I'm making a note here: Huge Success


Bionic_Flea

 

Posted

This Saturday marks two months since Issue 18 was released, bringing with it the market merge many people claimed would bring doom to the game.

It's reasonable to say that many new systems the developers have introduced over the years have not been quite as well received or successful as hoped. PvP was unbalanced and buggy from the start, and all attempts to improve it have just made things worse. Base raids and IoP's never worked properly, and bases themselves have always felt like a system that was slapped together and badly needs a rebuild from the ground up. Even the fantastic Mission Architect system has been beaten up in the effort to reduce abuses of the system.

The markets and inventions, on the other hand, have brought a whole new dimension to the game and, despite a bug or two with specific IO's, or wailing and gnashing of teeth from players who want everything but don't want to learn how to get it, the market and inventions have been a huge success and arguably the best additions, as far as mechanics go, the game has ever had.

Blueside, that is. Redside, the market has always been less stellar. It worked and those who knew how were certainly able to play that market, but no one can deny that there were serious supply shortages. I don't think there was ever a shortage of capital, and certainly demand was high, but supply was always limited and therefore that market was far more volatile and unpredictable.

I'm a villain - ever since City of Villains was released, I have spent far more time in the Rogue Isles than I have in Paragon City. I have four level 50 heroes, compared to at least a dozen level 50 villains. All my inf and all my interest is on that side of the game, so the volatility of that market has always been a thorn in my side. I've played that market but never seriously, because I kept getting scared that I was going to lose big (I did get caught holding a bag full of Impervium Armors that had dropped to less than half what I paid for them at one point - that was my worst investment ever). I was one of the folks begging for a market merge that I was told could never happen.

I've been playing the market seriously ever since Issue 18 dropped almost two months ago, and I've yet to have a real, serious loss. I've never been caught holding a bag of enhancements or salvage that I can't at least break even on. I'm making inf without even thinking about it, and I'm always able to buy what I want for my builds (although it can take time on a lot of mid-level range stuff).

So no doom.

This is a triumph, devs. Thanks.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

It's hard to overstate my satisfaction with issue 18.


 

Posted

But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardan View Post
But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
And the buying gets done
And you make more than some
Of a big stinkin' pile of inffffffff


 

Posted

doom.


 

Posted

I really want the people who were predicting doom to come explain what they thought would go wrong. I'm just curious.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I really want the people who were predicting doom to come explain what they thought would go wrong. I'm just curious.
Given that the largest detractor was Positron, good luck on getting a
meaningful response.

As for me, while I fully understood (and supported) the rationale for a merge, one
wrinkle causing me some reluctance was the fact that pre-merge, I could have
twice the workable niches (a hero and a villain each working, say Performance
Shifters, for instance). That made tracking and logistics easier for me, personally,
and also helped sate my Ebil Greed but isn't much of a justifiable reason
for keeping the markets separate, and less healthy.

But, I didn't mind twice the profits for less effort while they were separate.


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

I made a couple 50-100 million inf errors in acquiring stock before the merge, but I haven't been trying seriously to earn. That issue's been a total shrug compared to GLEEMAIL, which brings me glee, because I've been able to specialize each of my retired toons into reservoirs of useful rares. When I need a Stealth IO--whichever side, including Praetoria--I hit my stealth-holdin' toon; when I need a +end proc, I hit Ensign Uzbekistan (he has Shield Breaker C's, too); &c ad Obliteratum.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
I could have
twice the workable niches (a hero and a villain each working, say Performance
Shifters, for instance).
Aha! It was you! You were warring with the Ensign!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I really want the people who were predicting doom to come explain what they thought would go wrong. I'm just curious.
I didn't cry doom over it. But the biggest concern of merger was the disparity of the size of the two economies. (See West Germany's rocky integration of East Germany; or, the integration of smaller Euro countries (like Greece) with the big powerhouses.)

When the decision was made to allow side-switching, Posi and crew decided to still keep the economies separate by stripping those who switch. This was a headache to code.

Then a third economy (Praetoria) was being added: new market, new currency, new switching problems. This exponentially increased the coding nightmare.

And so, the decision was made to allow switchers to keep it all, and for full trading between players, and to expedite it with Gleemail (cause even people with one account found ways to sugar-daddy their newbies).

