Most would become supervillains if given superpowers, study says.

Mr. DJ · 10-12-2010 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothic

You are confusing what's natural with human morality. You may think acting morally is the "proper" way human beings should act and that's fine. But there's really absolutely nothing NATURAL about it.

don't get into a morality argument with GG, it has almost never ended well for a thread.

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

Or, to put it more evilly (muahahaha), two people are getting mugged at the same time. No one will be killed, but you can't help both. One victim is a multimillionaire, the other is a low-income person. Who do you save? Why?

And how exactly do I know what they are?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowman

Still, I don't think full evil is any more natural than full good. Human beings ARE pack animals, so the well-being of the "pack" IS a natural concern. Extreme selflessness and extreme selfishness both fall outside of instinctual behavior.

I don't think anyone would go full evil. I think, like how most people use any sort of advantage, to their, uh, advantage, superpowers would mainly be used to cut corners and make life easier for themselves.

People don't want to thrust themselves into situations that will make their lives so much harder to live. Maybe for a while they are willing to do that, but not forever. Military, cops, fireman, all heroes, but eventually, they all want to retire from that job and just worry about themselves.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

And how exactly do I know what they are?

One is being robbed in the rich section of town, one is being robbed in the slums.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

Gehnen · 10-12-2010 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

*Post full of infinite awesome redacted*

Said better than I ever could. You and Lothic (possibly "Logic" typoed?) are my friends!

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

One is being robbed in the rich section of town, one is being robbed in the slums.

So this city I'm in has people segregated by their income?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

So this city I'm in has people segregated by their income?

Most cities have known districts where the poor are concentrated and where the wealthy go.

Socioeconomic segregation, not by the government, but by circumstance.

So, yes.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

Gehnen · 10-12-2010 02:32 PM

In a small way, GG, I envy you. Based on your world view, it seems like you haven't had to make many (if any) hard choices in life.

I hope you never have to, but I would love to see you open up your mind a bit.

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

Most cities have known districts where the poor are concentrated and where the wealthy go.

Socioeconomic segregation, not by the government, but by circumstance.

So, yes.

So how do I know the victim in the slums isn't a property developer looking for a bargain and the victim in the upscale area isn't a homeless person?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

ChaosExMachina · 10-12-2010 02:35 PM

These muggers are each exactly as dangerous, equidistant to you, etc.? Because there's likely some other kind of information in addition to their income.

I also have an urge to back up GG due to the nonsense she's received over making the obvious case that an in-game Stalin/whoever type is EVIL.

A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

Marcian Tobay · 10-12-2010 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

So how do I know the victim in the slums isn't a property developer looking for a bargain and the victim in the upscale area isn't a homeless person?

How would you decide?

Right now, it seems like your answer is "I don't have enough information, so I'd save neither".

Quickly now, they're getting away, and you don't have a Wikipedia/legal file/their motivations clearly stated on your Pip Boy.

Mr. DJ · 10-12-2010 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gehnen

In a small way, GG, I envy you. Based on your world view, it seems like you haven't had to make many (if any) hard choices in life.

I hope you never have to, but I would love to see you open up your mind a bit.

hoping is futile

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

So how do I know the victim in the slums isn't a property developer looking for a bargain and the victim in the upscale area isn't a homeless person?

You have superhearing (you say you have Kryptonian powers) and you recognize the voice coming from the weathly district as Mark Zuckerbook, the billionaire inventor of Bookface.

Over in the slums, it is after normal work hours, and you hear the victim, begging for her life as she says she's working 3 jobs to make ends meet.

Or, whatever way you know that a crime is being committed other than patroling (even Spidey had a police scanner) gives you enough knowledge that the two people are not twins. Maybe it is just simply a man versus a woman being mugged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina

These muggers are each exactly as dangerous, equidistant to you, etc.? Because there's likely some other kind of information in addition to their income.

Yeah, basically, everything is equal, distant, as dangerous, and so on, where the only difference is WHO you are saving. (This is stemming from my original question of earthquake vs. mugger. I scaled it down a bit).

It's not realistic, but I am using it as an example that you cannot save everyone everytime and eventually, you are going to have to make a hard decision based on something other than "I can save more people if I do this." Something outside of a moral black and white.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay

How would you decide?

Right now, it seems like your answer is "I don't have enough information, so I'd save neither".

Quickly now, they're getting away, and you don't have a Wikipedia/legal file/their motivations clearly stated on your Pip Boy.

