The bigness!


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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Carnival mallet is pretty large. And the Nemesis rifle #2 (the one with the bayonet) is pretty ridiculously large -- enough so that I almost never use mine except for special costumes.

Except I think you want even larger weapons which I guess means we're going to disagree on this one.
Your 1/2 right as far as guns go the Nemesis and Redding rifles are long but not large on the overall. Even then only the Redding rifle can be colored. Its even worse for the DP I'm still mad we don't get the Legacy Semi-Auto that Thugs does.

For example


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"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."

 

Posted

I'd say no, with exceptions. Look, there's plenty of MMOs out there with that design aesthetic, particularly the terrible cartoon aesthetic that typically goes with it. Same goes for the overly detailed idea of style that most fantasy MMOs go for. There's elements of it here, which is fine, but for the most part, I'm glad this game doesn't look as over blown and stylized like those other games.

Now, if our Devs decided to go big, but kept it visually similar to what we already had, maybe. Also, I wouldn't hate if they pushed the height slider up to Fake Nemesis size. I probably wouldn't use it, but I don't think it wouldn't fit in the game, seeing as there's plenty of in-game characters that are already that size and bigger.

Somebody upthread mentioned that things in-game are already a little bit too big, particularly, in the case of things inside bases. As for that? Yeah, I kind of wish the Devs had the time to take a look at how oversized the game currently is.


 

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"You call those dual swords?

THESE are dual swords."


 

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Now why is it we can't have swords that big?


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Originally Posted by Robo_Knight View Post
Now why is it we can't have swords that big?
because this aint some generic jrpg with swords bigger than your entire body and breasts bigger than your head

also clipping issues


 

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Originally Posted by Robo_Knight View Post
Now why is it we can't have swords that big?
They look silly?

Given her body, when I see that I assume the "swords" are made out of soda cans and aluminum foil.


 

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My opinion?

I've suggested "Strike Gauntlets" as a set and customization option for Shield Defense that are comprised of large hand type armor. Although I'd really enjoy some large gloves for that suggestion, I'd settle for Dwarf/PPD gauntlet sized hands as being perfectly acceptable.

You can even explain the size as being more than just for looks as Shield Defense has a big AoE attack and an aura that increases your damage.

I also suggested a melee set, Death Scythe, which would use a big body-sized scythe as its weapon. I also suggested the secondary effect of that set being a kind of inverse Claws discount that increases END and Rech cost but having improved base damage.

While big, oversized weapons may look comical to some in that it may not do proportional damage for its size, where's the reverse consideration (obviously the Red Cap Dagger shouldn't do as much as the Rikti, right). As is, if we want to do big damage and look the part, the options aren't quite sizing up. I'd love it if they introduced sets with custom options that include bigger sizes with damage/effects to reflect that size, having just the look for some characters would be a nice consideration.


 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Dear god, that looks absolutely ludicrous. They start adding crap like that, I'll have an aneurysm all over you.
Ludicrous but stylish!

Frankly, the original CoH weapons were ludicrously oversized too. Not quite as bad as what you see in a lot of fantasy games, but still too big. Fortunately the devs added a lot of more reasonably-sized weapons, and I ditched those huge legacy weapons in a hurry.


 

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Originally Posted by Mirai View Post
Ludicrous but stylish!

Frankly, the original CoH weapons were ludicrously oversized too. Not quite as bad as what you see in a lot of fantasy games, but still too big. UnFortunately the devs added a lot of more reasonably-sized weapons, and I ditched those huge legacy weapons in a hurry.

Fixed.


Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I've suggested "Strike Gauntlets" as a set and customization option for Shield Defense that are comprised of large hand type armor. Although I'd really enjoy some large gloves for that suggestion, I'd settle for Dwarf/PPD gauntlet sized hands as being perfectly acceptable.
I seem to remember disagreeing with you on that point for God knows what reason, and if I did, I will fully admit I was wrong. In a lot of ways, certain things don't seem to make sense to me when explained, but make a LOT more sense when I actually see them used. In this case, "a large gauntlet" for a shield option is something I would very, very much like to have. That's basically what War uses to block with (you'd think he'd use that bigass sword, but no - he guards with his left hand), and actually seeing it in action, I am in full agreement, possibly in the face of my previous arguments. Make it so!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I also suggested a melee set, Death Scythe, which would use a big body-sized scythe as its weapon. I also suggested the secondary effect of that set being a kind of inverse Claws discount that increases END and Rech cost but having improved base damage.
I probably disagreed with you on that part, too, but again Darksiders changes my mind. I don't have any shots of it as it's a purchasable weapon, but War does indeed have a gigantic scythe as a weapon. Stood up, it's around twice War's height (and he's a pretty big guy already), with a giant curved blade. The old problem as I remember it was the impossibility to stab with a scythe as one might with a spear, but War gets around that by... Not stabbing with it. He has, in fact, I think on the order of five attacks with it: Two horizontal swings, one attach where he throws it forward, spinning rapidly and one attack where he throws it in a circle around himself, spinning rapidly. As it's a big weapon, it's designed to hit multiple foes on every attack, and it looks pretty dang good doing just that.

