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Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Heh makes me think of Bad @ss normals are really jarring in books with people who are on part with superman or silver surfer. They need stay in the shallow end of the pool.
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I've seen characters in fantasy books who have taken on mad gods, ancient abominations, eldritch horrors, dragons, and even entire armies with just mundane weapons (though some have magical weapons), and most people don't have a problem with that.
For what it's worth, some Badass Normals have gadgets that even the playing field between the non-powered and super-powered beings. No, Batman doesn't have the strength or speed to take down Superman with Martial Arts. But there have been times where he has donned a suit of armor or created gadgets to take on rogue kryptonians, be they canon or non-canon. Example: The Batman Beyond suit can withstand blows from Superman quite well.
Even a Superman from the future, who is vastly more powerful than the modern one admitted that he got tired of getting the crap kicked out of him by Batman's gadgets.
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I more or less agree with your assessments of these characters.|
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
Actually, has there ever been an Elseworlds story where Mama and Papa Wayne were killed when Bruce was an adult and how that would have shaped Batman?
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Much as I loathe and despise Batman, I do think there are a lot of interesting, potential variations on his background, few of which I've seen explored. To answer your question, I've never seen the scenario you describe, but there's an Elseworlds story called "Citizen Wayne" in which Bruce Wayne's father, but not his mother, is killed when Bruce is a child. He becomes a newspaper publisher (the title is, of course, a nod to Citizen Kane).
Spoilers for this story: Wayne grows up pretty much under the thumb of his mother. He's still pompous and self-righteous, just as when he's Batman, but he doesn't go out fighting crime or believe in violence, really. There is, however, a Batman in the story, who's much more savage (physically) than the one in regular continuity. This turns out to be Harvey Dent, who's donned a mask and starting bumping off criminals after getting horribly scarred by one. Eventually, Wayne decides he has to be the one to get rid of this Batman guy for some reason (can't recall why; it's been nearly fifteen years since I read this). He dons an odd-looking, sort of medieval-style suit of armor and fights Batman. Both end up getting killed. Someone then tells this story to Dick Grayson, who decides to run for D.A. (and, it's hinted, become a masked character himself).
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#1. The difference between Batman's motivation and Punishers's is Punisher wants Revenge. Once he takes down who did what happened his motivation is gone. Batman doesn't want what happened to him to happen to anyone else. His motivation is never gone but merely questionable. So where Batman makes sense to keep going, but Punishr does not from what I know.
#2. There are a few else worlds where various things happen at that moment. Like in the Zero hour tie in it's not Thomas and Martha Wayne that get killed, but Bruce. I think any continuity showing Bruce as anything but a good guy or Batman is somewhat bad conceptually, because it's established that Bruce is a good kid and the Waynes are good parents that no matter what happened he'd go down the path of goodness. We also know enough about the Wayne family that they are more or less destined to be heroes, lawmen, and/or sometimes masked. Viking Batman, the founder of Gotham, the underground railroad wayne, the judge wayne, His grandfather, his father, and himself have all been one or more of the three. However, the founder of Gotham may have been a criminal and his grandfather was mildly associated organized crime at best, but never a criminal and its been shown that when his resources was used criminally he was outraged and reversed course so... yeah... It's highly unlikely that Bruce would ever grow up a villain or a bad guy of any sort.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Well according to the writer, becoming Frankencastle was essentially Frank's "punishment" for biting off more then he could chew by taking on super powered criminals and not sticking with the street level criminals. I doubt it was ever intended to stick but it sure did a great job of killing the book and tarnishing the character far worse then when he was an agent of heaven, sometimes referred to as Zombisher or the Spawnisher by fans.
