we need a pvp dev

Because try as they might, their changes were horrible and all of us that spoke up about it during the beta test for i13(for this is when all their good intentions went bad) were pretty much totally ignored and told that the PvP changes were not made for the PvP community but to get more people into PvP and to make more AT's viable. Now we see where that has taken us. Less AT's viable, powers that act differently between PvP and PvE, builds that to be good cost in the 10's of billions. PvP IO drop rates that are so bad people go into a PvP zone and afk farm for them for days on end and get a couple. (I PvP quite a lot and have gotten 1, yes count it 1 drop ever so how bad is that drop rate). So what they need is someone who understands the PvP system in the game and will work with the community in getting things better. I know you have probably never spent 1 second in the PvP forums but we have had a stickied topic on what changes we need to make PvP better, for a looong time.

Yeah a PvP Dev would be a great addition to their Dev team.

Yeah... and I should totally be the RP dev.

Oh it's going to be like that is it? Okay. I haven't seen any evidence that people use PvP in over 3 years. By that I mean that I haven't seen anybody actually PvPing in front of me, If I haven't witnessed them actually PvPing I can't count them as PvPers. That means using your own logic there are no PvPers in the game to my knowledge, and if there are no actual PvPers then there is no reason to waste any resources on PvP content.

Sigh...you are right Forbin. How silly of me. That is how it is going to be.

So ...

Pay a dev $30k / year to be the PvP guy.

Pay out about another $30k for insurance, infrastructure, benefits and what have you.

Pay to train him past his "drain on resources" phase (anywhere from 6 months to a year, IME).

And hope he brings in enough new subs to cover the cost of everything.

If NCSoft's profit margin right now is bout $5 per sub per month (note: guess!), you're looking at needing about 1000 new subs (minus box sales) for a whole year just to keep this guy going. And you're not recovering other expenses like hardware upgrades. Or things he absolutely can't do like coding.

Ummm ...

Not sure if there's a good business case there based on past experience.

$30k....? What?!

With No experience the average starting pay is $50k. Six years experience pops you up to between $66k and $88k depending on your track record with production.

All of those are national averages, and don't include the Cost of Living hike in North Cal...

-Rachel-

Times are tough

But, IIRC, salaries in gaming tend to skew a little lower than elsewhere because lots of people want to work in gaming.

or just take an already existing mod and add pvp relations to his to do list.

I must resist the lulz...

That's... a massive amount of work to just add on to someone's workload. They didn't hire on a ton of new people to continue putting out the same small content updates they had been... They've all got fairly full plates.

And then asking them to sift through however many "lolPvP" and "13PvSuck" threads and posts for serious and important feedback...?

They'd do -far- better by hiring Je Saist.

-Rachel-

Lol. I'd rather they just remove pvp from the game before doing that.

rachel do you know that CoX is an mmorpg based off of the superhero comic book genre?

rachel do you know that hero vs villain combat is a big part of the superhero comic book genre?

rachel do you know that the hero vs villain combat in this mmorpg is called pvp?

rachel have you ever heard of rppvp?

rachel would it not make sense to have exciting super powered combat instead of lame sucky powered combat for this mmorpg based off of the superhero comic book genre?

rachel you are lead dev and creator for a future mmorpg (*looks at banner in your sig*) so what would you do if you wanted to have exciting pvp combat in your mmorpg? you would have someone work on it right? or do you believe things just magically happen on their own?

rachel do you think NCsoft and Paragon Studios are that poor that they can't hire someone to work on an important aspect of this mmorpg that includes pvp combat?

rachel did you know that there are 80 employees working at Paragon Studios?

rachel do you think that out of those 80 employees they can't find someone capable enough to handle an important aspect of this game properly?


rachel you have a limited POV. you are also biased because you are lead dev and creator of a future mmo (*looks at banner in your sig again*) that will be in direct competition with CoX as well. maybe you don't want CoX to succeed or become a well rounded and exciting mmorpg to play but many here do.

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

Your second paragraph is a direct contradiction of the position you are taking in the first one. People that run the same content mulitple times (especially TF's) are by nature not RP'ers. Unless you want to sell me on the RP that goes into the notion of Katie Hannon getting trapped yet again in the exact same ploy as she was trapped yesterday, and Mary magically (though they are magic based, so that's a start) returning to full strength and requiring another 10x beatdown. Better yet RP me how you just saved the world from Lord Recluses evil plan only to find him trying the exact same thing the next day. One of the only multi-run through content that works from an RP context is Nemesis.

If you repeat the same monumental content (heck even on different characters) you aren't a character/story based RP'er. You might RP successfully in other areas, but not in that one.

"yay we just defeated the god-like Hamidon"..."oh he's back"

Just because I put out a jar of candy doesn't mean I'll be able to lure kids into my van...

If they tried listening to the things that pvp'ers tell them, they wouldn't have attempted nearly all of the half-***, poorly thought out and implemented "PvP" (though most have nothing to do with pvp) reward systems.

I'm all for blaming victims of unfortunate situations...actually I'm not.

then how bout lets save the wasted text space of you pretending you have a point to make?

