Stalkers coming up short

So if I have a teammate nearby I have a 3% chance to double crit out of hide? Or a 13% chance? Just with AS, or with everything?

I may have spread some misinformation about this in one of the other threads. :/

This. This right here is what I've been harping on in two other threads. Solve this, and the majority of the complaints with AS would disappear.

I haven't had much time to keep up on the boards lately, and so haven't been following the whole AS DPS discussion as closely as I normally would, but I don't really think it's fair to tout the high DPA in the context of using it in an attack chain without mentioning its miserable DPE. Broadsword's Assassin's Slash is around 9.7 outside of hide, which is slightly worse than Hack's (which I think is somewhere just above 10). And if you're using it in a regular attack chain then you're going to be using it outside of hide most of the time.

I'm not saying don't use it in an attack chain - I use mine as often as makes sense in my attack chains - but when you're talking about DPS the only thing that really matters is the maximum sustainable DPS, and that is limited by endurance. Some builds might - if they take physical perfection, stamina (which will be inherent anyway) and build some IO bonuses in - be able to use AS in a sustainable chain, but the majority of builds in reality wouldn't for very long.

This is absolutely true. And it's the kind of situations that people who complain about adding a Stalker to a team use to "justify" that, because Stalkers are generally more single-target oriented than other ATs with the same powersets. There's some aspect of their fragility in there, but most of what I see centers around the AoE factor.

See my comments about mobility, above. If I have to move to the target, wait for the game to acknowledge that I am no longer moving, and then wait out the activation, I just don't have a target who's worth Assassin's Striking any more. See below.

This is true, but I think it's important to point out that the target doesn't have to die to make me not want to AS it. If I use AS on a target where I'm wasting most of my AS's damage because the target is heavily damaged, that's still a drop in my effective DPS. What's the point in delivering the full DPA in AS when, say, 1/2 or even 1/4 of it is pointless? I'd do better to just activate a couple of lesser attacks that will deliver less, but suffiicent damage to defeat the target in comparable activation time, but have zero risk of interruption (from damage or from moving).

Which is why you don't use AS on minions. But against harder targets, AS proves to be the better options for stalkers than straight up scrapping from the start like you are suggesting.

Damage scales don't really mean too much to me so I can't use those numbers to work off, but unslotted Assassin's Shock does 139 damage over 3 seconds when not in hide. That is 46.33 DPA.

Charged Brawl does 62.1 in 0.83 seconds, or 74.81 DPA.

That isn't far from being twice as good as AS, and Charged Brawl is a T1 power from a set not really known for it's single target damage.

AS just needs to be better. It really should have the highest DPA of any stalker power even when outside of hide. Even then I still don't think stalkers would have enough single target damage too offset their lack of AoE in teams, but it would be a good start.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Yes, I know what Soul Drain does and it's frontloaded buff. Even though I don't have any DM scrappers anymore, doesn't mean I haven't played the set several times on that AT into the mid lvls (32-39).

And in this game, on this forum, where people whine and complain about enemies resisting smashing/lethal damage and how they don't want more of such sets, it's common opinion that smashing is often resisted, sometimes heavily.



And what was the cast time on Soul Drain again? 2.4 seconds? Since it's a targetless PBAoE (that is, it doesn't require you have an enemy in the reticle to use), you've got to 'pause' before using it so the server knows where you are and not 4ft less. Then there's the positioning, accounting for any hits since all the enemies can see you and have shot you, etc.

So after all that, are there still bosses? Minions and Lts? Can you not hit BU on the way to the enemy and queue up AS on the Boss/Lt in the same, if not shorter span of time?



You do if you're not going to present a bias argument that talks down on specific fighting styles or strategies since these circumstances are not balanced around, for the most part. Which is 'better' is primarily up to the player, set/build and enemies.

Since when? Explain. As far as I know, the situation you present (teams killing foes too fast, steamrolling content, etc.), Burst damage is the only way you're even going to make a mark in the team. And if you're playing a Stalker right, Burst damage is pretty much your DPS if fights end quickly. What you can get off in 4-8 seconds is all that really matters. The only time DPS really takes the drivers seat is the hard foes that can stand up to a steady stream of damage.

