Hey Triumph players! something new for you to do!
By
Baba_Kanoosh,
Posted on: 2010-09-12 15:36 in Triumph
If you didn't have to gear up so differently for PvP, I'd actually play COH consistently again. There's no other endgame, but I don't like farming for the sake of competing on such a small scale.
This server may have not really ever had a very large quantity of PvPr's but many high quality PvPr's originally played on this server. We have had 2 pretty successful Test Teams. Old School was #1 and Paragon Elite made it up to #3 or 2. I wouldn't really consider XA a PvP team, they had some people that PvP'd in the zones but that was about it. They never really entered a ladder team. I also wouldn't really say that any of the "Vet" PvP'rs harassed the PvE crowd, it was just that we knew PvP team strategy and used it. The co-ordinated team understood target calling and buff/debuffing and the "PvE'rs" didn't have any strategies. They may have thought it was harassing but it really wasn't/isn't. Even if there are badges in the PvP zone there is a warning upon entering that says you can be attacked by other players once the countdown is over, no where does it say that if you are "just here for a badge" means no attacking you. Now the devs have mostly catered towards the "casual" PvPr. If you damage spam someone long enough you will kill them because with Heal Decay and travel suppression the target can't evade and if he/she does have a support toon with them, its heals do little to nothing after the first couple. Yes most of us moved to other servers for PvP. I, for one, really don't like zone PvP and don't like it even more since i13. I enjoy team arena PvP, hence the reason I play on test teams and have moved toons to Freedom and Champion, each of those servers have regular kickball matches and Freedom had a league that was a lot of fun and Champion has one ongoing now. I still have toons on Triumph and leveled another toon to 50 a couple of weeks ago to get in on any kickballs on Triumph, but haven't seen one broadcast for one in.....well a long time.
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Well I do know that this is actually in the works, if the devs would ever fix the copy tool. Then they could get some of their toons there and start practicing. I know our team would love to see more teams get into it.| but I don't know if Triumph will ever have a PvP ladder team |
I know that we were always very willing to answer questions about builds and strategies. I would even send people tells and explain things, recommend builds etc to try to better people but would usually just get bad attitude back, and I guess that is expected since most people think that their toons are all undefeatable because in most of the PvE in the game most toons are unstoppable and then when they get stommped by another toon or two then those people get upset, but I have tried to help lots of people and still will. If you have a question feel free to ask, I will give the best answer I can give or I will ask around to get the answer. Just remember it may not be the answer you want to hear. Example: If you ask me how to make your AR/Ice blaster the best PvP toon ever. I will tell you that it can not be done and would suggest something else.
So yeah yeah tl/dr, but what it mostly comes down to is PvPr's just want to PvP be it in the zones or arena and it is not a personal attack if your toon dies to one or to a team, you were just another target out there. If you are in a zone and can't stand the broadcast smack talk that some people think has to be done, then ignore them. PvP can be very fun if you don't take it personal or too serious(especially if you are zone PvPing). For us "Vet" PvPr's all we really want to do is expand the community, and are normally not the smacktalking douches that sometime inhabit a zone. I would like to see PvP pick up again on Triumph but if not then whatever. See you all in game.
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
This is a very interesting thread. I really wish the devs would pay some attention. Honestly pre i13 or post, anything to make PVP like it used to be! I miss all the players and all the fun. Even the ganking and smack talk and people getting all rage was better than the nothingness that is now. Please devs, save pvp. Its really too bad such a robust game such as CoX is going into a "rebirth" such as Going Rouge with no plans to fix pvp. For me the simple fact that people pvp less now that changes have been madeto the system and PVP io's have been introduced than when there was no reward is a sign that pvp is indeed in need of fixing. Why does my opinion matter? i dont pvp. im just now becoming interested in it because iv done everything else the game has to offer. My point being is i probably represent most of your playerbase that has been around for a while. My opinion and those in my situation will ultimately have influence over all the nubs you are relying on for a continued existance (point to GR again)!
My final thought is i really hope i19 has bigplans for change, or we will miss the chance to get a new wave of players interested in what should be a huge aspect of this game. You pride yourselves on your ability to listen to your playerbase dev's. Whats stopping you now?
I'm not up on all the stuff in PvP but... Why don't the devs just allow the PvE and PvP mechanics to be the same?
I ask this from the standpoint of someone who used to play Starcraft both against the AI and against players online. Absolutely every mechanic was pretty much the same no matter what. The only difference was the person behind the controls. So, in that sense, while it may take a while to learn how to compete against another player, you don't have to spend the time learning how your powers work just to PvP.