4 zones and over half a dozen arena venues, each one drawfs the space of the single pocket D location (which is much more frequently used as a travelling short cut than anything else).

If you condensed all pvp action to a single tiny space on each server pre i13 it would have blown pkt d population out of the water...

Also, auto lvl 40 RV pvp event destroyed the dance party.

Is there a praetorian version of you that has had a history of posting correct information rather than being wrong in every single post I've ever seen? That guy would be awesome.

They have. Her name is Mellisa and she is the lead dev. Additionally, all the devs seem to be more RP focused than anything else.
This is something that most companies really struggle with. The flood of "i13 is teh suck" posts is actually highly valuable feedback. It should (but didn't) put up an immediate flag that something isn't right and more focused feedback is required.

Rather than just hoping that the perfect feedback comes in and the right dev in the right mood stumbles across it, smart companies know how to get their consumers to give focused and constructive feedback when they need it.

PS has gotten a bit better at it. Now you see focused threads detailing the category of feedback they want and have it broken down into subjective and objective. That's not bad.

Plenty of excellent feedback was given with regard to i13 and only an idiot would deny it existed. Heaps of non-focused, but consistently negative feedback also came in. Smart developers would have figured out how to get the specific feedback on exactly what was causing problems. It is really really easy to do with a customer base that is as devoted as people using this product, that are also so willing to speak candidly about the product.

It's a feedback goldmine that they largely suck at taking advantage of.
Can you imagine? I've never seen him post anything that was right. I'd support it if only because current pvp is already trash and it would be humorous to see just how badly he'd do in the position.

Edit: my personal position is that the ship sailed a long time ago of building a pvp sector in this game. It is unfortunate because the potential was huge and it looked like they wanted to make a go of it with 4 huge and well detailed pvp zones and a network of arena systems. Unfortunately the saying "if you build it they will come" really only holds true if you finish construction. No one would have come if all he did was knock down the corn field and put a water jug on a bench... though it would have been comical if he then acted baffled as to why they didn't come, sort of like what has happened with pvp in this game.

Yes, I am aware of those facts, Optical Delusion. I'm also aware that while PvP -can- be done well in a gaming environment (as we plan to have in our own, eventually) it's either built in from the get-go or useless.

Balancing imbalanced classes for PvP is a juggling act, especially when they have diffent inherent toughnesses. Without heavy modification of the system every fight becomes "Lolnoob" as a damage class crushes a control/support class or a fight that lasts far too long when it's two "Tank" classes wailing at each other until damage classes come and even out the damage to HP loss ratio.

However you also run the risk of creating a homogenized mess where all classes play almost identically in PvP in order to try and make it fair for the "Weaker" classes.

However, unlike you I realize that each of those 80 members of the Dev team already has a project (or several) they're working on, and adding this sort of thing to their workload would just delay their efforts. I do not think hiring a new employee specifically to sift through a vocal minority's garbage and raving for actual facts from the few PvPers who truly understand where the system needs to be changed is the right answer.

Especially since that developer would basically have his hands tied on getting anything done until he stole time from the various teams who's expertise and effort he would have to call on to make any massive changes.

Do you understand that, or does it need to be broken down further?

-Rachel-

You know I'd actually be all for that.

I remember back when City of Heroes had no PVP at all. Those were the golden days. People ran free, nobody had to worry about "balancing issues". Nobody cared if you had a power that could one-shot bosses. Nobody cared aside from hardcore PVEers if content was too easy. Then PVP came along and everyone went whirling into the abyss of nerfs. I remember my own battle cry back in the day was "****, run! Regen lost aggro on the nerf bat!".

In all honesty I'd be perfectly dandy with having the current PVP zones become "Rogue zones" as I dub them. Open PVP would be a thing of the past for City of Heroes. Instead, they add a simple duel system that is added to your list of actions when selecting a person. If that person is the leader of a team and accepts your challenge, his team is toggled for PVP against you until you are dead, and if you lead a team the same will happen for your team towards them until their team leader is dead. Alignment upon entering the zone becomes neutral to all. You can team with anyone regardless of their standing to work towards new goals that would be provided through content along with the PVP changes (post nuclear Warburg anybody?). Some missions might have you competing with another team to reach a goal first. Some missions might have three teams all fighting each other trying to capture/save (your choice of course) some NPC that lies in the middle of the map and bring him back to your starting point to win. Enemies would of course line the map so you have to fight your way in.

PVP in the open-world sense of the word would be 100% gone. PVP would officially become what it is right now.... a minority. However, instead of removing it completely it would finally accent the rest of the game like every other play style currently does. Once all that was done the devs could finally focus on things that matter like PVE balancing, PVE content, social content, world events, etc etc.

Ahh dearest pipe dreams.

CoH didn't have pvp from the get go. It was added in one of the issues and was actually pretty good iirc.

Then castle or some dev went in to pvp with their io'd out pve toons and got promptly owned repeated in every hole possible. I might have made this up.

