Soloing EBs, AVs and GMs. Your thoughts.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-17 19:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm in favor of being able to solo elite bosses (because I'm stuck with them in my solo missions), but not AVs or GMs. AVs and GMs were intentionally meant for team play, and I have no problem with that, as long as the AVs downgrade to EBs in solo play for me.|
Originally Posted by OminousVoice
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
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| 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? |
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| 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? |
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| 4. Whatever else you wish to add. |
I gave up on fighting AVs and GMs a long time ago.
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It's a bad idea to scale AVs to team size, and here's why: A team that wants a challenge can turn up their difficulty. A +4 AV isn't trivial. Whereas if they scaled up, a team that was having difficulty couldn't just call in whichever of their friends happened to be online at the time to help, or the AV would just get tougher to compensate. It would heavily skew all AV encounters in favor of optimized teams.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not sure what a superior system for scaling content would be that didn't involve making eight versions of every AV and EB or designing encounters that play different ways depending on the team size. Yes, Left 4 Dead's AI Director would be cool if we had it, but that's really out of the question. About the only other thing I can think of is putting AVs' and EBs' stats into some kind of passive buff that itself scales with people who are currently in the instance. That way, an AV would be easier if fought by four people than he or she would be if fought by eight people, thus providing scaling difficulty. I'm not sure if that's worth doing, however.
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Redesigning the encounter itself is something I'm entirely in favor of, regardless of the team sizes involved.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
As one of those posting here that does solo AVs, I want to say for the record that I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in higher challenges than already exist in the game. The game already has several gateways that are difficult enough to make sure they are not always successes; I've been on plenty of failed attempts at the Imperious Task Force*, the Lord Recluse Strike Force, and the Barracuda Strike Force. I don't play blueside much, but the Statesman Task Force is supposed to be about as hard as the LRSF, so I'm sure that gets failed a lot too.
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I don't consider those encounters difficult at all. The biggest difficulty is putting together the right team. I don't think I've done a single thing in this game that ticked me off more than my failed attempt at the Barracuda Strike Force...on which we discovered that in order to stop Reichsman from going intangible and regenerating all the damage you did, you needed a Mastermind. No single AT or powerset should EVER be required to beat an encounter. I would even go so far as to say that no single game mechanic should ever be required. Yes, that means every encounter should be beatable with no -regen...if you have enough DPS. Or no tank...if you have enough buffs and debuffs.
I think the game does need more challenges, it just needs challenges that don't take the form of bigger sacks of HP. It also needs more solo/small team challenges.
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| *I sometimes get scoffed at for saying I've run failed ITFs. I play Masterminds, even in team content. Take two Masterminds on the ITF and see if you still scoff. The summoner Nictus at the end seems designed specifically to punish teams for having Masterminds. |
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| **I have long felt that the big sack o' hit points approach to AV design is obnoxiously boring. I'd like to see them with more normal hit points, solid resistances, and a set of long-recharge powers that mimics a tray full of inspirations. So they pop purples to up their defense at the beginning of the fight, and use greens for one-shot heals when they start to get beaten down too far. Different AVs could get different mixes, tailored to their personalities. Tweak the numbers right, and AVs would remain just as much of a challenge, but the fight would be more dynamic. Plus, teams that currently have trouble overcoming an AV's regen could potentially wear them down--make it run out of "inspirations", then rush to finish the fight before they start to recharge. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
EBs should be able to be soloed relatively easily with basic tools (i.e. SOs and inspirations). This is generally the case, so they seem to be working out pretty well.
AVs should be able to be soloed by people who have invested a lot of time and (fake) money in the ability to do so. This is generally the case, so they also seem to be working out pretty well.
I always kind of felt like GMs should not be soloable, but I'm not sure how you pull that off without making them inaccessible to casual team players as well.
I have soloed several AVs with my fire/SR scrapper and I love the feeling of success I get after I win a tough fight with an AV. And part of the reason that it's so rewarding is precisely because it is so difficult. I've invested significant time and resources in building that particular character, and even still I can rarely beat an AV the first time around. If everyone could do it, it wouldn't mean much.
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To be clear, I am not saying the game needs even tougher challenges than we do now. But more above-average challenges available, as this game probably has a high percentage of those types of players who would like something different and more interesting.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
As one of those posting here that does solo AVs, I want to say for the record that I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in higher challenges than already exist in the game.
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Just creating more missions, more minions, LT's, bosses etc, more TF's isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, what is created, be more intelligent. A TF that's more involved and interesting. Missions that have more parts or requirements. Stuff like that. Not merely more EB's in missions, harder-to-kill AV's, etc.
That sort of thing might very well be in the works, with the two new TF's and missions coming up in I19. Time will tell.
It would be more interesting to see alternative dialogues take place, but allow you to carry on, should you choose not to fight an EB.
"Oh you decided to make a deal with Lord Recluse of the future, rather than defeat him? Well that makes today's Lord Recluse happy. We'll let you live. Now go fight Dr. Aeon...."
"You wimped out and ran from Dr. Aeon? Seriously? You know he often cuts out early. Okay, now go fight some Hellions...."
"You chose not to fight 3K Kelvin? What? Go back there you big baby! No? Okay fine...."
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A team that wants a challenge, however, must exit the mission and reset in order to force the AV to respawn, which is the crux of the problem. I'm looking for team content that scales to teams in real time, rather than before the mission even starts.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It's a bad idea to scale AVs to team size, and here's why: A team that wants a challenge can turn up their difficulty. A +4 AV isn't trivial. Whereas if they scaled up, a team that was having difficulty couldn't just call in whichever of their friends happened to be online at the time to help, or the AV would just get tougher to compensate. It would heavily skew all AV encounters in favor of optimized teams.
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To alleviate the problem, I can see this "scaling with the team" happen only under certain difficulty settings, such as if you set the level very high, or even if you toggle on a specific setting.
Mostly what I'm against is battles with static parameters that different numbers of characters of different levels of power must be balanced against. As long as your enemies are static, then you will ALWAYS have some teams which are too weak and some teams which are far too strong, all at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've never had a character who can't solo most EBs, and this is coming from somebody who plays mostly team support squishies and barely touches IOs on 90% of characters. AVs and GMs, I'm for people being able to solo with some investment in their characters.|
Originally Posted by OminousVoice
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
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| 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? |
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| 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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While there are TFs and SFs I like a lot less than others, I think I can fairly say that the BSF is the only SF that I actively dislike, and that's the reason why. Having to go find Recluse's LTs one at a time and lead them through caves back to the central room doesn't help, but if it was just that, I'd just have low favor for the thing. The AT "requirement" makes me actively want to avoid playing it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I don't think I've done a single thing in this game that ticked me off more than my failed attempt at the Barracuda Strike Force...on which we discovered that in order to stop Reichsman from going intangible and regenerating all the damage you did, you needed a Mastermind.
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1. They can already be soloed. It's not just an idea.|
Originally Posted by OminousVoice
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why? 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? 4. Whatever else you wish to add. |
2. I solo EB's all the time. I solo AV's occasionally.
I've never seriously tried a GM.
I don't really even play my scrapper on anything less than +1/x3
I still have a lot of room to grow before I am maxed.
Fighting an EB I actually have to pay attention and and sometimes even use tactics
Fighting an AV I have to be careful and plan my attacks out, mistakes = death
Soloing an AV feels awesome. I beat something had a real chance of winning.
3. The dynamics will have to change to keep the game challenging to the incarnates.
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I just finished the Maria Jenkins arc on my claws / regen scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
2. I've soloed plenty of EBs. I'm working my electric/ice tanker through the Maria Jenkins arc right now (between checking the forums).
 Just soloed Black Swan, Battle Maiden, Neuron, Nightstar, uh... Bobcat, uh... I forget. Siege, though - bah! Even with a boatload of reds, even set at -1/x1, even with the help of Amy Jonsson, couldn't do it. Can't out-damage his <bleeping!> heal.( |
Tyrant was a fun little fight, but not really challenging once the adds went down.
Nosferatu is still the one that I find most difficult.
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Am I the only one who immediately thought 'Benny Hill Booster Pack' upon reading that?|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
3 minutes being chased around a room by Valkyrie in God Mode and being chased in turn by a pack of zombies, like something out of Benny Hill (thankfully the zombies weren't wearing scanty nurses outfits and suspenders though).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Absolutely.| 1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why? |
Not only should EBs be soloable, I think they can be soloed by any AT with any powerset combo. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it requires using the right insp loadout and *gasp*, thoughtful tactics. Personally, all of my vills are required to solo LR as an EB, as a sort of right of passage. Sometimes, this can take a LOOONG time and a lot of trips to the hospital (hopefully the door is at the portal in Grandville and not Nerva).
As for AV/GMs, I'm willing to bet the number of characters doing this is extremely low. Personally, I've bagged AVs on a very small percent of my 50s. I think this is fine that the characters with the basic tools and the right build (including bonuses), using solid tactics, can perform very high level feats.
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| 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? |
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| 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? |
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| 4. Whatever else you wish to add. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
It doesn't matter what the dev's do. The players will figure out how to beat it. This has been true of every game I've ever played. Personally, I like the level of difficulty they have now.
2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward?
AVs yes, almost all of them. GMs... with temp powers.
3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system?
For me no. I really never solo AVs anymore... I know I can, but don't find it as fun as teaming.
4. Whatever else you wish to add.
As I started to mention on my answer to question 3. I don't solo AVs anymore. When I originally started to, it was a pretty rare thing for my chosen AT, so I documented my feats and posted video about it (google shred monkey and you can still find them... not the guitar playing monkey... scroll down). Someone once paid me 10M inf to join me on a mission and watch me do it because they didn't think it was possible.
But now soloing AVs is more common. Very rarely to you find someone who thinks it's impossible, so while I know all the toons I take to 50 can do it, I don't bother to. There's no bonus reward for doing it. So, instead, I find myself focusing my builds and play time on team play and/or gaining rewards as fast as possible.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
I just remembered that I used to solo AVs occasionally, prior to Issue 7.
The AVs were all at least five levels below me. I let their missions sit in my mission list for a long time. Thankfully we have the AV->EB feature now. The game mechanics have improved a lot, as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, and I soloed a number of giant monsters before they introduced the purple GM patch. Back in the early days, the GMs each had a specific level, and you could outlevel them quite a bit to take them out easily.
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I think EBs should be soloable by any decently build character using inspirations sensibly. For people who solo EBs represent the big, bad guys you fight after making your way through the mooks, I think that is an important part of the game.|
Originally Posted by OminousVoice
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
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AVs and GMs I think should be team content, they are intended to represent a challenge to a team and while they sort of do the fact that they can be soloable is an indication of the issues with how certain game mechanics interact.
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| 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? |
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| 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? |
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| 4. Whatever else you wish to add. |
I'm a dealer in magic and spells
In blessings and curses
And ever-filled purses
In prophecies, witches and knells.
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Now that you mention it, I did that quite a bit too. I took on Maestro at -1 or -2 with my MA/Regen and I think a -20 Dr. Vahz with my Ice Blaster (it was an open arc I didn't know I had). I did solo Dr. Vahz at even level at one point with my fully DOd BS/Regen Scrapper that I don't have anymore. So that was my first AV. It took a very long time, and much running around the big central platform waiting for Reconstruction to recharge. That was, of course, before AV regen was buffed.
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Originally Posted by Mirai
I just remembered that I used to solo AVs occasionally, prior to Issue 7.
The AVs were all at least five levels below me. I let their missions sit in my mission list for a long time. Thankfully we have the AV->EB feature now. The game mechanics have improved a lot, as far as I'm concerned. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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EBs, yes. AVs, on the fence, leading towards no. GMs, IME, should be the toughest mobs in the game that should, simply, insta-gib any soloers.|
Originally Posted by OminousVoice
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
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| 2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward? |
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| 3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system? |
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| 4. Whatever else you wish to add. |
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For many players, that content is still team content. I know I have had to team to take on difficult EBs and most AVs I ran across through out the game. No purples, no complete sets, lots of IOs though.
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Originally Posted by BurningChick
I think that the proliferation of ZOMG extreme builds has hurt what used to be one of CoH's prime strengths: teaming. I can can rack up more 100+z soloing on heavily IOed toons from ~ 25 or 30 than I can teamed. That really, really shouldn't be happening. Don't get me wrong, I love my purpled toons (note: my Thugs / Traps is /not/ purpled), but the game has lost some of its zazz with how easy it is to solo what should be team-only content. |
I don't think EBs are team content.
I can't think of one that I haven't soloed when I got to it.
May have died once or twice, but most of them I can take down with whatever toon I'm playing. Note that I don't play controllers or defenders so I've eliminated most of the annoyance right there.
I think one of my best fights was against BAB with my fire/fire dom. It ended with him dead astride a pointed fence. I was like: 'Sing soprano you B$#@*^'
Good times!
Also did Hro'dutz with my archery/devices blaster. Rain of Arrows, Time bomb plus about 12 trip mines...nothing to sneeze at.
I don't really ever go after AVs or GMs solo...too boring really. No decent reward.