Back when the devs first introduced PvP, there were *some* differences in the exact mechanics, but things and strategies from PvE tended to work decently in PvP. The only real factor was the intelligence of the person behind the character(s).
I don't understand why they don't just keep the mechanics simple.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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because that would make sense and the devs don't take kindly to sense makin'
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Originally Posted by DrGemini
I'm not up on all the stuff in PvP but... Why don't the devs just allow the PvE and PvP mechanics to be the same?
I ask this from the standpoint of someone who used to play Starcraft both against the AI and against players online. Absolutely every mechanic was pretty much the same no matter what. The only difference was the person behind the controls. So, in that sense, while it may take a while to learn how to compete against another player, you don't have to spend the time learning how your powers work just to PvP. Back when the devs first introduced PvP, there were *some* differences in the exact mechanics, but things and strategies from PvE tended to work decently in PvP. The only real factor was the intelligence of the person behind the character(s). I don't understand why they don't just keep the mechanics simple. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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You sir you are mistaken, it was the mistaken attitude of people that thought they could PVP with their PVE toons. The fact is that due to there toon being awesome in PVE, they had frustration due to the fact that their toon didn't live up to their expectations in PVP and they would use cheap tactics as base camping and TP foe-ing.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Most people seemed to avoid the PvP zones because of a general attitude of the elite class who would show up and totally ruin the decent PvP with their lame tactics (like TP Foe'ing people into the drones and a lot of base camping).
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We used to have decent pvp until server transfers became available. There was plenty of SGs that PvP regularly, X-A, Riders, Loved or Loathed, Paragon Elite, Old School. The reason why people might not know about the PvP Super-groups is because we didn't broadcast ourselves to people. One thing you might not know, True PvP-ers know how to build their toons to the max potential that it can have.
Here is a decent scenario about the difference in True PvP-ers and PvE-ers that PVP:
You finally get your toon to 50 and you are excited to slot those final slots up. You decide to go into Recluse Victory to take out anything in your way because you are awesome, no one can touch you. Well you see this squishy corr and you think you can take him.... to make a long story short, you don't..... You're all frustrated because your awesome toon in PvE is garbage in PvP....
PVP-ers: We see what we can do to make our toons better, or see what the reason why you did get beat was. There is no I win toon now in pvp, nor with the Nerf bat of devs will be.
PvE-ers: Get angry at the fact their toon got beat and argue that the toon that beat them was Over-powered (OP) or Flavor of the Month (FotM). And because they did get beat, they will never enter a PvP Zone again.
I might be exaggerating, but I believe some people will only pvp when the devs Nerf pvp so had it's finally toons with equal hit points with brawl only. PvP has been dumbed down for most people. Yet, those same people will still not PvP.
Wow NinjaHavoc, you and I must have been playing on a different server.
But, see, this post of yours actually highlights the points I (and others) have made.
Your post also highlights the fact that the PvP crowd doesn't seem willing to find a "middle ground" with the more casual players.
Like... maybe if the PvPers are so interested in getting more people into PvP... might be good to schedule some events in the PvP zones that cater more to the casual PvPer and give people a chance to "get their feet wet."
Also, the fact that you have to somehow build your character totally different for PvP doesn't help. Sure, there should be some differences but not so big that someone who mainly does PvE can't enter into PvP and at least perform decently.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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I do agree with you there, Its tough now to do that, due to decreasing population size. I was on the PvPEC committee, and it was tough back then to get people to PVP. I started playing this game right before arenas were implemented. |
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Wow NinjaHavoc, you and I must have been playing on a different server.
But, see, this post of yours actually highlights the points I (and others) have made. Your post also highlights the fact that the PvP crowd doesn't seem willing to find a "middle ground" with the more casual players. Like... maybe if the PvPers are so interested in getting more people into PvP... might be good to schedule some events in the PvP zones that cater more to the casual PvPer and give people a chance to "get their feet wet." Also, the fact that you have to somehow build your character totally different for PvP doesn't help. Sure, there should be some differences but not so big that someone who mainly does PvE can't enter into PvP and at least perform decently. |
So if anyone would like to try to pvp with their toon, look me or anyone that PvPs regularly up. We'll be happy to answer questions that you might have. Just some words of advice if you are starting to pvp:
1. You will die a lot.
2. Your build (enh/powers) might need to be redone.
3. You will get frustrated if you think PvP is lolfiteklub
4. PvP takes dedication.
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That's my major sticking point. I spent a lot of time and put a lot of thought into making my characters perform really well in PvE. I really don't have any interest in starting from scratch and doing it again for PvP.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Also, the fact that you have to somehow build your character totally different for PvP doesn't help. Sure, there should be some differences but not so big that someone who mainly does PvE can't enter into PvP and at least perform decently.