And this is where people will say 'Then go play a scrapper!'. If that is the playstyle you wish, either build toward it and bite the bullet or GO PLAY A SCRAPPER!

Since I play all the melee ATs, I *NEVER* wish Stalkers were Scrappers. Scrappers are nice but can be boring. Stalkers have an interesting aspect of controlling their criticals that give them some tactical play as well as the instant gratification of big damage at once.

Any changes to the AT, I'd want to differentiate them from Scrappers and make their burst damage more noticeable/still controllable because that's why I play the AT. That a Stalker can scrap is for when there's no tactic left to exploit (which is pretty much after AS/placate/Hide are used up). The Stalker just needs to end the fight quickly to come out even/on top of Scrapper performance.

Changes don't need to be aimed at AS, specifically because AS is a situational attack. It'd be about as useful as slightly lowering Hide's timer from 8sec to 5. It'd still require you to wait around 5 seconds to get a burst which slows down the death of the targets.

Changes should be aimed at the less situation attacks of the set and be focused on fulfilling the ATs burst damage role.

See seeb's response. I explained clearly that the issue in a "steamroller" environment is not (always) that the target is dead, but that AS is overkill that happens to come bundled with interruptibility.

If the problem is that the steamroller is steamrolling even bosses in the spawn that quickly then the problem is not really a problem with Assassin Strike. Honestly, are you really contributing with a lesser attack just because you can manage to squeak one in there a second before the target would have died anyway? What AT would contribute anything to a 7-person steamroller that is already doing what you claim it is doing to that degree... without you?

None of that applies in the same way. Soul Drain works so long as I am in place. It cannot be interrupted. The game only has to think I'm in (roughly) the correct vicinity. Moreover, I get the buff for every valid target in range at activation, whether or not the target is alive when the animation completes. This is radically different than AS.

See earlier comments about AS overkill on damaged opponents. Might I not have much left to kill once Soul Drain goes off? Absolutely and that happens plenty. Of course I also have 30 seconds to carry it into the next spawn or so and maybe pop off Shadow Maul or MG on a hard target.

No, it's simply not for any condition where you can hit three enemies or more. It's that simple. The math is not conditional, and I'd like for you to present a defense of the likelyhood that you cannot activate the power with at least three enemies in range. I'd especially like you do defend that notion when playing solo on something like x4.

I'm really not sure where you get that notion. Can you explain it?

In a team context, DPS does not have to be measured only against single targets. Even if a team is not AoE heavy, you still have multiple targets spread around, and the single-target melee optimally spread around and engage multiple targets that they can each defeat rapidly. Being high DPS composed of smaller, fast attacks means that you have an ability to tear down these smaller targets rapidly and move to another one. If your primary contribution is a large burst of damage, you're going to need to beeline for the big targets or you're going overkill something and then other people will kill off the rest, possibly including the target you move to after you defeat your AS target. Unfortunately, everyone likes to pile on the bosses. In my experience this gets back to a boss being 1/2 dead before the AS goes off. Sure, I could go obliterate some minion, and that sometimes makes sense (Sappers, anyone?) but I find in general it seriously downplays the value of the large burst of damage AS delivers.

I didn't mean that I wanted my stalker to be a scrapper, I meant I wish it was as effective as a scrapper. Though I should have been clearer.

Agreed, there is no point having two AT's the same. They need to be different.

Actually that is precicely why AS should be changed, so it stops being situational!

AS is what a stalker does, so let the stalker use AS!

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

I'm not sure why you're asking me that question. You've captured very succinctly one of the main positions people who pass over Stalkers take when they do so. They conveniently ignore that this is a problem for almost any single-target damage dealer in that context. If they're skipping Stalkers they should also probably skip over DM or MA Scrappers, EM Brutes, etc. I'm not defending that anyone should heap this on Stalkers. Read my original post in this thread. I said that Stalker balance decisions should not be based on this.