So, let's see now...Frank has been an angel, and most recently an undead-Frankenstein imitation. Now he just needs to become a werewolf for awhile and then later get bit by a vampire and lose just enough blood to become a half-vampire like Blade for awhile. Also for those that wonder how old Frank should be now in mainstream MU books since he is a Vietnam vet and been around for some time, the writer of Frankencastle has stated that the bloodstone will restore his body to full health and make him a 30 year old again. While in the Max Punisher its been stated that Frank has been in action for over 30 years and the Max books do not have the sliding timeline that the mainstream Marvel books have, thus Max Punisher should be in his mid 50's, possibly pushing 60. |
So this is Frank's deal with Mephisto that will deage him and give a whole new supporting cast and bring back much beloved villains for continuity?
*Not bitter at all. Nope*
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Originally Posted by Durakken
#1. The difference between Batman's motivation and Punishers's is Punisher wants Revenge. Once he takes down who did what happened his motivation is gone. Batman doesn't want what happened to him to happen to anyone else. His motivation is never gone but merely questionable. So where Batman makes sense to keep going, but Punishr does not from what I know.
#2. There are a few else worlds where various things happen at that moment. Like in the Zero hour tie in it's not Thomas and Martha Wayne that get killed, but Bruce. I think any continuity showing Bruce as anything but a good guy or Batman is somewhat bad conceptually, because it's established that Bruce is a good kid and the Waynes are good parents that no matter what happened he'd go down the path of goodness. We also know enough about the Wayne family that they are more or less destined to be heroes, lawmen, and/or sometimes masked. Viking Batman, the founder of Gotham, the underground railroad wayne, the judge wayne, His grandfather, his father, and himself have all been one or more of the three. However, the founder of Gotham may have been a criminal and his grandfather was mildly associated organized crime at best, but never a criminal and its been shown that when his resources was used criminally he was outraged and reversed course so... yeah... It's highly unlikely that Bruce would ever grow up a villain or a bad guy of any sort. |
No...Punisher isn't out just for revenge. He wants to, as his name implies, punish evil. There's a lot of evil out there.
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Both are motivated by survivor's guilt.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
#1. The difference between Batman's motivation and Punishers's is Punisher wants Revenge. Once he takes down who did what happened his motivation is gone. Batman doesn't want what happened to him to happen to anyone else. His motivation is never gone but merely questionable. So where Batman makes sense to keep going, but Punishr does not from what I know.
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Nah, not Mephisto just the bloodstone which from the sound of things will be removed from him after he is restored. Which will be good.
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
So this is Frank's deal with Mephisto that will deage him and give a whole new supporting cast and bring back much beloved villains for continuity?
*Not bitter at all. Nope* |
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Folks like him because he has the stones (unlike Batman) to remove killers from the streets permanently. How many people has The Joker killed? And to make things worse, Batman has actually saved Joker from an early demise on quite a few occasions.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Why not just let him die... is he really that popular? It's a guy in a black t-shirt with a large cross on it and he's carrying huge guns out to deliver vengeance on the guys that killed his family which he did already.
I've never understood why they keep going with him. He's done his thing and that should be that. As far as saying Batman is like Punisher >.> Punisher is more or less a common thug. He's a well trained thug (as much as any american military person), but still a thug... a thug that does his thing in a t-shirt often without a plan and without motivation. Batman may have an "odd" costume but he and his crew are equipped and trained appropriately. They wear protection, have various equipment for recon and such and have training beyond that of the government. In the end Punisher is an idiot with a gun while Batman is a high tech military operative. Comparatively they don't stack up. If anything Batman is like a Green Lantern from a low tech planet. |
Oh, and Frank doesn't have a young boy (that is constantly put in harm's way) as a sidekick. If Frank lived in Gotham, he would have had the city sorted out YEARS ago.
"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
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What's funny is that there was a Batman/Punisher special a few years back, don't remember all the details but I'm going to guess they didn't see eye to eye....
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Originally Posted by Comeuppance
Folks like him because he has the stones (unlike Batman) to remove killers from the streets permanently. How many people has The Joker killed? And to make things worse, Batman has actually saved Joker from an early demise on quite a few occasions.