Superspeed could get me to both of them in time

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

ChaosExMachina · 10-12-2010 02:50 PM

Whoever. Though with such a weird situation that the ONLY information is where they are, it might come to some sort of ridiculous stereotyping about their motivations or natures. The situation you are setting up has no other reason to do either.

A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

You have superhearing (you say you have Kryptonian powers) and you recognize the voice coming from the weathly district as Mark Zuckerbook, the billionaire inventor of Bookface.

Over in the slums, it is after normal work hours, and you hear the victim, begging for her life as she says she's working 3 jobs to make ends meet.

Or, whatever way you know that a crime is being committed other than patroling (even Spidey had a police scanner) gives you enough knowledge that the two people are not twins. Maybe it is just simply a man versus a woman being mugged.

Flying fast enough around the Earth to reverse time is also a useful option when there's more than one area that needs your attention

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Mr. DJ · 10-12-2010 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

Flying fast enough around the Earth to reverse time is also a useful option when there's more than one area that needs your attention

destroying the planet in the process

NarfMann · 10-12-2010 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

Flying fast enough around the Earth to reverse time is also a useful option when there's more than one area that needs your attention

And by referencing one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in an otherwise great movie, you automagically lose. If you'd said that you take a weird cellophane "S" off of your costume and fling it at one of the muggers, you would have retroactively lost every argument you'd ever made, and pre-lost every argument you would ever go on to make in the future.

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina

Whoever. Though with such a weird situation that the ONLY information is where they are, it might come to some sort of ridiculous stereotyping about their motivations or natures. The situation you are setting up has no other reason to do either.

If you mean no reason to save either, GG is positing that it is moral to save everyone as much as possible. That she would try to do good, no matter what. So here is a situation where the motivation is to save someone, but there are two someones and you can save only one.

If you mean there is no reason to stereotype about motivations or natures, there is, because you need to make a decision to go in direction A or direction B. Now, I don't mean stereotype in a bad way, but in a way where you have to assume something to make that decision. Otherwise, you are running off haphazardly and that is perhaps even more dangerous than thinking about it. Either way, in the real world, you are making a decision based on something more than "Pick a direction."

EDIT: I am also setting up the first step in a slippery slope. If you start to favor one direction over the other, you are being less "moral" and more biased. But that is further down the line.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

Mr. DJ · 10-12-2010 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarfMann

And by referencing one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in an otherwise great movie, you automagically lose. If you'd said that you take a weird cellophane "S" off of your costume and fling it at one of the muggers, you would have retroactively lost every argument you'd ever made, and pre-lost every argument you would ever go on to make in the future.

for extra emphasis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoqXoSDws8E

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

Flying fast enough around the Earth to reverse time is also a useful option when there's more than one area that needs your attention

And hey, you can also erase people's memories with a kiss, to protect your own identity. That would be moral right? Even if the person now has a kid by you in later years.

Let's not approach god-level powers, because it becomes much easier to ignore consequences if you have a reset button.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

spice_weasel · 10-12-2010 03:01 PM

i hereby dub GG with the superpower of 'technical avoidance'. it's kind of like 'food made from aerogel'.

Kittens give Morbo gas.

Golden Girl · 10-12-2010 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan

Even if the person now has a kid by you in later years.

That would require some pretty super superpowers

Quote:

Let's not approach god-level powers, because it becomes much easier to ignore consequences if you have a reset button.

That's what Kryptonite is for

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 03:08 PM

If you want a more realistic situation, let's pull from The Dark Knight, slightly altered:

A kidnapper has taken two hostages and hid them in two locations. You know who they are: one is the district attorney, who you have no ties to, the other, is your girlfriend who you are deeply in love with. The maniac tells you where both of them are, but you only have enough time to save one (while you have superstrength, and you are enjoying using it on the maniac, you do not have superspeed).

Who do you save? Why?

If you save your girlfriend, are you being self-centered and less moral?

If you save the DA, is it only because he has some governmental power and if he was just some stranger, you would have saved your girlfriend?

Trying to save them is the moral thing to do, but your decision making might involve some less than "moral" compromises.

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

BafflingBeerMan · 10-12-2010 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

That's what Kryptonite is for

Okay, so Kryptonite, everyone haz it, so you can't reverse time. You get to make one, and only one, choice. And you can't save both.

Pretty standard dilemma in the comic books, and even in real life when there are hostage situations (typically, you can't save both the hostages and the perpetrator).

"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]