My ideas to "fix" Stalkers...
1. They should have the highest base melee damage modifier. They will never be as tough as a scrapper/brute/tanker, and they do not have the range of a blaster... and a one shot super strike does not make up for it.
2. Get rid of the interrupt on AS so it is at least a viable attack out of hide... it already loses the assassination bonus then.
3. Leave Hide as the T1 power, but adjust it so that it does not break from indirect damage(AoEs, caltrops, etc), if you were not the target of the attack, it does not pull you out of hide, even if it does damage you... you still take the damage/modifiers though. This allows you to actually make use of your inherent power in large group settings where lots of collateral damage is occurring(assuming point 2 is applied as well).
4. Leave the HP cap as is for Stalkers, but reduce the recharge time on self heals(in sets that have them) and increase defense bases/modifiers(more on non healing sets) to add to survivability.
5. Give Hide a base resist to slows/speed debuffs/immobilize effects to justify a Stalker "tippy toeing through the minefield"... but only while actually "hidden".
6. Purely PvE, but "ambush" mobs and mobs that "rez"(Freakshow, certain others) will break agro and not auto see through Hide if the Stalker repositions... kinda sucks that the main offense and defense is so easily nullified.
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
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You do know that Hide gives a fairly colossal AoE defense buff when not suppressed, right?
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Originally Posted by Fomsie
My ideas to "fix" Stalkers...
3. Leave Hide as the T1 power, but adjust it so that it does not break from indirect damage(AoEs, caltrops, etc), if you were not the target of the attack, it does not pull you out of hide, even if it does damage you... you still take the damage/modifiers though. This allows you to actually make use of your inherent power in large group settings where lots of collateral damage is occurring(assuming point 2 is applied as well). |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
For a example of how good a stalker can be with the correct powers create or watch a 50 Electric/Nin stalker.
I am pretty sure I am equal to any 50 Electric/* scrapper in terms of damage I can deliver to a team (both AOE and single target). And with soft-capped def to all, plus a heal and caltrops I am just as survivable as any IOed out scrapper. Heck I was out surviving a IOed out brute through -def debuffs because I can alpha via buildup and LR an then crit with ball lightning to wipe away most of the minions. I was able to solo +1/8 PPD and longbow spawns.
What I am saying is that maybe its the loss of AOEs that has done the most harm to stalkers.
Here are the guidelines I would use when moving power sets between scrappers and stalkers
AS is traded for single target attack or utility power (needs to be fixed in most stalker sets)
Hide is traded for a non defensive utility power (I think they have done a good job here)
Placate for confront (100% done)
Assassination crits + team bonus crits = scrapper crits
hide has no end cost + AS massive damage bonus + hide's def + AS fear and to hit = scrappers higher hps and hp cap
The last one is pretty much why stalkers exist. Without it a scrapper could take stealth and do the same thing.
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If stalker and scrapper are the same then I say thats good enough. There should be no reason to pick a scrapper over a stalker and vice versa.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
My Elec/nin and Spines/Nin Min-Max Builds have excellent teamed and solo performance.
But I run into people like this all the time in game, and frankly I have nothing to counter them with. I cannot make a good case why someone should pick a stalker for a team over a scrapper, brute or veat. |
A brute over a stalker.. yeah I can see that. Me and a fire/dark corr did my morality mission at 0/6. I was able to survive no problem, but the corr would die almost every spawn or ambush because I dont hold or get agro. A brute would have done a much better job at keeping him alive, without a big loss to killing speed. But I think stalkers and scrappers stack much better than brutes or tanks. So one brute on a team over a scrapper or stalker, but the second brute I would much rather have a stalker or scrapper instead.
VEATS.... on a team stalkers, scrappers brutes and tanks are a waste of space when you could have a VEAT (as long as they picked up all the team powers that is).
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It does give a healthy bonus, yes. You do know that it does nothing against certain types of damage, right?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You do know that Hide gives a fairly colossal AoE defense buff when not suppressed, right?