Having a scythe or another large, two-handed weapon powerset would, in fact, be something I would look forward to very much. I don't much care WHAT it is at this point, as long as it's big.

---

Now, I find myself having to address this again, but I keep seeing people saying "No! Don't want that here!" Why? I understand not liking the concept, but why not have the choice? Honest question here: Do you enjoy and use every costume piece currently in the editor? Do you enjoy every costume that could possibly be made? Do a quick test: go into the editor and hit Random seven times, then tell me if you liked all seven costumes, and if being on a team with seven people who had those exact costumes would not ruin your mood. Because I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the this would bug most people. Much as I like Random as a concept, the editor has the tendency to produce the most hideous, ugly characters I have ever seen in any medium ever.

So why don't I just go play Lineage or WoW or Aion or something? Um... Because those games suck, not to put too fine a point on it. Believe me, if they weren't so horrible, I'd probably play them, but they fail AS GAMES, and I wouldn't pay money just for a character editor. I like City of Heroes, and I want to make characters like that here, for the most part because I feel the settings can accommodate that. I mean, think about it - the Freakshow already have those giant cloven arms and everyone seems OK with that, but the moment I ask that I have one, many people balk and tell me it doesn't fit the setting. I ask for a big sword, and I'm told that it wouldn't fit, despite the fact that Rularuu's Bane is already a pretty big sword (as big as the character, in fact), and Shadow Spider's sword is about as big (but unavailable to players) already. We have big swords in the game, we have big gauntlets, we have big shoulders (check out Romulus Augustulus). But we have so very few of them.

If I want a big sword now, I need to go with Rularuu's Bane. Not only is that a pain to unlock early, but it's always black and largely uncolourable. If I want a big sword that ISN'T Rularuu's Bane, I'm SOL. Granted, something that's TOO ludicrously big, like a car on a stick, would indeed be silly as a persistent weapon, but come now. We're super strong here, aren't we? How is it OK for Super Man to swing a lamp post but not for the Ultimate Warrior to swing a lamp-post-sized sword, just as a random thought?

BABs, Jay, David and the others have already proven that they can design costume pieces that fit within the visual style of the game even when they break away from what the game previously offered. I've no reason to doubt their talent in making big weapons work. In fact, once upon a time BABs said that they were scaling weapons down at the time, but he wasn't opposed to designing big weapons which were meant to be big from the ground up. Aside from the Rularuu sword and possibly the Rularuu axe, this hasn't happened yet. And I'm all the sadder for it.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Also:

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Originally Posted by Mirai View Post
VS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Now, I find myself having to address this again, but I keep seeing people saying "No! Don't want that here!" Why?
I don't see how this is any more complicated than "Because I don't like it". You're asking for opinions, right? I mean, you can put anything into the game that you want under the banner of "It's a choice". High fantasy zones? Throw 'em in. Rubber bicycle horn melee? Go for it. Tanks give a girlish shriek when hit? Of course! Unicorn mounts? You know it. Tickle Defenders? No reason not to.

But given that the development team has limited resources and time, I'd rather they not spend it making things I think look silly when they could be making things I think look awesome.
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Granted, something that's TOO ludicrously big, like a car on a stick, would indeed be silly as a persistent weapon
You seem willing to admit that some things are just silly whether it's a choice or not. Now it's just a matter of determining where that line is for most folks.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I don't see how this is any more complicated than "Because I don't like it". You're asking for opinions, right?
Yes, and I apologise for the way I argued. I shouldn't question people's opinions when that's precisely what I asked for. I suppose, in a way, my reasons for questioning are because I just don't "get it." I'm well aware that to some people, some items and costumes are offensive. I'm no different - all-tights costumes make me roll my eyes. Of course, that's just me. I would never make costumes like these (well, let's say almost never), nor would I really be anxious to see more added to the game, but what I don't get is why people feel it would "ruin the game," so to speak.

