Another discussion about names
I have different conflicting opinions of the whole name system:
1) It is often much easier to get old players to come back to try new content than it is to coax new players to risk a game they took a pass on previously. City of Heroes is VERY friendly to the interrupted-player compared to most other MMO's I've sampled. It is very VERY easy to come back to without a feeling of being left behind. Anything that raises the spectre of a barrier for returning players will have some sort of negative impact on the game. This has to be weighed against the potential benefits of any purging.
2) It has not been proven that any kind of name purge will free up any of the names that people are seeking. It is known that previous purges had VERY little impact- both from dev statements and anecdotal evidence. Even among those names freed, we don't know how many are DESIRABLE names and how many of these long-departed players were stuck using alphanumeric substitution and 1337 speak to get what they want. Either way, if you "raise the threshold" to increase the # of desirable names freed, then you also raise the barrier mentioned in #1.
3) Heck, we don't even know if other player behavior (name squatting) may have a bigger effect than old-account names when it comes to "desirable" names.
4) There have been several million characters made in City of Heroes and unlike fantasy games, these names are often real-world words or phrases. Names can be as defining to a character as the costume and powerset, and sometimes, when names carry dual meaning, using synonyms or appending adjectives to the original word will dilute that value. Thus, having to compromise on the "ideal" name can be as crippling to a character concept, if not more crippling, than a costume appearance or the lack of a powerset combo that you'd use. This can make good character concepts flounder or be discarded, and frustrate the player.
I know I've abandoned more than a few concepts because the name/appearance/story couldn't mesh together as I intended.
5) Name handles have historically (until recently) been unique in muds/mmo's and were often the principal identifier. Changing this in EXISTING games, where the standard is well-defined, is risky behavior that will lead to confusion and frustration as peoples' assumptions are challenged.
6) There is no "RIGHT" to exclusive access to a name. Plain and simple. The dev's game structure creates a situation where squatter's rights and "firsts" apply, but they could easily structure it any other way, changing it as they see the market needs change, as is their right in the EULA. I generally believe it is bad to make such changes to an already-launched game unless there are CRITICAL issues.
One can argue that unique names make sense in the genre-- generally, due to product trademarks, there's only one hero for each name. We have a superhero registry, so there's an in-game reason for enforcing individual names.
But would a VILLAIN succumb to the to the rules of a hero / villain registry?
Is such a registry international? or National? If there's a "grey fox" in the US registry, does he have name rights for "Grey Fox" internationally? If one of those international versions travels to Paragon, does he have to change his name and register locally or is there some international treaty? What about the German translation of "Grey Fox"?
The simple hero registry system works fine as a cursory explanation but doesn't hold up to hard examination... or when it does, it opens up the possibility of identical names.
7) Duplicate names are less of an issue than people assume. Just like real-life, most of us have someone out there with a name identical to ours. I've worked in an office with seven 'Daves' and we naturally adapted- with aliases, proximity, and context easily clarifying which we're talking about.
In any given game, users are logged on for only a limited time, and that time is spread among many of their alts. The population of any one zone or chat channel is limited to an even smaller segment of the population. For all but the most common hero names, the odds of two characters with identical names being in the same region or chat channel at any given time. When that happens, most (non-mmo) chat will append a subscript number to each user to distinguish them. Thus CO's 'character@global' default chat handle isn't necessarily the only way to handle it. A similar 'character@shard' could similarly be hidden most of the time.
CO's 'character@global' probably should have defaulted to the chat option of "global hidden, but available on mouseover" as this would have been less glaring and intrusive, but they likely assumed that duplicate-name confusion would be great enough that they needed the clarity. Interestingly, though, I tried CO- a single server system that had at launch hundreds of instances of zones and subscribed to several popular "global" channels. There were very few UNINTENTIONAL duplicate names... despite NOT being divided by server or zone, and despite the fact that these specialty global channels often cause clustering of people with common interests (and thus slightly increase the likelihood of common names).
The challenge of duplicate names comes with PERSISTENT IDENTITY- is the "Yu Ying" I spoke to last night the same as the one that I'm speaking to today? This is where globals become more valuable-- we're an alt-heavy community and we already frequently use globals to keep track of friends across alts, so why not use it for keeping track of persistence among characters of the same name?
(To answer my last question, and wrap this up... I don't like CoH using globals for this on principle. CoH initially introduced the global system with assurances of privacy and the understanding that it would be shared/known only to those you wished to share it with. This was obviously blown by a few design oversights and then a more recent issue pretty much stripped even that thin veneer away. I still, though, adhere to the original ideal, and prefer that it only be abandoned to address a critical game issue. I don't think that the naming system has reached that threshold yet, so I don't support any of those changes.