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The point is that it would greatly help Stalkers, especially in the close quarters, mass chaos team situations when AoEs are flying to actually be able to make use of, you know, their inherent ability? You know the one... only does a lot of damage while hidden, right?
EDIT: And just to add, of the 50's I have and play, 3 are Scrappers, 2 are Brutes, 1 is a Tanker... none are Stalkers. This is just what I have seen in my 40 levels as a Stalker and in many times of teaming with them and seeing their usefulness hampered compared to the other melee ATs. It is currently too easy for a Stalker's main offense and defense to be not just hindered, but completely nullified.
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
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Are you talking attack types? AoE is a positional defense. It doesn't discriminate against damage types, be it fire, cold, smashing, or whatever (unless power info states otherwise; see SR).|
Originally Posted by Fomsie
It does give a healthy bonus, yes. You do know that it does nothing against certain types of damage, right?
The point is that it would greatly help Stalkers, especially in the close quarters, mass chaos team situations when AoEs are flying to actually be able to make use of, you know, their inherent ability? You know the one... only does a lot of damage while hidden, right? EDIT: And just to add, of the 50's I have and play, 3 are Scrappers, 2 are Brutes, 1 is a Tanker... none are Stalkers. This is just what I have seen in my 40 levels as a Stalker and in many times of teaming with them and seeing their usefulness hampered compared to the other melee ATs. It is currently too easy for a Stalker's main offense and defense to be not just hindered, but completely nullified. |
And please don't talk down to me. I know what a Stalker is capable of. I know what Assassin Strike is. I know what you're attempting to get across to me. Problem is, I don't believe you're wording it correctly. A little respect, if you don't mind.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Wait if you never played a stalker....|
Originally Posted by Fomsie
It does give a healthy bonus, yes. You do know that it does nothing against certain types of damage, right?
The point is that it would greatly help Stalkers, especially in the close quarters, mass chaos team situations when AoEs are flying to actually be able to make use of, you know, their inherent ability? You know the one... only does a lot of damage while hidden, right? EDIT: And just to add, of the 50's I have and play, 3 are Scrappers, 2 are Brutes, 1 is a Tanker... none are Stalkers. This is just what I have seen in my 40 levels as a Stalker and in many times of teaming with them and seeing their usefulness hampered compared to the other melee ATs. It is currently too easy for a Stalker's main offense and defense to be not just hindered, but completely nullified. |
Why are you here?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Might want to look at what I responded to that you wrote before trying to play the offense card. Just saying. It works both ways.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
And please don't talk down to me. I know what a Stalker is capable of. I know what Assassin Strike is. I know what you're attempting to get across to me. Problem is, I don't believe you're wording it correctly. A little respect, if you don't mind.
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And, I am well aware of defense types vs Positional defenses, neither was the point save that I think that Hide should not drop unless the attack was a direct attack against the Stalker. Meaning the Stalker was targeted by the attacker... they would still take damage from an AoE/ground based drop attack/etc, just that it would allow a Stalker to still get in their primary focus attack if they were not directly detected.
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
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As I said, my level 40 Stalker... and then I explained my added reason for wanting to see Stalkers get some improvements based on experience playing with them. Reading comprehension is your friend. The point being I am not asking for buffs "to make my favorite toon uber".
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Wait if you never played a stalker....
Why are you here? |
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
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Apparently you don't get it, then.|
Originally Posted by Fomsie
Might want to look at what I responded to that you wrote before trying to play the offense card. Just saying. It works both ways.
And, I am well aware of defense types vs Positional defenses, neither was the point save that I think that Hide should not drop unless the attack was a direct attack against the Stalker. Meaning the Stalker was targeted by the attacker... they would still take damage from an AoE/ground based drop attack/etc, just that it would allow a Stalker to still get in their primary focus attack if they were not directly detected. |
Since Hide will pretty much cap your AoE defense with slotting (and it's not suppressed), the only way to reliably hit a Stalker that is hidden is with Auto-Hit damage (I believe Rise of the Phoenix is auto-hit as well as Howling Twilight) or by using a melee or ranged attack...which requires targeting the Stalker.