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Since the game is about PvE with PvP being little more than a casual curiosity for me, I'm always going to gravitate towards PvE performance in builds. Unless those same builds can at least hold their own (no unrealistic expectation that I'll win a lot of fights, but I should at least last longer than three seconds with Eye of the Magus and Unstoppable both running), there's just no place for my characters in a PvP zone.
The Players' Guide to the Cities
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we did this. multiple times. over a 3-4 month period. pve kickball, random pug in rv nights, ect. it worked out the first few times but then turned into basically the same 4 people every time and we'd end up 2v2ing which got old real fast. when you give people the option to do a system that is hindered in the fun it gives because of the ****** system(thanks devs!)and is going to require a large amount of time spent and a system that *is* getting dev support, much easier to participate in, and requires the brain of a 4 year old to be successful in, they're going to pick the latter. |
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Like... maybe if the PvPers are so interested in getting more people into PvP... might be good to schedule some events in the PvP zones that cater more to the casual PvPer and give people a chance to "get their feet wet."
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again, it has nothing to do with players getting their feet weet. anyone who is serious about getting into pvp can get their feet wet on their own because they have the information readily available. you can look up the pvp changes on wiki, you can ask around the boards for build, use search.
However, investing 750mil-1bil for an average pvp build is just more than most people on a casual server want to do. especially when successful pvp normally requires rerolling and leveling a new toon along with the inf. Although one of the pve friendly things about i13 was that it virtually made every build the same in the way they're built.
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| Also, the fact that you have to somehow build your character totally different for PvP doesn't help. Sure, there should be some differences but not so big that someone who mainly does PvE can't enter into PvP and at least perform decently. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Hey sampson just wondering how much you spent on your toon?
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Originally Posted by B_Samson
That's my major sticking point. I spent a lot of time and put a lot of thought into making my characters perform really well in PvE. I really don't have any interest in starting from scratch and doing it again for PvP.
Since the game is about PvE with PvP being little more than a casual curiosity for me, I'm always going to gravitate towards PvE performance in builds. Unless those same builds can at least hold their own (no unrealistic expectation that I'll win a lot of fights, but I should at least last longer than three seconds with Eye of the Magus and Unstoppable both running), there's just no place for my characters in a PvP zone. |
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We tried to hold kb weekends for a few months in a row. We would even get on pve toons for the lolz/to make it more newbie friendly. People had fun, but the numbers dropped off after the first couple of weeks. A lot of people just don't want to pvp, no matter how easy you make it for them.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Like... maybe if the PvPers are so interested in getting more people into PvP... might be good to schedule some events in the PvP zones that cater more to the casual PvPer and give people a chance to "get their feet wet."
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Bah. I didn't see what Cancer said.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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I honestly couldn't tell you. I IOed my Tanker and Mastermind out back when IOs first came out in '07 and haven't modified either of them much at all since then. Every other character has had their fully-IOed builds planned out either since then or since they hit level 40. I initially slot with just generic IOs, but I keep track of what each character still wants for set IOs and craft them if/when a recipe drops for me. I don't go out of my way to buy sets, haven't slotted any of the purple IOs I've crafted, and haven't even bothered to craft any of the few PvP recipes I've gotten (I just put them on the market for 1 inf and see what they sell for.)
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Originally Posted by NinjaHavoc
Hey sampson just wondering how much you spent on your toon?
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The Players' Guide to the Cities
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(I didn't read past the quoted post before this reply, so this might be redundant.)|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
I'm not up on all the stuff in PvP but... Why don't the devs just allow the PvE and PvP mechanics to be the same?
I ask this from the standpoint of someone who used to play Starcraft both against the AI and against players online. Absolutely every mechanic was pretty much the same no matter what. The only difference was the person behind the controls. So, in that sense, while it may take a while to learn how to compete against another player, you don't have to spend the time learning how your powers work just to PvP. Back when the devs first introduced PvP, there were *some* differences in the exact mechanics, but things and strategies from PvE tended to work decently in PvP. The only real factor was the intelligence of the person behind the character(s). I don't understand why they don't just keep the mechanics simple. |
They don't have anyone notable on staff who understood why PvP in COH was fun and unique (probably still don't). They made changes based on a vocal minority of whiney players who wanted to get their badges easier. I'll admit that I was one of them until I saw what the "new version" was becoming during testing. It made no sense, and it still doesn't.
COH was originally designed for 10-year-olds, and they have never really let go of that. There are a lot of positives to that, but PvP gets all of the negative of it.
EDIT: The biggest problem with zone PvP has always been that they designed them around PvE. The rewards aren't even PvP-based in the zones unless you count the lolzy droprate of PvPIOs.