What I'm now arguing with about four people is how the steamroller playstyle interacts with AS. I've qualified my statements in earlier posts agree that AS is good for slower pace and to be talking specifically about how it works at very aggressive pacing. Under such conditions, AS is either hard to use (interruptable by damge or {lingering} movement) or overkill. In many but not all cases, I find it is simpler and more reliable to avoid using it, because I don't need to use it. If I am using it less because I don't need it, then sure as hell my team doesn't need me using it, and so we can't use the availability of AS as a reason to bring a Stalker on a steamroller team, which I felt was something being argued earlier.

Right, that quote was toward the argument of 'corpse blasting'. Either you'll have few/limited targets to defeat with SD buffs that end up with more overkill dmg (and AS would be overkill) or its not true for neither.

I *know* how SD works and I know how it affects my strategy as well.

Then you'll be losing much of the added benefit of a longer duration while adding the detriment of an enforced reckless playstyle. If the argument can be used against the Stalker AT that it enforces a certain playstyle, the same can be used against the Scrapper as I don't like to play mine as a Brute.


Duh.

I never argued of the superiority of BU vs SD. Yes, the numbers in your preconditioned scenario can say a lot but it shouldn't account for everything. I should love Rage but I can't really stand to play SS at all...perhaps on a Scrap or Stalk or something but not Brute or Tank.

But conditions change, especially when you're bias. I could just set my setting to +4x1. Then what? SD has a greater chance to miss, fewer targets and needing to rely on positioning can affect survival. Or I could throw in the PvP angle.


And Brust damage doesn't have to be measured in a single strike. That is, Stalkers are capable of more than just 1 controlled burst of damage. In the DPS taking out smaller separate targets in a team context, one has to account for the 'team' part. With Burst damage, foes drop. This means the Stalker can move onto other targets *faster* for those bursted targets. As for overkill, this is why Stalkers can control their burst. Just don't use BU when you think a boss will drop with your AS due to allies hitting him too. Save that burst for other enemies.



Then it'd most likely stop being the most damaging ST attack. Basically, you have to openly advocate that you're in favor of nerfing AS just so you can use it more often.

I don't like it. I'd rather just use my other attacks and use AS when I'm trying to assassinate something instead of just beating it up.

Don't quite get that? I would keep the damage the same, but simply lower the animation time and remove the interrupt. That's a buff not a nerf, and keeps the situational value just as it is now, while increasing the usability outside those situations, which is where I think stalkers struggle.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

We're discussing whether or not DM's average DPS is higher with Soul Drain than with Build Up. If you can hit at least 3 targets, it's basically the same, and if you can hit more, it's higher.

You seem to be arguing that at least 3 targets is somehow not a reliable situation in general in order to defend the position that the DPS of a Stalker is not lower with BU than it would be with Soul Drain.

You've additionally tried to suggest that having AS makes up the difference, particularly because it's all negative damage. In response to that I've argued that:

• AS isn't the only all-negative damage in DM. In fact, it's two hardest hitting non-AS attacks are pure negative energy.
• AS is harder to utilize to it's full DPS contribution in the conditions under which people most tend to care about being able to deliver high DPS. Those are:

• Larger-than-baseline team size settings, particularly if you are not using a defensive secondary
• Steamrolling (particularly in teams, but even the solo version since it often involves moving from foe to foe and movement has weird latency problems)

Really? And how does that compare with the benefit of a shorter power?

There's a value judgment in here that this playstyle is inherently detrimental. People play this way for a reason. It's highly rewarding in terms like XP or drops per hour.

What does this have to do with what we're discussing? I am not trying to convince anyone to change Stalkers to have Soul Drain. I am only discussing how the existing design of Stalker DM plays into the arguments of people who might overlook Stalkers for other characters. The original point was that Stalker DM is about as "AoE-ish" as Scrapper (or Brute) DM, but lacks the AT-mod-adjusted sustainable DPS of the Scrapper version because the average +damage contribution of Build Up of is very likely to be lower

Then we should stop arguing, because that's all I was replying to you about.