Since those special-case auto-hit powers are kind of rare, I can only imagine your issue is with Clatrops. So I'll just say, lrn2ply and *not* get caught in them. Or just avoid Knives of Artemis.
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This is only true in the post 21 game.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Apparently you don't get it, then.
Since Hide will pretty much cap your AoE defense with slotting (and it's not suppressed), |
You need a 50 AOE defense to put a lvl 0 Boss, to the 10% cap. This will require you to slot up 2 Def SOs in Hide, just for a 0 lvl boss, and who fights 0 lvl bosses on teams. And only on teams do I worry about a Boss knocking me out of hide. This means that I'm going to have to slot up with more SOs and/or have other +def powers, to take on the lvl of Bosses I'm going to face on a team.
Why did I mention Bosses, because who is it that is going to have the PBAOE to knock a Stalker out of hide? It's going to be the Boss, and they always have the highest Acc, and a 10% chance, no matter how much defense you have.
No matter how you slot, there is always a chance that the RNG can knock you out of what makes a Stalker, not a Scrapper with lower hps.
Is it right that there is nothing you can really do about the RNG, till the 22+ game?
Is it right that there will always be a chance that this function will be removed from you by the RNG, no matter how you slot?
Do you think it would be fair for a Brute to loose all of their Fury, on one roll of the RNG? How is the Stalker's Hide any different than the Brute's Fury? There both about increasing the damage potential of the AT. And there both intrical to their respective ATs.
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Not quite. Nearly all enemies have a 50% To Hit chance. Defense reduces this on a one for one basis, but the lowest value to which this can be reduced is 5%. |
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
You need a 50 AOE defense to put a lvl 0 Boss, to the 10% cap.
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That 5% will then be multiplied by the accuracy modifier of the mob, so strictly speaking, you need 45% defense to drop a +0 boss to the 5.0% to-hit floor, which results in an overall chance to hit of (5% x (Boss accuracy multiplier = 1.30)) = 6.5%
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Barring the mobs having +tohit, you need 45% defense to reduce anything that's within 5 levels of you to their tohit floor of (5% * accuracy multipliers). So your first sentence is wrong in several ways.|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
You need a 50 AOE defense to put a lvl 0 Boss, to the 10% cap. This will require you to slot up 2 Def SOs in Hide, just for a 0 lvl boss, and who fights 0 lvl bosses on teams. And only on teams do I worry about a Boss knocking me out of hide. This means that I'm going to have to slot up with more SOs and/or have other +def powers, to take on the lvl of Bosses I'm going to face on a team.
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Hide's AoE unsuppressed AoE defense is base 37.5%. A single SO (20%) pushes that to 45%. So your second sentence is also wrong.
Try not making things up when you present a case. Poor arguments based on making things up off the top of your head aren't very convincing.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Actually, I found him quite convincing, rhetorically. I don't want one roll on the RNG to make my stalker suddenly a scrapper with less health. I don't mind taking the damage from a lucky hit, but when my role as a stalker changes from one of distinction to just another melee damage dealer*, I dislike the experience, and don't find the AT has enough tools to differentiate it in a positive manner from sturdier AT's. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Barring the mobs having +tohit, you need 45% defense to reduce anything that's within 5 levels of you to their tohit floor of (5% * accuracy multipliers). So your first sentence is wrong in several ways.
Hide's AoE unsuppressed AoE defense is base 37.5%. A single SO (20%) pushes that to 45%. So your second sentence is also wrong. Try not making things up when you present a case. Poor arguments based on making things up off the top of your head aren't very convincing. |
*I am bringing up survivability differences because that is apparently the metric used to balance Brutes against Scrappers.
