to do too much of it at once. I say telling a newbie to roll Mutation is doing a newbie a favour, less reading and clicking will mean more fun.
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| Seriously? You got ADD or something? |
The next time the Devs release an expansion a little more thought about new players takes place, and what can be down to make it easier. Leveling faster is great, having stamina for free is super. DOs that drop in Praetoria are almost always an origin the player can use (only got 2 so far I couldn't use). Base Accuracy is higher for lowbies. All great changes that should help get new subscribers to stick around. Altering the origin system so it doesn't have such a stupid effect as locking you into using DOs with such undescriptive names is the next QOL change for newbies the Devs should address. Or we the player base could spred the word to newbies that Mutation is a less annoying origin to be your first couple times alting through the game.
Of course if the player is planning on being Trick Arrow someone should explain which origin powers light OSA and which don't. I'd have to Wiki it since I have Nem Staff to light my OSA.
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I'm still not seeing a problem. And I know you weren't referring to yourself, but since you apparently see all sorts of problems that indicate a very short attention span, where I never experienced them, you had me wondering.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
stuff
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The only change that wouldn't be a huge amount of effort compared to the small problem that I can see, would be a better interface for shops.
One were all the enhancements were divided by type (TO, DO,SO) and then by origin under different tabs or something. So you don't have to deal with a huge list.
I'm not opposed to renaming all the SOs and DOs or whatever. I just really don't see the need for it.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Every refer a friend promotion Cryptic ran, I sent out those invites. People responded and came and played for two weeks. I couple stayed for almost 3 years. Each one of them asked me what origin they should be. Joining the game that way doesn't get you the little book you and I got when we bought the game. They get a PDF and they should read it front to back but it dosen't change the fact that when a friend asks me what origin they should be, and I know that first time though the game slotting is more confusing being Science instead of being Mutation I'm not being a very good friend if I tell them it doesn't matter. I realize my friends, who aren't knuckle dragging idiots, each of them knows how to read, is going to look at the description of a Mutation SO and know right off the bat what it is going to enhance and if I tell him it doesn't matter pick any origin and once he realizes that Mutation has every thing you need to know right in the title and Science makes you click, and click to get the same information they are gonna want to know why I didn't tell them that.|
The one that has electricity around its border. You know, like the City of Heroes manual said over six years ago. At no point are the names of enhancements even in the slightest important. Enhancement border tells you its origin and enhancement colour tells you its type. Unless you're colour blind or have incredibly poor vision, neither of those is all that hard. And if you MUST have help, all the stores up to level 30 also sell Training enhancements, so you can pick the colour of the enhancement from those and search for it in the DO/SO pile. Enhancement colours are very distinct between each other, with only a select few being close. Defence and resistance are almost the same, but in different parts of the list, the colour of slows looks like of like the colour of immobilizes, jump looks kind of like intangibility and run and fly kind of look the same. But even then, that's one choice between two colours. Even with the pop-up not functioning, it's hardly a titanic effort. All of that said, I'm not saying the store interface can't or shouldn't be improved. But you're presenting new players as some kind of knuckle-dragging idiots, which most of them are not. |
My nephew is 10, getting him to read the word resistance isn't too much of a problem. Hiding that word behind something named Argon Experiment to creating a problem.
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A new interface is a great idea, a series of drop down menus to sort by origin and DO/SO and level is a great quality of life improvement for everybody.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I'm still not seeing a problem. And I know you weren't referring to yourself, but since you apparently see all sorts of problems that indicate a very short attention span, where I never experienced them, you had me wondering.
The only change that wouldn't be a huge amount of effort compared to the small problem that I can see, would be a better interface for shops. One were all the enhancements were divided by type (TO, DO,SO) and then by origin under different tabs or something. So you don't have to deal with a huge list. I'm not opposed to renaming all the SOs and DOs or whatever. I just really don't see the need for it. |
Renaming SOs would be a different job, that wouldn't change my experience with the game but if someone ever gets the job of fixing the typos in the dialogue in this game maybe that person could change the names of some of the more vague names found in the enhancements.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction