Scrapper vs Brute
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2010-10-15 18:37 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Scrappers still have criticals. 
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Yup. |
Originally Posted by Ideon
Scrappers still have criticals.
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I believe that Castle uses .075 to represent the average additional damage of criticals over time, bringing the Scrappers' "effective" modifier up to 1.2.
1.2 * 5 = 6
.75 * 7.75 = 5.8125
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I'm going to try to be very nice here.....|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
I know brutes recently had their fury and damage cap changed so that scrappers would be dealing higher damage than them, but something crossed my mind the other day. If both a scrapper and a brute are at the damage cap, the brute still outdamages the scrapper, even with the lowered brute cap.
Brute base damage is at .75 and caps at 775% Scrapper base damage is at 1.125 and caps at 500% .75*6.55=4.9125 at max damage buff for brute 1.125*4=4.5 at max damage buff for scrapper So if say, a claws/wp brute and a claws/wp scrapper are both on a team and that team has anything with kinetics in it, and is high enough level to use FS, then the brute will be doing more damage than the scrapper and also be more survivable than the scrapper. From what I can tell, that means one or more of the following three things needs to happen so scrappers out damage brutes and brutes out live scrappers. 1.)Scrappers need a higher damage cap 2.)Brutes need a lower damage cap 3.)Scrappers need a higher base damage scale Those are listed in order of what I consider most likely to happen, 1 being most likely and 3 being least likely. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Perhaps I am missing something here, but it seems like the devs overlooked that when adjusting brutes in i18. |
STOP...
TRYING....
TO....
MESS....
WITH BRUTES.....
ANYMORE!
They are balanced. Tougher than a Scrapper, not as tough as a Tanker. More Damage than a Tanker, less damage than a Scrapper.
You are over thinking things. The Devs have already addressed this matter. There's nothing more to look at here. Move on.
Thank you.
I agree with the above poster. Leave brutes alone! Stop calling for nerfs! Brutes have already been "balanced". If you want to play a scrapper, play a scrapper. If you want to play a brute, then play one.
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I'm with julio and magikwand. Stop trying to get nerfs and just play what you want. Nobody is going to care for the 1% different in optimal situation on a fully IOed builds, unless:
1) The players are very bad and need to over-compensate
2) They are trying to do a +4 speed STF with enemies buffed, player debuffed, without temps, insps or enhencements....
I dare you to show me something a brute can do but a scrapper couldn't or something a scrapper can do but a brute couldn't. (no time limit, obviously)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I'm not entirely sure where you're getting those Brute numbers from. The Brute damage cap is 775% (this includes the default 100% you start at), so the max damage scalar multiplier for a Brute is 5.8125.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
.75*6.55=4.9125 at max damage buff for brute
1.125*4=4.5 at max damage buff for scrapper |
For Scrappers, as has been said before, you're forgetting about critical hits, which are a significant part of their damage output. The average chance to get a crit is generally assumed to be roughly 7.5%, which increases the Scrapper base scalar to 1.209375, so the max damage scalar multiplier for a Scrapper is 6.046875.
You're also forgetting about the whole issue of how hard it is for a Brute to get to their damage cap compared to the ease with which a Scrapper achieves it. With SO slotting, a Scrapper is only going to need ~305% +dam. A Brute with 75% Fury and SO slotting is going to need ~430% +dam. Without any +dam buffs, Scrappers and Brutes are roughly equal (Brutes have some variance that allows them to overtake Scrappers if Fury is maintained at a high enough levle). When any degree of +dam is included, Scrappers overtake Brutes and maintain that advantage indefinitely.
The big difference is that Scrappers can (with the right teammates) actually hit their damage cap. Even with Fury, Brutes are never going to cap their damage unless they are on a very specialized team (multiple /Kins, for instance).
In practice, Brutes only cap their damage if they form a specialized team to do so. Scrappers just need a Kin with good recharge on Fulcrum Shift.
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I agree, leave my Brutes alone, we don't need more nerfs. Buff scrappers, I don't frankly care, just leave Brutes alone.
Brutes used to be "SMASH!! SMASH FAST!!" or you'd lose your fury, your anger, your drive.
Now Brutes feel "I DON'T WANNA SMASH AS HARD, BUT I KINDA HOLD A GRUDGE". I mean Really o.O
Besides OP your test is flawed, it required an outside variable for the Brute out damage the scrapper.