I'm really not sure what that has to do with much. Increasing team size is much more common in my experience than ramping up the level of foes beyond +2 or +3, for exactly the kind of reasons you mention. (It also has to do an awful lot with the fact that more foes of a given level is typically more rewarding/time than fewer of the same foes at a higher level. The sweet spot is basically +2 - beyond that reward/time tends to fall off.) Edit: The point here is that playing on +0/x1 isn't something that someone who cares about which power gives better sustained DPS is likely to do anyway.

If by 'we are' means 'you and me are', then no we're not.

I said:

"Having actually played a high lvl DM stalker, much of the drag you speak of is alleviated in Assassin's Eclipse. Having such a potent punch of Negative energy damage that is not very resisted with the added benefit of controlling the crits on your higher attacks rather than them spread completely even throughout the strong and weak makes a bigger difference than you'd think."

That isn't saying Build Up out-DPS Soul Drain. That's was to counter the statement that not having Soul Drain was a significant drag on performance. In certain circumstances and playstyles, yes. Not in all.

It's because you've lost sight of what we were even talking about, as I just pointed out. But of course you're going to see a huge disparity between Stalker DM and the other melee version of DM because you're bias to the use of AS.

So you're basically looking at the set with BU and a missing power.

It's actually what I did for my 44 DM/WP Stalker so the drops are of higher level. Granted, he runs at +4x2, foes generally don't get much opportunity to attack because they are instantly taken out, placated or feared. His play heavily leans on ToF as a tool of misdirection, not something a Brute or Scrap probably would do (or a Tanker would need) because they're concerned with DPSing foes while I'll just Burst the fewer foes.

That is a team over powering the content, ,which happens to be a broader issue not isolate to stalkers. And let me add that if a stalker isn't heading to the next spawn to set up AS they are doing it wrong.

The double critical happens after Placate only, but happens at the normal critical rate due to a glitch in when the game determines that you're hidden or not (so both criticals have a chance of firing when they're specifically written not to). It's that way on all Stalker attacks that can critical.

Damage scale 1.0 is 55.61 damage for a Stalker, so to get the damage you just multiply by that number.

Also, the numbers you quoted don't include the time used by the server before you can activate another power, so aren't really relevant. Charged Brawl is nowhere close to twice the DPA of AS, because from the time you activate it until when the game allows you to activate another power, you have 1.056 seconds - not 0.83. The extra time is what's used before the server checks again to see if the power is done activating, plus another check after it notices that you're done activating before it lets you activate another one (there's always at least 0.132 seconds of dead time).

As an example, for Electric Melee:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I still don't get why anyone uses damage scales, it is another pointless round of maths just to complicate things.

Anyway, I work out the Arcanatime* cast for Charged Brawl as 0.96 seconds, meaning a DPA of 64.53. AS would be 3.13 cast time or 44.38, still a 50% improvement.

*It isn't an actual gap of 0.132, that is just when the servers tick.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

And that's correct IF you always have an attack or chain of attacks whose damage will exceed that of AS in the next 3 seconds, bearing in mind that AS can also be interrupted. It's a gamble you should only use if you're soft-capped and not facing a lot of enemies or they're not aggroed on you (or mezzed I suppose). For any stalker with a complete ST attack chain it is probably never a good idea.

Or to put it another way, it's often better than just standing around doing nothing.

It's also plausible if you're facing a single enemy with a single, slow attack (like Buckshots and PPD Suppressors in the low levels, or some Rikti at the higher end) and they've just used it, so you know that you have five seconds before anything else can hit you. Again, that's mostly useful when you don't have a complete attack chain, but that's when these types of enemies are most common - in the low levels, before you finish your chain.

I don't even bother with AS on teams. I wouldn't want to waste precious crit chances aiming an AS at a dead body. Opening up with an AoE, assuming you have one, is good, especially when you see 3 or 4 crits happen as a result. (<3 burst!)