Big explosions or simple cowboys?


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Posted

For my part, I think it's more about the "why." There should be a good reason why a character does what he's doing, and that's simply not apparent in Dual Pistols. I mean, what benefit is gained by throwing your pistols 6 feet in the air when you could just, oh, I dunno, shoot them? I could accept it as showing off if it happened, say, one time out of ten when the power activated. But every time, it's just a way of padding out the animation with useless fluff that's stupid and pointless.

Kinetic Melee, for its part doesn't bother me. You can see the character swirling their hands around gathering the energy up, and then releasing it. There's a point to the flashiness. Dual pistols doesn't have that. It just looks like a person who has absolutely no idea how guns work, and so they spin them around and throw them in the air, and hope against hope that somehow they'll stumble along into a way to make the bullets come out.


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Originally Posted by Basilisk View Post
For my part, I think it's more about the "why." There should be a good reason why a character does what he's doing, and that's simply not apparent in Dual Pistols. I mean, what benefit is gained by throwing your pistols 6 feet in the air when you could just, oh, I dunno, shoot them? I could accept it as showing off if it happened, say, one time out of ten when the power activated. But every time, it's just a way of padding out the animation with useless fluff that's stupid and pointless.
Well, as a counterpoint, "bullet ballet" is a pretty big part of the action genre- heck, even the brutish tough guys like John McClaine are more often shown shooting while diving, leaping forward, or spinning around... Even in superhero comics, the heroes that use pistols are often shown firing them in dynamic mid-action poses that make firearms instructors scream in frustration. It's pretty much part and parcel of the genre. Only the quick-to-die bad guys ever seem to have solid footing and proper firing posture...

On the other hand, the archery heroes in comics, while capable of trick shots, often show deliberation and planning, selecting what they do with their decisive shot, which could explain some of the boring nature of that animation set


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But here's the thing: What do YOU prefer? I know it's not fair to ask such a binary question, but if you had to lean towards either choice, which would you pick? The extravagant, excessive fanciness and big explosions of off-the-wall character power levels, or the more believable, more relatable action levels of more human characters?
I always prefer the final confrontation between two adversaries with swords, hands or pistols rather than a Bay-splosion. Even if the bad guy gets shot about 100 times when he suddenly pops up after being "beaten" like the end of the first Lethal Weapon movie,


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Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
I always prefer the final confrontation between two adversaries with swords, hands or pistols rather than a Bay-splosion. Even if the bad guy gets shot about 100 times when he suddenly pops up after being "beaten" like the end of the first Lethal Weapon movie,
agreed.


 

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A little of both. It all depends on the character I'm playing at the time.

I like flash-bang, Ka-Whop, Bash, (Freem!?) with my Blasters and Corruptors. After all, it's what they do well. But, it doesn't fit so well with others.
Earlier someone gave an example of an Empath having trouble "healing people to death." Actually, that's exacly with my Empathy Defender carries a bow. She has one "Superpower," she heals people really well. Useful, but a bit boring. I was looking for a logical attack power that fit with that idea and, since Pistols had not come into existance yet, Archery it was.
Playing with her is more of a "Cowboy" gunfight feel. Shoot, duck, dodge, shoot again. Granted, she has explosive arrows, but it still feels "plausible."


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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Then why ask the question?
I should have specified, but I was looking for a discussion on the subject of WHY we like these things. Simply listing movies or games in a "my dad can beat up your dad" fashion just serves to elicit "I disagree," because there's nothing to discuss in "I like this movie." Why? Why does that movie work but this movie not? What does it have in it that the other doesn't? What does it do right?

If you don't enjoy over-analysing your, though, I have no problem with it. It's just hard to work with strict opinions.

*edit*
But I will admit - it was out of line for me to do that.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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More to point:

I just ran across a War Walker. You know those things just hanging on a conveyor belt in the mission with Metronome? I thought they were just for show, but no! I actually ran across one in the mission against Nightstar, and that thing... Is... AMAZING! Huge like I couldn't believe (bigger than a Zeus Titan!), and equipped with what I can only describe as "awesome" attacks. I didn't see it fire its guns much, but I did see it throw quite a few VERY heavy punches. Heavy enough to leave massive cracks in the ground, shake my camera and totally blow me away. That War Walker looked heavy, and in everything it did, it FELT heavy. Even when it died and collapsed to its knees, THAT shook the screen!