And once that was decided, then there was no other choice but to fully merge the economies which meant merging the markets.

The concern of one economy overwhelming another becomes mitigated when there is only one economy and toons freely move back and forth between economic resources.

So, the answer is: until there was side switching, a market merger was risky. And now that there is side switching, a market merger was inevitable.


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
I didn't cry doom over it. But the biggest concern of merger was the disparity of the size of the two economies. (See West Germany's rocky integration of East Germany; or, the integration of smaller Euro countries (like Greece) with the big powerhouses.)

When the decision was made to allow side-switching, Posi and crew decided to still keep the economies separate by stripping those who switch. This was a headache to code.

Then a third economy (Praetoria) was being added: new market, new currency, new switching problems. This exponentially increased the coding nightmare.

And so, the decision was made to allow switchers to keep it all, and for full trading between players, and to expedite it with Gleemail (cause even people with one account found ways to sugar-daddy their newbies).

And once that was decided, then there was no other choice but to fully merge the economies which meant merging the markets.

The concern of one economy overwhelming another becomes mitigated when there is only one economy and toons freely move back and forth between economic resources.

So, the answer is: until there was side switching, a market merger was risky. And now that there is side switching, a market merger was inevitable.
There's some validity to that, though I think the gleemail is the bigger factor, rather than side switching. You could take away side switching and get the same end result, as long as you still have gleemail. Gleemail is a far more efficient means of moving resources from one side to the other.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
I didn't cry doom over it. But the biggest concern of merger was the disparity of the size of the two economies. (See West Germany's rocky integration of East Germany; or, the integration of smaller Euro countries (like Greece) with the big powerhouses.)

When the decision was made to allow side-switching, Posi and crew decided to still keep the economies separate by stripping those who switch. This was a headache to code.

Then a third economy (Praetoria) was being added: new market, new currency, new switching problems. This exponentially increased the coding nightmare.

And so, the decision was made to allow switchers to keep it all, and for full trading between players, and to expedite it with Gleemail (cause even people with one account found ways to sugar-daddy their newbies).

And once that was decided, then there was no other choice but to fully merge the economies which meant merging the markets.

The concern of one economy overwhelming another becomes mitigated when there is only one economy and toons freely move back and forth between economic resources.

So, the answer is: until there was side switching, a market merger was risky. And now that there is side switching, a market merger was inevitable.
But they had announced side switching and for months that side switching would mean losing our inf and it was in that context people said merger would be a problem.

If the only reason they didn't do it was difficulty in coding that shows a pretty sad understanding of the way things work.

Prior to the announcement of merging inf and markets I was not going to roll up more than one or two praetorians and all but one of my villains on each server was going to leave for blue side. And I was hardly the only person saying so.

To me that screams that the issue was not technical as much as it was a complete failure to understand the players.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

ZM: Thanks for the explanation. That does make sense; if the economies were separate, with a single market shared between them, it could have really sucked for some of the players (probably the redside ones). With merged economies, it is no longer an issue.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
To me that screams that the issue was not technical as much as it was a complete failure to understand the players.
I'm sure the Devs are quite aware and understand what players want.

Players need to understand they can't get everything they want for a whole variety of reasons with 'not being understood' pretty low on the list.


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

Posted

Well said, Quasadu.

I played before the market and IOs were introduced. It's hard to imagine going back to that now. I don't think I'd still be playing without them, to be honest, as they've helped me realise a whole bunch of fun character ideas outside the base AT system.

I'd made my first billion and kitted out one group of villains before the market merge, and I'm on my second group now. The difference is night and day. Last night, I bought 6 level 30 Thunderstrikes to complete 3 sets on my new level 27-er, at BUY IT NAO prices, no worries. I couldn't have done that before the merge, I'd have been forced to wait because of the short supply.

Here's to complicated systems involving lots of shiny little icons and numbers. Long may they entertain us!


 

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I agree with Quasadu,

Of all the different new systems that have been added to the game, I think that inventions and the market have been the most well received and added life to the game and a wealth of variety to the players.