Oh, and Frank doesn't have a young boy (that is constantly put in harm's way) as a sidekick. If Frank lived in Gotham, he would have had the city sorted out YEARS ago. |
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I don't know if he'd have the city sorted out, but the mob element would certainly be far less organized and have an enormously high turnover rate. |
Originally Posted by Comeuppance
Folks like him because he has the stones (unlike Batman) to remove killers from the streets permanently. How many people has The Joker killed? And to make things worse, Batman has actually saved Joker from an early demise on quite a few occasions.
Oh, and Frank doesn't have a young boy (that is constantly put in harm's way) as a sidekick. If Frank lived in Gotham, he would have had the city sorted out YEARS ago. |
And you don't know the Punisher unless you've read Garth Ennis' run.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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If I remember correctly, it was the Azrael Batman that Punisher teamed with.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
What's funny is that there was a Batman/Punisher special a few years back, don't remember all the details but I'm going to guess they didn't see eye to eye....
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"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
Punisher would have been ran out of town or put behind bars years ago. There are plenty of "Punishers" in Gotham.
He's either killed/driven out by the mob
OR
He takes down the corrupt and the good cops rise to the top and they take him down because Gordon would never support a murdering vigilante.
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Yes, but there was a second crossover where Bruce meets Frank too. Bruce saves Joker from Punisher before telling Frank to stay out of Gotham forever, because Batman will be the crap out of him if he doesn't. It was sweet.
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Originally Posted by Comeuppance
If I remember correctly, it was the Azrael Batman that Punisher teamed with.
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Heh sounds cool, have to see if I can locate my copy again. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa
Yes, but there was a second crossover where Bruce meets Frank too. Bruce saves Joker from Punisher before telling Frank to stay out of Gotham forever, because Batman will be the crap out of him if he doesn't. It was sweet.
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Also they had some Batman/Judge Dredd cross overs....
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i think they reprinted both of the crossover for Batman/Punisher in the Crossover Classics trade. totally dug it, but my favorite story was the Cap/Batman cross, very cool. |
Originally Posted by Nericus
Heh sounds cool, have to see if I can locate my copy again.
Also they had some Batman/Judge Dredd cross overs.... |
But yeah, Punisher running through Gotham would just be another thug with a gun. Sure, he might be a really tough thug, but a thug nonetheless.
A talented thug that's a war veteran and has decades of experience killing bad guys. Plus he's got motivation that's as strong or stronger than Batman's.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
The Punisher has also killed the entire Marvel Universe, so there's that.
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I still have that issue as I am a huge Jean Paul Valley/Azrael fan...my fav part of the book is when The Punisher states "He's got moves. I'll give him that."..LOL
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Originally Posted by Comeuppance
If I remember correctly, it was the Azrael Batman that Punisher teamed with.
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"A great love is alot like a good memory. When it's there and you know it's there,but it's just out of your reach. It can be all that you think about. You can focus on it and try to force it but the more you do, the more you seem to push it away. But if you're patient and hold still...maybe...just maybe...it will come to you. I just need to be somewhere she can find me" - Church from Red vs Blue
Punisher and Batman both continue to "fight" crime. Frank is just a blunter tool than Bruce. And, no doubt, Batman can wipe the floor with Punisher.
One can make the arugment though that Punisher is a grittier, more outwardly psycotic version of Batman. Frank didn't have the "luxury" of Bruce with time and money. So he went to what he knew: blowing people away with military tactics.
Actually, has there ever been an Elseworlds story where Mama and Papa Wayne were killed when Bruce was an adult and how that would have shaped Batman?
They're fairly similar characters. Frank doesn't have Bruce's money or the same level of martial arts/detective skills (though he's no slouch), but he also doesn't have to maintain any kind of mask/alternate persona...which may be arguably more mentally healthy
But the motivations are the same...the war never ends for either of them, even if those responsible for setting them on the path are gone.
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"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2