Here I am talking about "big explosions" and I haven't even seen the most impressive standard enemy (boss class) in the game? Holy hell! I want one of these! No, scratch that, I want to BE one of these! Pretty please?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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It's not a simple one or the other for me, Sam. It's all based around context.

For some fights, it's going to be John McClane vs Karl in the upper floors of Nakatomi Tower "You should have heard your brother squeal!" This is along the more realistic lines, and I would expect these types of fights to be more common.

For other fights, yeah, the whole 'gone nuclear' is what I like to see. These should be less common, finale fights. If it's utilized as a common fight practice, then it really lessens the impact of it.


 

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I have been saying for years that the argument that some folks just don't feel "super" stems from the effects our powers have on the environment more than the damage numbers themselves. My self destruct vet power looks much more powerful than my tier 9 Nova blast. I love both scales, but what I love more is to see both work well in the same environment.


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
More to point:

I just ran across a War Walker. You know those things just hanging on a conveyor belt in the mission with Metronome? I thought they were just for show, but no! I actually ran across one in the mission against Nightstar, and that thing... Is... AMAZING! Huge like I couldn't believe (bigger than a Zeus Titan!), and equipped with what I can only describe as "awesome" attacks. I didn't see it fire its guns much, but I did see it throw quite a few VERY heavy punches. Heavy enough to leave massive cracks in the ground, shake my camera and totally blow me away. That War Walker looked heavy, and in everything it did, it FELT heavy. Even when it died and collapsed to its knees, THAT shook the screen!

Here I am talking about "big explosions" and I haven't even seen the most impressive standard enemy (boss class) in the game? Holy hell! I want one of these! No, scratch that, I want to BE one of these! Pretty please?
One of the biggest omissions in this game is that sense of weight. Exploded cars and broken vault doors slide around like they are made of tissue.


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Posted

Sound would help with that - a lot of things in the game don't sound very heavy when they fall over or break up.
A good example would be the 3 subs you destroy in Faultline - they don't sound like huge chunks of metal being torn apart, and the sound of you hititng them doesn't even sound metalic.
Also, the Kronos Titan sounds the same as a Clockwork Prince when it falls over

EDIT: The Kronos Titan should really fall over with a massive boom along with a screen shake, and then give a 3-5 second warning to get clear, similar to the warning about Protean's signature power, and then explode, causing another screen shake and leaving burning debris everywhere - sort of like the AT-ATs blew up when they were tripped by the tow-cables.


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Ah a why I like that showdown versus the Bay-splosion.

Emotional content. When Luke destroyed the Death Star it was cool but a showdown between equals has more meaning for me. I'll watch Uma and Lucy Liu over and over in Kill Bill (as well as her other one on one fights) or Bruce Lee versus Mr. Han or any western's final showdown with a lot more interest.

Now at the end of Kick-*** when he bazookas Frank D'Amico after Hit Girl has been stopped that is fine but I would have preferred she pull out some way to win on her own. Still a better conclusion than had they simply tossed a couple grenades into his place and blown it all up.


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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton View Post
I have been saying for years that the argument that some folks just don't feel "super" stems from the effects our powers have on the environment more than the damage numbers themselves.
Meaningful and extensive environmental interaction and destruction is the grail for truly super superhero action in my opinion.

I can stomp my foot hard enough to shake the earth, but I can't knock over cubicles in an office map. I can call down lightning from the sky, but it leaves no damage. I can tear up concrete and throw it, but I can't punch through a plaster wall.

Even the two newest super hero MMOs only scratch the surface with environmental interaction as a mere afterthought.

I dream of a future superhero MMO that can deliver the same environmental destruction found in last gen titles like Battlefield Bad Company 2 and Red Faction 3, be it in the live world or in instances. The game that lets me throw cars, punch people through walls(and be thrown through them) and knock over buildings is the game I want to be playing. The devs who deliver that tech and solve the design challenges to make it happen will get my money on a silver platter.