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
Yes and no, I believe that there should be certain villains that require a team effort in order to defeat
2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward?
Yes I have solo'd an EB/AV/GM and I usually feel like an internet bad *** afterward
3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system?
No not really, it'll pretty much stay around the same as it is
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Those builds are extremely rare. |
Originally Posted by BurningChick
I think that the proliferation of ZOMG extreme builds has hurt what used to be one of CoH's prime strengths: teaming. I can can rack up more 100+z soloing on heavily IOed toons from ~ 25 or 30 than I can teamed. That really, really shouldn't be happening. Don't get me wrong, I love my purpled toons (note: my Thugs / Traps is /not/ purpled), but the game has lost some of its zazz with how easy it is to solo what should be team-only content. |
If you figure that only about 10% of the playerbase utilizes the forums, and only about 10% of the forums is routinely soloing AVs, you end up with approximately 1% of the playerbase routinely soloing AVs.
The number soloing GMs is even smaller.
Your average player is not soloing team-oriented content. Don't let the forums fool you into thinking the stuff AV and GM soloers are doing is representative of the playerbase as a whole. The same goes for players soloing on high difficulty settings, it's not as common as reading the forums would lead you to believe.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I'd argue that quite a bit more of the player base uses the forums. I remember looking at the first screen on the forums at the bottom and it tells you how many registered users there are on these forums. A while back it was something like 180k or around that. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Those builds are extremely rare.
If you figure that only about 10% of the playerbase utilizes the forums, and only about 10% of the forums is routinely soloing AVs, you end up with approximately 1% of the playerbase routinely soloing AVs. The number soloing GMs is even smaller. Your average player is not soloing team-oriented content. Don't let the forums fool you into thinking the stuff AV and GM soloers are doing is representative of the playerbase as a whole. The same goes for players soloing on high difficulty settings, it's not as common as reading the forums would lead you to believe. |
But I do agree that not a lot of people are playing with ZOMGWTFBBQ builds that are capable of insane things.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Solo an AV with a Defender, any Defender, any build and then we'll talk.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Not sure what you're saying. People have soloed AVs with Defenders.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Solo an AV with a Defender, any Defender, any build and then we'll talk.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
1. Do you favour the idea of being able to solo EBs/AVs/GMs, if so/not, why?
EBs, definitely. AVs, maybe, if you play a character tweaked to do so. GMs, only under very special circumstances*, for the most part. Mind you, I have no grief with the players/characters who can currently solo AVs and GMs, and don't want any changes to stop them from doing so.
2. Have you ever soloed an EB/AV/GM, and if so how did you feel afterward?
I have soloed most of the EBs in the game, including downgraded AVs, with my empath. (He also beat a GM solo once...but it was the Kraken, and he was level 50--see Lemur's talk about the purple code.) My reaction ranges from "Meh, that was dull" to "Another one bites the dust" to "I laugh at your pain, scrappers" (that last was after swatting Protean). It depends on the EB and my mood at the time.
3. Do you think the dynamic will change after the implementation of the Incarnate system?
Not really. Soloing the more powerful categories may become more common, but only at L50. The Incarnate boosts don't work if you exemp down at all. Soloing AVs and GMs will still be dull**.
*I would like to see a mission or set of missions in which your character gets empowered specifically to do battle with a giant monster or megamech. I picture a map with all the buildings, cars, and so forth reduced to about 1/3 scale, and all the destructible objects from mayhem missions included. Your goal is to take out a giant monster (with a model scaled down to normal size) that's threatening the city. The overall effect should be that your character appears to have been enlarged to giant size for the battle. Add in a bunch of temp powers--some ranged attacks, like Throw Car, and some melee, like Clobber With Telephone Pole, that do massive damage, but are flagged to only work on the GM in the mission. You also get a major damage buff to your regular powers, and an aura that debuffs the GM's knockback resistance.
**I have long felt that the big sack o' hit points approach to AV design is obnoxiously boring. I'd like to see them with more normal hit points, solid resistances, and a set of long-recharge powers that mimics a tray full of inspirations. So they pop purples to up their defense at the beginning of the fight, and use greens for one-shot heals when they start to get beaten down too far. Different AVs could get different mixes, tailored to their personalities. Tweak the numbers right, and AVs would remain just as much of a challenge, but the fight would be more dynamic. Plus, teams that currently have trouble overcoming an AV's regen could potentially wear them down--make it run out of "inspirations", then rush to finish the fight before they start to recharge.
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