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the pvp rewards get DRed to nothing, are not worth slotting, and are basically useless to pvpers. short of glad jav procs and pana's, pvp ios are pve rewards
| EDIT: The biggest problem with zone PvP has always been that they designed them around PvE. The rewards aren't even PvP-based in the zones unless you count the lolzy droprate of PvPIOs. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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None of the changes they made make badges easier, since the only real PvP badges revolve around defeating other players, which, if you really want a badge, you'll set up a little group in the corner of a map somewhere.|
Originally Posted by Catharctic
They made changes based on a vocal minority of whiney players who wanted to get their badges easier.
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B Samson and I did that for the Reputation badges. We let the PvPers to themselves.
The rest of the "PvP" badges are PvE badges in PvP zones: Bloody Bay firebases, Warburg nukes, time-spent, Recluse's Victory heavies and AVs... All of that is arguably made worse by the PvP changes, which dumped offense and defense to the point that petless Masterminds can beat Granite Tankers (I did just that while farming pillboxes, so it's not an exaggeration.)
Saying that PvP was changed for whiny badgers is laughably wrong.
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WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
the pvp rewards get DRed to nothing, are not worth slotting, and are basically useless to pvpers. short of glad jav procs and pana's, pvp ios are pve rewards
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they are afk rewards DUH!!!!
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that literally would have had to been the worst granite tank on in game (GE?) any tank who knows what he's doing should be able to fiteklub down 1000-1200 hp of a MM, the only thing they have going for them is supremacy.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
to the point that petless Masterminds can beat Granite Tankers
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or heavies were involved in which case it doesn't count.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Supremacy only affects the Henchmen, actually.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
any tank who knows what he's doing should be able to fiteklub down 1000-1200 hp of a MM, the only thing they have going for them is supremacy.
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My Mastermind has 1144.52 HP, but I was hitting the Tanker with -Dmg and -ToHit debuffs. No heavies were involved.
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well not supremacy, defensive command i guess it is(whatever it is that spreads your incoming damage across you and your pets)|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Supremacy only affects the Henchmen, actually.
My Mastermind has 1144.52 HP, but I was hitting the Tanker with -Dmg and -ToHit debuffs. No heavies were involved. |
with -damage gettind DR'd and -tohit being less of a problem, my point still stands that the tank was probably a complete downy and an exception rather than the norm of pvp.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Bodyguard?
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
well not supremacy, defensive command i guess it is(whatever it is that spreads your incoming damage across you and your pets)
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The Players' Guide to the Cities
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I think you missed the part where I said "petless." No Henchmen; therefore, no Bodyguard. I was a petless Mastermind, and I beat a Tanker who had Granite Armor running.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
well not supremacy, defensive command i guess it is(whatever it is that spreads your incoming damage across you and your pets)
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You want more people to PvP? It's not gonna happen so long as PvP Math suuuuucks.
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you missed the part where i said that that was the only thing a traditional MM(i.e. not you) has going for it. and the part where the tanker was a downy because A) he lost in granite and B) not being able to kill an MM without bodyguard. but my entire point was that while pvp is (very very) broken, its not so broken that a petless MM can beat tank assuming competent players and builds. |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I think you missed the part where I said "petless." No Henchmen; therefore, no Bodyguard. I was a petless Mastermind, and I beat a Tanker who had Granite Armor running.
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| You want more people to PvP? It's not gonna happen so long as PvP Math suuuuucks. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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No it is almost entirely on point, badgers would enter a PvP zone on their toons that were uber godmode PvE toons and then get taken down by a PvPr or a Team of PvPr's and they then would come to these forums and complain to no end about how broken PvP was, not that they had any clue on how to PvP, just that it was broken. If they had taken time to maybe stay in the zone and ask what they could do to live longer, etc, then they may have figured out that it was less broken then than it is now. I13 changes were made for those people who did the complaining. Pre I13, the devs went to test and watched some PvP teams practice and what they came up with was that it was too fast, people died too fast, and healers could heal too much. Hence Heal Decay, Travel supression and global resists. They also complained that the PvP builds were too much and had no chance to compete against them sooo enter DR. An attempt to make it so that even a so-so build would be viable. |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Saying that PvP was changed for whiny badgers is laughably wrong.
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We, the PvP community, that were involved in the beta testing told them that most of the changes were bad but were mostly ignored, to the point that Lighthouse made a post saying that the changes were not meant for the PvP community, and was quickly removed from his job...
So yes the whinny people on the forums, who got ***** on their AR/Ice blaster while badge hunting and complained about it are the ones that these PvP changes were made for. So Cath was not laughably wrong, but you sir were in saying that.
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]