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Posted

I like big, solid, visceral feeling moves, which is why I'm such a fan of Broadsword.

I don't like big dumb flashy gimmick attacks, which is one of many reasons why I don't watch japanese children's cartoons.


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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Another example, if Cyclops runs across an object that his optic blast cannot break through or move, he should be thrown backwards when he tries it.
Logical. For example, if you fire a machine gun at an object that's too hard for the rounds to penetrate it sends the machine gun flying backwards. Same thing that happens if you accidentally direct a fire hose at a wall instead of the window: the whole truck gets pushed away. One of Cyclops' signature tricks is to ricochet the blast off multiple surfaces. It should rock his head back for every bounce. Totally reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
That's probably the easiest flaw to point out in most fighting animes, and in a field that gets as goofy as this, that's saying a lot.

I think what a lot of anime fights look like is card games, because that's where some of the oldest ones actually come from.
Would it be worth mentioning that many action anime and tokusatsu shows from the early Seventies on have featured combatants shouting their signature moves every time they use them? The super robot shows seemed especially susceptible to this. i guess it was to emulate all those 1970s collectible card games.

Anyway, i appreciate the use of both big cowboys and simple explosions in the game depending on my mood.


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Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost View Post
I like big, solid, visceral feeling moves, which is why I'm such a fan of Broadsword.

I don't like big dumb flashy gimmick attacks, which is one of many reasons why I don't watch japanese children's cartoons.
IRL, I always was a big, solid, precise, but... well, not slow but... deliberate hitter, my styles is more like a bear's than a cat's. I also rely more on my ability to deflect/absorb a hit than dodge it. I hate that. I've always admired those agile in body and mind- the ones that can't necessarily land as heavy of a blow, but have the precision, the speed, and the presence of mind to plan combinations and anticipate foe action so incredibly well.

This game (as with most MMO's) lacks solid dodge animations. I know the reasons WHY someone with superreflexes keeps feet so damn firm on the ground, but it does leave lacking the FEEL of agility. Fortunately, the offensive powers and the ability to maneuver while fighting help to make up for this.

That's why I love many / most of dual pistols animations (barring empty clips- holding the guns in wrist-breaking directions just bugs me something fierce... at least in most of the other shots, the gun is held somewhat solidly). It has the flourish of agility, the direction-changing spins can be cinematically attributed to a hero immersed in the battlefield, swiftly turning to face anything from anywhere. The afterimages following behind the character hint at matrix-like agility. Its bullet-ballet, yes, and it makes no sense in reality, but it sells the style rather well.

Now, I could easily see a pistols set that didn't have the flourish, but had something that felt like... well, Unforgiven's gunplay.... Clint wouldn't shoot like our current powerset, thats for sure. I'm still happy with what we got.




On the other hand, though, I haven't seen the one Samuel mentioned, but I can already tell it wouldn't be in my top ten. No matter how great it is, there's just something I despise about the whole "bigger...badder..." mindset. I've seen it so overused to hide story flaws that I've come to hate even the hint of it when used with solid stories.


 

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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Logical. For example, if you fire a machine gun at an object that's too hard for the rounds to penetrate it sends the machine gun flying backwards. Same thing that happens if you accidentally direct a fire hose at a wall instead of the window: the whole truck gets pushed away.
Bullets aren't connected to the machine gun but Cyclops' blasts are shown as a continual beam. And pointing a fire hose at a wall will absolutely cause pressure to force the nozzle (i.e. his head) backwards.

I could be missing details about Cyclops but you picked a couple really bad examples for making your point.


 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Truth is, I find Archery and Assault Rifle completely boring.
In regard to archery, here are some ideas for potential new animations.


 

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I'm solidly in the cowboy camp. Prefer comics to movies, don't like action movies at all, might play DP if it looked more like Jonah Hex and less like it does. I do like blast sets like fire, rad, and energy for the appearance, but don't like DP or Kinetic Melee due to the animations. In fact, I like that the blast sets are mostly very minimal in animation. They look efficient to me, and therefore more believable.