Again, not saying it's "wrong" to feel that way, I just want to try to understand why some seem bothered by what other people are able to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
You seem willing to admit that some things are just silly whether it's a choice or not. Now it's just a matter of determining where that line is for most folks.
That's kind of a double-edged sword, though. On the one hand, I freely admit that some things are so exaggerated that they're silly. On the flip side, certain things are great exactly BECAUSE they are silly-exaggerated, and yet still played straight. Someone mentioned that Darksiders in general and War in particular are parodies, but if the were, in fact, played like a parody, I'd have liked it a LOT less. But because these parody-level exaggerations are played completely straight, the game ends up feeling a lot more awesome. In a way, I suppose, because these are the sort of things I always liked, but never expected anyone to take seriously, and the suddenly someone did. One man's parody is another man's prose, I suppose.

Where that loops back into City of Heroes is that I think our game is in a very unique position in all of gaming history that I'm aware of. We have a setting that can, potentially, accept ANY concept ever created regardless of its actual origins or inspiration. I don't think any other game that has actually had graphics has ever given us this much creative freedom. Basically, if you can imagine it, you can make it and it will fit right in. Aliens, wizards, pirates, ninja, mobsters, soldiers, robots, plants, mutants, ghosts, monsters, elves... The list of even the most general type of concepts is boundless, which is why I always encourage the expanding the pool of designs the physical character creator supports, even if that's to include concepts I, personally, do not enjoy making. For instance, I'm not a fan of steampunk fiction (like, at all), but I would still argue for the inclusion of more steampunk pieces, because the greater the variety of possible designs is, the more value the game has.

On the flip side, I've heard the "arguments of denial." No anime-inspired costumes! No fantasy costumes! And, of course, the ever-present: No furries! These are the ones that frustrate me because they just serve to bar other people's options just because they consist of pieces some people wouldn't use. I kind of expected I'd get that with the bigness, but I guess I didn't handle it quite as well as I should have. I apologise.

Suffice it to say that I'll stop arguing that particular point. I really do want to hear how well people like "bigness" as a concept and where their personal boundary between cool and silly lies. I would, however, appreciate it if we can refrain from threatening repercussions if fantasy/anime/big stuff is added. I can accept dislike just fine without an ultimatum attached.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Big weapons are stupid, unwieldy and cumbersome and look bloody awful IMO. The broadsword currently available is already too big.



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

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Seeing as how I want Dual Blades to have the option of the Rularuu Broadsword Skin, how the only way I'll play Broadsword is with the Legacy Broadsword or the Rularuu Broadsword skin, and I use Match Compensators for Dual Pistols because they're the biggest you can get, i have to AGREE!

I want some bigger weapons!

I love how CoH looks more serious than the other game, but even still, I think it can stand to give a few bigger weapons. It's a comic book staple that works when the art with it works.

I have faith BABs can pull that off.

And that's with keep with current weapon animations.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

I think there is a bigger that could be achieved well in this game.
I don't think it is nearly as large as some of the examples here, but I do think there is room for some more.

I'd like to see the huge models able to be a bit bigger all around (Especially with the hands and feet and head).
And really, I'd like that for all models. We've talked about that... glove and boot options for truly massive hands and feet. That fits the general CoH style.

I definitely would love to see even taller options for characters... but I don't know that it would ever happen (It opens up a lot of problems... mostly by closing off doors, since they'd be too small).

As for weapons, that pic of the thin girl holding those two silly fantasy swords... That is just a bad example. It looks bad.
Sam's follow up with the Mutant Pack swords is not anywhere near as ridiculous, in my opinion. The swords just are curved and shaped in a better way than those from whatever game that other one is from. And the way they are being held just looks completely different.
I have no idea how they animate in the other game and all and that pic may just be a bad representation of it... but only having that to go by, those are my opinions on that.


I think expecting or wanting some major size beyond what we have for this game is likely unreasonable, just from the standpoint of the technical hurdles and it not being bloody likely that they'll try and shoe-horn such things in. We're never going to see huge Transformer-types as player characters in CoH. (I know, never say never)

I'm not a fan of the ginormously over-sized weapon style... However, I am not opposed to it existing in this game for those who want it, so long as it fits within the artistic style that does exist throughout this game.
That style is broad, indeed, but it still exists.

So, I don't have much to say about this other than... I think there is room for more bigger stuff... but probably not too much nor too big.