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First, your role as a Stalker is "just another melee damage dealer" - and you have Placate for the one lucky hit that the RNG drops on you every now and then. On top of that, even outside of hidden status you still keep a minimum of a 10% chance to critical, so it's not like you completely lose your inherent.|
Originally Posted by JustBling
Actually, I found him quite convincing, rhetorically. I don't want one roll on the RNG to make my stalker suddenly a scrapper with less health. I don't mind taking the damage from a lucky hit, but when my role as a stalker changes from one of distinction to just another melee damage dealer*, I dislike the experience, and don't find the AT has enough tools to differentiate it in a positive manner from sturdier AT's.
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Second, making numbers up is a stupid way to argue. I could just as easily, and with as much accuracy, claim that there is a 1 in a trillion chance of a boss hitting you out of hidden status and so you could play for YEARS with it never happening once. Those numbers are just as accurate, and generated in the same manner (ie, I made them all up without doing any research on the subject).
If you want to discuss the merits of making Hide not suppress while being hit, that's one thing. But you should also understand that it's purely an opinion-based discussion, and arguing about the RNG allowing things to hit you while your defense is softcapped is futile - there has to be some chance of being hit at some point, and Hide makes it as easy as possible to minimize that chance (as in, 0 added slots and only one SO enhancement needed).
Heck, once you factor in the part that doesn't suppress on top of the 37.5% that does, a DO (10% enhancement) gets you to roughly 43.3% defense - add in Combat Jumping, Hover, or any number of minor buffs to be softcapped to AoE from level 12+.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I agree completely, with the admonition that the damage vs. survivability numbers don't match up that well with brutes, tanks, and scrappers. I simply would like something improved in favor of Stalkers.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
First, your role as a Stalker is "just another melee damage dealer"
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| Second, making numbers up is a stupid way to argue.--snip-- |
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| If you want to discuss the merits of making Hide not suppress while being hit, that's one thing. But you should also understand that it's purely an opinion-based discussion |
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Fair enough; that's the whole reason that I started another thread. As for my personal opinion on exactly where they stand, read the first post of it. |
Originally Posted by JustBling
I agree completely, with the admonition that the damage vs. survivability numbers don't match up that well with brutes, tanks, and scrappers. I simply would like something improved in favor of Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by JustBling
Like anything else on this forum, right? Numbers may inform opinions, they may even suggest which opinion is closest to fact, but numbers cannot replace opinion.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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That is true, and perhaps I could have agreed in a more tentative manner. What are the "odds" of the devs listening to player input on this sort of issue? (Yes, purely opinion, but I'm interested.)
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Numbers can sway opinions, especially if presented as fact. But I disagree that everything is opinion on these forums - many threads are essentially "hey, what are the facts about <such-and-such>?" I was mainly jumping on that particular post because it was trying to present false "facts" to support an opinion argument - essentially, lying about what actually happens to make it seem worse than it is.
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I feel that reducing the need to be more aware of your surroundings and of the targets around you takes away from your role as a Stalker.|
Originally Posted by JustBling
Actually, I found him quite convincing, rhetorically. I don't want one roll on the RNG to make my stalker suddenly a scrapper with less health. I don't mind taking the damage from a lucky hit, but when my role as a stalker changes from one of distinction to just another melee damage dealer*, I dislike the experience, and don't find the AT has enough tools to differentiate it in a positive manner from sturdier AT's.
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If I didn't have to worry about being knocked out of hide, there's no need to be aware of the enemy or of damage patches. I can just run into melee and fling off attacks like a scrapper with less health.
As is, if you *think* about the sequence of your actions, are aware of whats what and execute them *quickly*, you're rewarded. Because knowing that you can get dropped from hide with any stray damage means you can't doddle and you can't engage ignorantly. Change it so you don't have to bother or consider any factors but "move in, hit button" really just pushes you into the realm "Generic Melee #3".