Probably a cultural thing. I don't watch anime, and my comics roots are in the 70s. Fight scenes, special effects and property damage aren't really my thing. I actually get sort of bored if they go on very long. The JLU Superman/Captain Marvel fight was one of those, though I loved the rest of the episode.


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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Bullets aren't connected to the machine gun but Cyclops' blasts are shown as a continual beam. And pointing a fire hose at a wall will absolutely cause pressure to force the nozzle (i.e. his head) backwards.

I could be missing details about Cyclops but you picked a couple really bad examples for making your point.
No, i didn't. Especially not the fire hose. A firehose is a continuous stream, but if you are directing it at an open window or a solid wall, barring being right up against it, the same amount of pressure still pushes back. Try it with a garden hose if you don't have a higher pressure hose handy. The stream from a hose pushes back with the same force regardless of whether you aim it at a wall, an open window, or a curtain. To get additional force from a stream hitting a surface you need to be close enough that the stream material itself is bouncing back to hit you.

You picked some really bad thinking to justify your assumptions.

Cyclops' blasts also ricochet, so you're saying they're some kind of rigid, yet also bouncing, energy rod that acts like a solid object except when it doesn't.

Edit: In any event, Cyclops and his eye beams don't follow the normal rules regarding action and reaction in that he doesn't crush his eyes into jelly or snap his neck whenever he blasts... well... almost anything more durable than cardboard box. Say he blasts a car and either sends it flying or causes it to blow apart... That's tens of thousands of pounds of force being exerted upon his eyes and/or head and neck if there's any real recoil. Comic book physics is very situational and is bound more by the rule of cool than anything else.


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Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon View Post
For me it depends on the genre of the movie.
This. Fanciful versus gritty depends on genre I'm watching, not absolute like/dislike on my part.

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
What you don't mention is that the animations for those summons in the FF series are INCREDIBLY frustratingly long. In many of those games I felt that i was standing around doing nothing while a movie played. if I wanted to watch a movie I'd go watch one.
That's why I played through Final Fantasy Tactics as a solo-Ramza 'challenge'. It's actually easier than normal gameplay, because after the first few battles, Ramza can take 30+ turns for every turn the enemy gets (except boss battles where it's more like a 10:1 ratio, and the final boss battle, where it's more like a 5:1 ratio), and so Ramza can simply punch people to death, repeatedly. Alternatively, you can teach him Holy and master the Calculator class, equip him with Excalibur (absorbs Holy damage) and blast the entire battlefield with Holy (1-2s animation) until everything else is dead.

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
And purely as a matter of opinion, I detest Dragonball Z and Naruto. Just the fact that one fight can be drug out over 4 episodes annoys me.
No mention of Bleach? A battle in Bleach can sometimes last as long as an entire season of an unpopular anime.


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Both? Neither? In a way?

I like crazy chase scenes. The suspense! Sure our guy gets away but oh it's soooo cool when he does so in style!


 

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
I think this is what blaster nukes were in part meant to represent.

I don't have an issue with seeing stuff like what you mentioned in fighting every once in a while.

Not. Every. Friggin. Fight.

What you don't mention is that the animations for those summons in the FF series are INCREDIBLY frustratingly long. In many of those games I felt that i was standing around doing nothing while a movie played. if I wanted to watch a movie I'd go watch one.

it's one of my issues with Dual Pistols. You spend a major part of the time (especially with the later powers) dancing around doing flashy stuff.

I'd rather just kill and move on. it's one of the sets I hope gets alternate animatins.
I quite agree. I'd like both styles: realistic and over-the-top. I like the workmanlike approach of Katana or Broadsword, but I also like the balletic animations for Dual Blades. The gunkata of Dual Pistols is too over-the-top too much of the time. (I actually asked for a basic shooting style when the DP set was first mentioned, essentially porting the Mastermind animations over. I guess that got lost in the noise.)


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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Try it with a garden hose if you don't have a higher pressure hose handy.
I've done it with a fire hose, thanks.