I never did get this whole "Scrapper vs Brute" thing. I mean I maybe wrong for asking, or even saying, but is it REALLY that big of a deal cause of a few % here and there? Is it really gonna mess up your day if the guy next to you is doing 1.5% more damage then you or can take two more hits then you can?
I mean what the heck happen to playing what you like? And as for the people wanting to make the best they can with the best there is, to that I have to ask. What the heck happen to taking something no one would give two looks at and turning it into a beast, or is bringing another AT up or down a few % the only way to make the AT one is playing fun anymore?
I don't know 
maybe it's just me, I have both a scrapper, brute, stalker and blaster and I enjoy them all. I know they don't play and act the same, but truth be told I thought that was kind of the point???
I agree with you Demonic Spark, that was supposed to be the point. It annoys me people complain and try to nerf something because they feel their AT is underpowered. IMO it would make more sense to lobby for buffs to your AT.
People toss out numbers on cap damage for brutes which throws up the assumption Brutes run at max damcap at all times. That's about as silly as testing the numbers as if all Scrappers critical every hit.
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Use Super Strength, Energy Melee, Battle Axe, War Mace, Energy Aura or Stone Armor.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
I dare you to show me something a brute can do but a scrapper couldn't
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| or something a scrapper can do but a brute couldn't. |
@Roderick
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Not in my experience. A single good Kin can have a Brute damage capped most of the time if there are big spawns. You need good recharge on Fulcrum Shift, that's where Siphon Speed comes in. It's not difficult to cap a Brute, especially since their cap got lowered. |
Originally Posted by StrykerX
The big difference is that Scrappers can (with the right teammates) actually hit their damage cap. Even with Fury, Brutes are never going to cap their damage unless they are on a very specialized team (multiple /Kins, for instance).
In practice, Brutes only cap their damage if they form a specialized team to do so. Scrappers just need a Kin with good recharge on Fulcrum Shift. |
All you really need is a Kin and big spawns. So either with a full team or the difficulty cranked up. Hardly "very specialized".
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Yes, I mistyped a 655% instead of 675%, but that simply makes the brute's number larger. As Silas pointed out, keeping a brute damage capped with one kin is not a rare occurance, I have had my ss/fire capped several times before. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
I'm not entirely sure where you're getting those Brute numbers from. The Brute damage cap is 775% (this includes the default 100% you start at), so the max damage scalar multiplier for a Brute is 5.8125.
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And for crying out loud you D00m cryers, I am not asking for a nerf so quit accusing me of doing so. If you look, my first suggestion was a minor buff to scrappers, NOT a nerf to brutes. And if all of you who say I'm trying to nerf your precious brutes, (which I have 2 of at 50 and one at 44 that will hit 50 soon enough, so I am in no way a brute hater or scrapper lover as some have hinted towards) you all also managed to say brutes are hardly ever at the damage cap anyway, so my suggeested CHANGE, not nerf, would not be affecting you much at all.
Besides, as Ideon and EvilGeko pointed out, I did not factor in criticals, which is what I asked for in the first post. I asked if I had missed anything and they pointed that out to me, and that brings scrappers above brute damage when maxed out.
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My DB/ELA Brute seems [edit]fine[/edit]. Though I guess she's more "STAB STAB" and less "SMASH SMASH"|
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
I agree, leave my Brutes alone, we don't need more nerfs. Buff scrappers, I don't frankly care, just leave Brutes alone.
Brutes used to be "SMASH!! SMASH FAST!!" or you'd lose your fury, your anger, your drive. Now Brutes feel "I DON'T WANNA SMASH AS HARD, BUT I KINDA HOLD A GRUDGE". I mean Really o.O Besides OP your test is flawed, it required an outside variable for the Brute out damage the scrapper. |
*Sentence now makes some sense.*
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Scrappers and Brutes are fine 
If a melee type needs love its Stalkers!
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I just don't understand the need for everything to be the same. The game has different ATs for a reason.
@Joshua.