And then they nerfed it becuase the system favored people who knew how to pvp too much (lol who would have thought if you do something a lot you get good at it. I guess not the devs handling pvp because 18 issues and they still don't know wtf is going on)

no one is better off by hiring sai for anything.


but honestly, I really don't think it'd be all that bad for a current mod.

keep in mind the way to go about that would be to put for some effort, where the devs actually listen to the 5+ issues of feedback on how to fix everything. All pvpers want is to be heard.
the fact of the matter is, all those threads have degraded into "pvpsucks" and "loli13pvp" threads because there is little point to repeatedly putting effort into a thread that you know won't get taken seriously by the devs because the ones that actually do use numbers, logic, and reason, don't get any attention.

putting a dev(i guess it'd be more of a community rep) to simply relay the information would be a simple task that has apparently proven to much for the current dev team.

Simplest and best possible I can suggest for you to ensure you get the "Right" form of feedback to the Devs.

Make a website. You can get a little "Freebie" site from any number of providers and toss up a few pages of information, numbers, reasoning, and other information without it being ruined by the people who just shout "i12plzkthx" or cross-contamination from people who don't PvP.

Get together with the PvP community and discuss what needs to change. Not just your cadre of friends, but ALL the PvPers, get together combat data from all the thousands of logs you guys have surely got, anecdotal evidence, testimonials, get some of the more mathematically minded and creative individuals to put it into spreadsheets and graph data.

Get a handle on what the variables are and show what happens when each changes. Offer suggestions for alternatives to DR and auto-resistances in PvP that balance the classes out, rather than making Arena PvP the only way to PvP a "squishy" without getting insta-ganked.

Make a listing of common tactical actions (Spike damage, aggro management, force movement through effects or baiting, etc) show how tactics should and can win a fight beyond what bare numbers can do.

Then load it up onto the site with an easy to navigate index and link the Devs to it, then post a link of it in the PvP forums to get some feedback on what you've got, see if anyone can find flaws or make suggestions.

And bam. You've suddenly got an easily referenced and cataloged argument for PvP revamps to give to the devs wrapped up in a bow, making all of their work easier by far, since the data is provided. Toss on a few exclaimers to the site that you relinquish all data and suggestions on the site to Paragon Studios for use as they see fit to cover the legal bases.

Isn't that far better than paying a Dev to sift through all the forums trying to find useful information under all the facepalms and "lolwut" posts? Heck! Put a Sign In Page on it so players can put their Global Handle to it, to show solidarity and back it up so the Devs know that the PvP playerbase is behind the information and changes you offer. Not a petition, mind you, but a symbol of acceptance.

Link me to it, once it's done, and I'll gladly toss @Steampunkette onto the list.

-Rachel-

I know rite? fire tanks herding an arena full of players into a dumpster and burning them all to a crisp was clearly the motivation for numerous, drastic game wide changes.

Issue 4: Colosseum introduced Arenas. Zones came in with COV (BB, SC, WB) with RV introduced the following issue.

"The obvious" being which part? I mean, you've just basically said "Nobody's said why it's broken, other than it being broken" in essence - as "The obvious" is different for everyone.

Want two minor (in the overall scheme of PVP-brokenness) but obvious examples?

1. Taking an inspiration triggers suppression of travel as well as Recovery and Regeneration.

Seriously. Go to a PVP zone. Have your Combat Attributes monitor up, opened to the basic tab. Watch your Recovery and Regeneration rates as you take any inspiration.

2. Travel suppression completely nullifies Teleport.

Yep. If you're a teleporter in a PVP zone, you had better either like walking (which will get you killed) or have an alternate travel power. Taking an inspiration (see 1 above,) attacking or being attacked will completely shut down your travel power - including the temporary Teleport you can buy in SC. This affects all teleporters, specifically noticable if you're a Kheldian with Dwarf form (as you have no access to any OTHER form of travel power, and if you're in dwarf, you probably are wanting the higher resist and mez resistance - there's no mez protection any more in PVP after all) and any Warshade in Human form that doesn't have an alternate way of getting around.

These are the two most obvious/easy to spot ones. I'll let others get into DR, about how generally pointless it is to play as a control AT and expect controls to be effective and the like.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Off of the top of my head I would have to say that the RP player base was and still is larger than the PvP player base in CoX for a number of reasons:

1. The game originally shipped as PvE only with PvP being added a year later.
2. The success of PvP in CoX has been questionable at best.
3. The RP crowd have their own unofficial server.
4. RP is not limited to a handful of zones like PvP.


^

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=238513

we basically already have this in the 4 sticky'd threads in the top of the pvp sections. as well as multiple people PMing various devs with changes/question. thats not the problem.

the problem is the devs/paragon studios/whoever acknowledging theres a problem, listening and communicating with the player base, and ultimately fixing these problems. if you say the word pvp to a dev they instantly say "i can't comment on that".

there has been no (zero, zilch, zip, nada) communication or interaction with the pvp community by the devs to the pvp community since i13 hit(and even before so). until that gets fixed, there is no way to fix anything.

And that's where you're wrong.

You've got the information into their hands. Congratulations. That's all you -can- do. What they -do- with that data is their job. They don't need to talk to the PvPers more in order to find out what's wrong. They know. Now they just need to take time to fix it. Time scheduled by their officers.

All that's left to do for the playerbase is wait. Taking it to the forums won't do anything at this point.

-Rachel-