@Zethustra
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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

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Another problem I would have with "big" weapons is that we would probably only get one big model per weapon, so only one big sword, only one big mace (as if they aren't big enough already), only one big gun, etc. And the one big sword we get might not be aesthetically pleasing to everyone because of other design decisions. If they made it look like the legacy broadsword but bigger, for example, it would be horrible to me since that sword looks like one of those boffer swords they use in Live roleplaying, that is made out of plastic foam.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
I'd like to see the huge models able to be a bit bigger all around (Especially with the hands and feet and head).
And really, I'd like that for all models. We've talked about that... glove and boot options for truly massive hands and feet. That fits the general CoH style.
This is an important point to restate: I know that when I say "big" people immediately think "big SWORDS," because that's kind of a staple suggestion, but I more mean "big everything" to include boots and gloves first and foremost. I have long had a problem with how larger boots and especially gloves are done in this game. Let me explain:

Gloves: The Large and Banded gloves are bigger, but in a "bad" way. They give you a very big forearm, but leave your actual hand size almost the same, and your actual wrist narrow and tiny. To my mind's eye, big gloves should equate big hands... Only it doesn't. What's worse is that even the ludicrous excess that is Large Robotic suffers from the same problem - they have large, bulbous forearms, but they still have the same sized hands.

Now, I know, I know. We need to retain the hand size the same because it has to grasp things, like swords and gins and things. Well you know what? It'd look weird, but I say let it. Because Large Robotic gloves already look weird with normal-sized weapons. Hell, they look weird even with BIG weapons, let alone normal-sized ones. The costume creator does and always will have the capacity to produce some unappealing stuff, but that should hold options back.

Boots: The bigger the boot, the more tumorous it looks. Giant calf muscles, small legs, tiny ankles. Again for the same reason as above, I would think big boots would translate into big feet, but it doesn't. It translates into big calves. We didn't even have a decent option for, what? Four years after Launch? The first big option we got was Enforcer boots, and heavens knows these have a whole host of problems with them. But they have the right shape - big feet, no ankles, chunky look. We now have another option with Going Rogue - PPD boots, and believe me, I appreciate it. But that still leaves my giant robot without options, other than boots which turn his feet into crucifixes. And even then only if I can work in other Enforcer bits, because those boots don't match with anything other than other parts of their own set.

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I definitely would love to see even taller options for characters... but I don't know that it would ever happen (It opens up a lot of problems... mostly by closing off doors, since they'd be too small).
This shouldn't be a problem. Character collision boxes are static and independent of actual model size. That's why my giant robot can pass through office doors when he doesn't look like he could fit sideways. That said, it could obscure vision somewhat, especially in caves, but... You know what? I'm going to go ahead and say something big:

If I'm allowed to be as tall as a Fake Nemesis, then I will fully support any and all people who clamour for removing blue/brown caves from the game. Anyone who's seen me post recently should know that that's saying a lot coming from me.

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I'm not a fan of the ginormously over-sized weapon style... However, I am not opposed to it existing in this game for those who want it, so long as it fits within the artistic style that does exist throughout this game.
That style is broad, indeed, but it still exists.

So, I don't have much to say about this other than... I think there is room for more bigger stuff... but probably not too much nor too big.
Honestly, I don't think we need stuff that's actually much bigger than what we have now. That wasn't the point. The point was that we already have big stuff, just so very little of it, and not all of it very good. I'd be happy if we never got gloves bigger than Large Robotic, I'd be happy if we never got a sword longer than Rularuu's Bane. That's just fine. But can we have some more options like those. Even one alternative to the Rularuu weapons would be very welcome, even one alternative to the Large Robotic (that isn't Enforcer) would be very welcome.

And you know what else? Big swords doesn't need to equate with long swords, not necessarily. "Fat" swords of the same total length would be just as welcome. Rularuu's Bane is a good example of a VERY broad sword, but for women it's paper thin. It's literally invisible when you look at its cross-section. I don't want a sword long enough to cut down aircraft from the ground. I want a sword that looks HEAVY, which none of the ones we have really do. Rularuu's Bane kind of does, but it's very thin across (why a two-dimensional blade?) and the Legacy Broadsword for women does, because its blade is so thick, but the others? Nowhere even close.

OK, correction, the Organic Armour blade kind of does look the part. Not so much for women, where everything scales down into nothingness, but for Males and especially Huge, for whom weapons scale UP (?!?) from Legacy.

We already have big stuff in the game. It's just that every time I make a big character, I keep using the same costume items over and over again. In fact, just recently I realised that there is no large glove option that doesn't look tech. Why is that? Where's my Large Medieval glove or Large Organic glove?