Well, and plain old wealth too.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

I'm a villain player myself and only have one hero toon. I decided to slot my scrapper before i18 and was shocked at the hero market on Freedom. It was very inflated.
Vill white salv = 1-1000 inf vs Hero white salv = 10000 - 100000 inf
Vill yellow salv = 5000-50000 inf vs Hero yell salv = 200000-500000 inf. Yes, half a mill
In some cases, there wasn't even ANY Hero salv to buy. 0!
Then came the recipes:
Vill uncommon recipes: 1-10000 inf vs Hero uncommon recipes: 1000000

So I said, forget it, and decided not to slot my scrapper.
If I had any concerns about the market merge, it was to see inflated Heroside prices creep into villain side. 2 months later, I don't see this and am happy with the merge and the email system.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
I'm sure the Devs are quite aware and understand what players want.

Players need to understand they can't get everything they want for a whole variety of reasons with 'not being understood' pretty low on the list.
Keep in mind, though, that this game has a long and rich history of a dev's 'vision' overriding not only what players wanted, but common sense as well. Fortunately, this appears to have ended, with the current management apparently willing to consider options they had not envisioned previously. Things don't always get implemented, and sometimes it's for bad reasons, but the situation is better than in the past.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
this game has a long and rich history of a dev's 'vision' overriding not only what players wanted, but common sense as well.
... and sometimes the players want to keep things broken. Apparently, in the early days, some people tried to keep things broken by faking demofiles... leading the devs to track down the difference for DAYS before figuring it out. I'd be very, very suspicious of "what players wanted" because some of us are lazy, lying, greedy, scumsuckers who are, somehow, willing to put in a lot of work to keep their dishonest gains. It's like those people who steal 200-lb manhole covers to sell as scrap.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
This Saturday marks two months since Issue 18 was released, bringing with it the market merge many people claimed would bring doom to the game.
I'm glad the market was merged, but I never had any problems getting what I wanted on my villains. I have 3 level 50 villains from before I18, and maybe 15 heroes at 50. I've never bothered trying to hit even 1 billion inf; no need to run up the numbers. I just get what inf I need to buy what I want. I do some sugar daddy transactions, but most characters are self-sufficient.

For someone who was patient and could wait a few days or weeks the villain market worked fine. But most people don't think in those terms.

I never believed that a market merge would be detrimental to the villain side, because villains can make influence just as fast as heroes. With access to the same market they can trade and make money off the market, which is probably the biggest equalizer.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned in this equation is the ability to set solo spawn sizes. This helps villainside more than hero-side, I think. Certain Brutes and corruptors can run at +0/x8 very efficiently against a fairly broad selection of mob types. Scrappers might have a slight advantage, and Fire/kins may be as efficient for very specific mob types.

Side-switching and email transfers also make it easier. But the key thing to market equality is equal access to the market. Once you have that, wealth levels will equalize: villains will be able to sell their items to rich heroes and get rich too. I think that's what everyone neglected to consider -- yeah, heroes had a lot more money to spend. And they would be spending it on items sold by villains, which would make villains rich also.

And all the screaming about the high price of common salvage is silly. If people don't want to pay the high price, they should bid low and wait. Or just go bum salvage off mobs in missions (or AE). It's really that simple.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
For someone who was patient and could wait a few days or weeks the villain market worked fine. But most people don't think in those terms.
Yeah I fully admit that isn't me. I never said the villain market didn't work, just that it was volatile and unpredictable. That volatility is why I didn't like playing the villain market - I was scared of it.

Quote:
And all the screaming about the high price of common salvage is silly. If people don't want to pay the high price, they should bid low and wait. Or just go bum salvage off mobs in missions (or AE). It's really that simple.
I agree.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
Yeah I fully admit that isn't me. I never said the villain market didn't work, just that it was volatile and unpredictable. That volatility is why I didn't like playing the villain market - I was scared of it.



I agree.
I hated the villain market because apart from the best stuff and the incredibly common stuff everything else sold/bought at glacial speeds due to the lower population accessing it.


I don't want to wait 6 months for something to sell.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
I hated the villain market because apart from the best stuff and the incredibly common stuff everything else sold/bought at glacial speeds due to the lower population accessing it.


I don't want to wait 6 months for something to sell.

... and if you wanted to buy or sell at level 32, or 35, or 40? Even worse.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.