I'm not saying a change to hide that doesn't force suppression from AoE dmg is a nerf, but you're not solving the issue of the AT or differentiating it from the other melees. Hell, the *reason* we have a huge bonus defense to AoE is for precisely this...with this change they might as well reduce it to normal so we can drown in any splash damage. It won't knock us out of hide so who cares?
I would like a protection from environmental damage. I'm tired of the fire in the doorways in Praetorian maps forcing me out of hiding...
Not that it has ever led to my death, my Praetorian stalker has made it to 15 sans mortum, but it is a dangerous annoyance that is far more dangerous to Stalkers than to other ATs because stealth is our armour.
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I agree with most of this, Leo, but I don't think it has any place in a discussion regarding how the archetype is to be balanced against others. What you're talking about with "spatial awareness" is really something that no dev can give you. It's an issue of player skill. I have to be against this suggestion because player skill--above and beyond what may be tentatively termed "the average"--should not be considered in balancing AT's against one another. If player skill were to be considered, then the outliers who perform well against particular enemies and cherry-picked situations could provide the wrong ideal skill level. For instance, I'm not sure I would like my scrapper to be balanced based upon extreme builds and players that regularly solo Archvillains.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I feel that reducing the need to be more aware of your surroundings and of the targets around you takes away from your role as a Stalker.
If I didn't have to worry about being knocked out of hide, there's no need to be aware of the enemy or of damage patches. I can just run into melee and fling off attacks like a scrapper with less health. As is, if you *think* about the sequence of your actions, are aware of whats what and execute them *quickly*, you're rewarded. Because knowing that you can get dropped from hide with any stray damage means you can't doddle and you can't engage ignorantly. Change it so you don't have to bother or consider any factors but "move in, hit button" really just pushes you into the realm "Generic Melee #3". I'm not saying a change to hide that doesn't force suppression from AoE dmg is a nerf, but you're not solving the issue of the AT or differentiating it from the other melees. Hell, the *reason* we have a huge bonus defense to AoE is for precisely this...with this change they might as well reduce it to normal so we can drown in any splash damage. It won't knock us out of hide so who cares? |
Again, I do agree with your statement regarding spatial awareness, but I'm not sure it belongs in a conversation regarding balance issues--on the dev side--among the various AT's.
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And that's only if you believe there is an actual problem to be had. As far as I'm aware, the frequency people complain they are knocked out of hide on teams, is rare. Not that it rarely happens, but it's a mitigatable situation.|
Originally Posted by JustBling
I have to be against this suggestion because player skill--above and beyond what may be tentatively termed "the average"--should not be considered in balancing AT's against one another.
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As far as balancing it across ATs, uh, yeah...Stalkers get a power that can cap your AoE defense at level one. That's the balance. Or do people fail to understand just how powerful some things are?
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| Again, I do agree with your statement regarding spatial awareness, but I'm not sure it belongs in a conversation regarding balance issues--on the dev side--among the various AT's. |
(deleted my ignorant question)
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Perhaps some people just don't appreciate how contingent Stalkers are upon Hidden status. It's a crutch that was programmed into the archetype to differentiate us from Brutes and Scrappers. My concern is that our role outside of Hide can be easily filled by a Scrapper with the same sets.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
As far as balancing it across ATs, uh, yeah...Stalkers get a power that can cap your AoE defense at level one. That's the balance. Or do people fail to understand just how powerful some things are?
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| Vs a suggestion that doesn't address balance issues either? It's only as out of place as the original thought behind the change it was referring to. It wouldn't make the AT more survivable, more offensive, more viable to teams or solving a disparity among the other ATs. |
I really dont see the need to ever team with a stalker when you can team with a VEAT who can Stealth also (after all thats all a stalker was ever good for) and Veats give off team buffs..
But I run into people like this all the time in game, and frankly I have nothing to counter them with. I cannot make a good case why someone should pick a stalker for a team over a scrapper, brute or veat.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!