*edit*
It occurs to me... They could make this a Booster Pack. Just a whole pack of all-around big stuff. People who don't like big stuff don't buy it, and I get to shell out even more money on trinkets


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

And people get onto me for saying I'm against something that doesn't effect me

Still for the bigger weapons!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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This poses an interesting question,

Do you think it's possible they could create new model pieces to give us the 'bigness'? Probably more difficult with heads but we could have a new model type, 'Giant' for gloves and boots. And all that model would be is the aesthetic of simply big hands and feet to make up for the small size of the default extremities. It would require having to remap all the textures but it could give us what this thread is suggesting.

I say heads would be more difficult mainly because there's differences between a normal head, and one that uses hats, helmets or even the monsterous models. A 'Giant' category head would pretty much have to be what Masks (with hair) already is, just bigger. Unless the devs put in the extra work to have 'Giant hat' and 'Giant helmet' categories on top.

I'd love to have giant hand and foot options where it's bare, no wraps, just skin!



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Meh. Big is for wusses. I'm all about the tiny this year.





The results will be huge I tell ya!


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
As for weapons, that pic of the thin girl holding those two silly fantasy swords... That is just a bad example. It looks bad.
Sam's follow up with the Mutant Pack swords is not anywhere near as ridiculous, in my opinion. The swords just are curved and shaped in a better way than those from whatever game that other one is from. And the way they are being held just looks completely different.
I have no idea how they animate in the other game and all and that pic may just be a bad representation of it... but only having that to go by, those are my opinions on that.
I dunno...

Looking at the pics, the girl has swords about 2/3 the size of her body dual wielded but it's a tad hard to fully measure as the perspective is skewed (the sword in the foreground is probably angled to look bigger than it is while the sword held up is on the same ground as her body).

Sam's Mutant seems to have a pair of blades a bit more than 1/2 the size of his body. I'd estimate it at .55 to .6 times the size of the body. The size gap between what we get in CoH and those other ridiculous games is less than 15%? That small?

the shape of the blades is irrelevant to me, as we're not asking for specific models, just discussing size. And she doesn't appear to be holding it any more odd than what we'd do during a Dual Blade attack (by the way, have you seen the ridiculously FUGLY ninja run stance with 2 blades out that we get? Seriously, fix that ****). Now if she was using a reverse grip or some such with a weapon that size, or flipping it around off her boobs or something then yeah, that'd be silly. AFAIK, she just looks like she's about to swing. But there's not much to go on with just a pic so no real reason to go any further with that.

I don't know if Sam or anyone here is asking for a city block sized sword...probably just more swords that are 'fat'. We've got nice 'length' swords but most are very thin. When looking at the OP picture, what I notice is the 'mass' of the weapon, not really the length (as the perspective of that pic belies it size). With a weapon that's fat enough, it has more room for tapered razor or serrated edges, embroidered symbols and stuff that you can actually *see* without needing to zoom right up to it.

Just look for yourself:


Not sure if one is actually 'longer' than the other but the organic BS has a nice feel to it because the blade is so big. It's nice. And it's definitely not immersion breaking just different. And while the fantasy sword is much thinner, it's actually one of the fatter of the BS models.

That said, some options for a few 'longer' weapons wouldn't be that bad. So long as the length is within reason (single hand weapons not longer than the character), I don't see how it'd be particularly ridiculous...unless there are no characters with super strength in this game.

PS: for those weapons as long as the character, I'd mainly be looking for such models on Broadsword/Mace/BA with some 2-handed animations. Remembering some of the reasons the BS swords can't be used for the Kat sets, it's because the swords aren't long enough to be wielded with 2 hands (or specifically, the handles). So make some bigger swords with bigger handles and swing 'em with 2 hands...because, to me, the current Broadsword set looks ridiculous to me because it has such big orange numbers but such weak animations.


 

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Curious, how big is this 'Fake Nemesis' anyway that could be clipstastic with doorways anyway? How much bigger are they to an eight-foot character?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasoh View Post
Bigness in City of is not an idea that thrills me.
ditto.

I played Warhammer 40k from the get-go until they finished lobotomizing it with the 3th edition revamp. I still follow the miniatures lines in a casual way, a few of my friends still collect and send me links now and then.

The evolution of the miniatures proceeded in a way I think Sam would have loved, but which I found irritating and ultimately boring. How do you make people buy your 'new' race, or revamp of an old line? Make everything BIGGER! 40K wasn't ever about realistic scale (compare some of the original minis to contemporary offerings from a company like Ral Partha), but as time passed they got bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER, to the point of parody.

We can see a bit of this with the new Demon Summoning MM set, with pets that have a bigger 'footprint' and more ostentatious auras and animations than the 'original' sets.

I'd prefer things keep mostly with the scale set by the legacy content. IMHO 'bigger' is a lazy design choice and not one I'd like to see gain any more of a foothold here than it has already.


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