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lol I really should try getting another melee toon w/ a weapon to 50. My only one is a Bane, does that count? If spines count, I want my Spines/Ice Armor Brute now plz!!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
My DB/ELA Brute seems. Though I guess she's more "STAB STAB" and less "SMASH SMASH"
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I don't know. My very first brute was a DM/FA. Loved the combo, and it only got abandoned and deleted because at the time, my computer at that time could not handle redside (maybe I should remake...hmmm).|
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
lol I really should try getting another melee toon w/ a weapon to 50. My only one is a Bane, does that count? If spines count, I want my Spines/Ice Armor Brute now plz!!
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However, I'm side tracking, my point is Dark Melee (to me) felt less "SMASH SMASH", and more "smoosh smoosh grab and tickle"
Good combo, but lacking the power one feels from other melee sets (if that makes sense to anyone else).
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[sarcasm] Agreed, they should eliminate Brutes. |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I just don't understand the need for everything to be the same. The game has different ATs for a reason.
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They are too similar to scrappers and never should have been added. The powersets scrappers do not have can just be ported and all is well. [/sarcasm]I suggest replacing them with a an AT that has a melee primary and a buff/debuff secondary. That would be different.
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Precisely. And if the damage between the two were that much closer, then it would make them that much less unique. |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I just don't understand the need for everything to be the same. The game has different ATs for a reason.
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And Tylerst, it was not just a thread of "Oh, I don't like this, let's rant." What it was intended to be (before I got accused of asking for a nerf) was a clarification on why a balance of ATs seemed to not do it's job, and I was asking to be told what it was I was missing, and if there was nothing wrong with what I had thought, then I offered an idea on ways to fix it without causing any major changes (or any changes, really) in how people play their brutes/scrappers. And the first few posts were very helpful and pointed out what I asked for, and it now makes sense to me, unlike the several other posts that followed.
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Fixed. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
[serious] Agreed, they should eliminate Brutes.
They are too similar to scrappers and never should have been added. The powersets scrappers do not have can just be ported and all is well. [/serious]I suggest replacing them with a an AT that has a melee primary and a buff/debuff secondary. That would be different. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I thought the balance did do the job.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Precisely. And if the damage between the two were that much closer, then it would make them that much less unique.
And Tylerst, it was not just a thread of "Oh, I don't like this, let's rant." What it was intended to be (before I got accused of asking for a nerf) was a clarification on why a balance of ATs seemed to not do it's job, and I was asking to be told what it was I was missing, and if there was nothing wrong with what I had thought, then I offered an idea on ways to fix it without causing any major changes (or any changes, really) in how people play their brutes/scrappers. And the first few posts were very helpful and pointed out what I asked for, and it now makes sense to me, unlike the several other posts that followed. |
Scrappers are less survivable but dish out more damage.
Brutes do less damage but are more survivable.
In a team setting, while I think it was shown the Scrapper will tend to do more damage at the damage cap, than a Brute will at their damage cap, due to crits...lets assume that's not always true for a second...one has to remember, it's a team setting.
So...Brutes are more buffable on teams. Not to big a deal really. If a Brute is buffed up that much, and a stalker is buffed up that much, the team is usually in the WIN category anyways.
And when a team gets that much buffage, I find melee tend to take a backseat...6 good Corrs and 2 melee toons, usually make the 2 melee toons look like they're just taking up space.
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The BrandX Collection
I know brutes recently had their fury and damage cap changed so that scrappers would be dealing higher damage than them, but something crossed my mind the other day. If both a scrapper and a brute are at the damage cap, the brute still outdamages the scrapper, even with the lowered brute cap.
Brute base damage is at .75 and caps at 775%
Scrapper base damage is at 1.125 and caps at 500%
.75*6.55=4.9125 at max damage buff for brute
1.125*4=4.5 at max damage buff for scrapper
So if say, a claws/wp brute and a claws/wp scrapper are both on a team and that team has anything with kinetics in it, and is high enough level to use FS, then the brute will be doing more damage than the scrapper and also be more survivable than the scrapper.
From what I can tell, that means one or more of the following three things needs to happen so scrappers out damage brutes and brutes out live scrappers.
1.)Scrappers need a higher damage cap
2.)Brutes need a lower damage cap
3.)Scrappers need a higher base damage scale
Those are listed in order of what I consider most likely to happen, 1 being most likely and 3 being least likely.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Perhaps I am missing something here, but it seems like the devs overlooked that when adjusting brutes in i18.