First off, CO had a toggle that many folks never used that allowed you to turn off the @globalname extension in the chat windows.
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They turn the feature off then get the wrong person in trouble because they never bother to find out what the global name of the real offender is.
Well if you have5 first names and 5 last ones, you get 25 combinations eh?
Lots of super hero names are two or three words total.
Maybe I should make a super hero name generator for inspiration ? Lot's of names I've picked at first have been taken and I've been so much happier with the alternative.
Here's what I love about this argument.
Player A: This unique naming feature is unfair. I can't get any good names because everyone else got them first. I want to be able to use the same cool names they have.
Everyone else: We don't have any problems coming up with cool names.
Player A: Your names suck.
Everyone else: If we took all the names, and our names suck why do you want to be able to use them on your characters?
Player A: . . . *head explodes*
For example let's say I'm in an global channel with Hyperstrike and he tells me and everyone else about this jerk he met the day before running a character named "Johnny Butane". An hour or so later I see you on your character named "Johnny Butane", and I say in my global channel, "Hey here's that guy that was a jerk to Hyperstrike. Someone in the global asks me what your global name is and I tell them. Just like that you've been added to 30+ ignore lists and you don't know why your having trouble finding teams.
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As in your example, TODAY with no change to the system, Hyperstrike could tell you and everyone in your global channel that anyone was a jerk with no evidence and he could even specify a Global name just because he has a grudge against a guy he teamed with. The end result would be the same.
That means the flaw isn't with the nameing system, or even the ignore system, the flaw is with you and your friends not thinking critically for yourselves. Changing the name system won't change that either way. It would be no different than it is now.
And frankly, if they are that sheep-like and gullible, I doubt I'd mind being on their ignore list.
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I have different conflicting opinions of the whole name system:
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Actually yes they do use that feature to turn off the @thislooksstupid and that's exactly where the arguments start over being mistaken for someone else.
They turn the feature off then get the wrong person in trouble because they never bother to find out what the global name of the real offender is. |
The only way I could see them speeding the retraining of the player population would be to GMOTD the heck out of this issue along with disabling some existing slash commands. When executed, the disabled commands would bring up a popup reminding them of the new system and that for the time being one needs to click to report or ignore offending names.
There are drawbacks to either system.
Note that though I'm in the camp of "I'd like to see open naming explored," my desires for the game do have priorities. This falls far behind incarnates, new costumes, graphical updates to old zones, unique mission maps, revamps of older content, revamps of older zone events, a few new unique zones with highly unique climates and features from what we currently have (outer space, moon, arctic, tropic) and even removal of some or all of the war walls. It's pretty far down that list. So though I'd like to see it explored for this game, it may be something more fitting for any next generation successor to this game.
And if it is worked into a successor game, I'd personally like to see the system even more robust allowing for secret identities and temporary aliases for mission specific content, i.e. seeing your name change to Arbiter Pink or some such were you to go undercover to infiltrate an Arachnos base and then revert back to your hero alias once the disguise comes off. Again all the immediately above being fantasies for a robust sequel to CoX, not features retroactively introduced and woven into existing content.
I have no dog in this show.
Whatever the devs decide I'm fine with.
However, the fact that when asked in person during a conference, and a majority of players said they are FINE with the current system . . . speaks volumes.
The only thing I would say, is that THIS issue shouldn't be a priority with the multitude of other things they need to work on.
If we had to pick one or the other, (and from the recent PAX answers to a lot of questions and long requested features it looks like there is STILL a juggling of priorities at Paragon Studios EVEN with their increased staffing) I'd rather they spend time developing tech for cross server teaming (tfs, pvp, PUGs) than waste it on this. Just my opinion.
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Thanks for articulating those thoughts Chase. Gotta say I agree with all of them except I come down on the other side of the fence in favor of them putting some dev resources towards developing a system. Even if it doesn't make it into CoX, the ergonomics could be translated for the (inevitable?) successor to CoX.
As far as this stuff goes, all of you are correct that many people would likely still try to slash command ignore people. The only way I could see them speeding the retraining of the player population would be to GMOTD the heck out of this issue along with disabling some existing slash commands. When executed, the disabled commands would bring up a popup reminding them of the new system and that for the time being one needs to click to report or ignore offending names. There are drawbacks to either system. Note that though I'm in the camp of "I'd like to see open naming explored," my desires for the game do have priorities. This falls far behind incarnates, new costumes, graphical updates to old zones, unique mission maps, revamps of older content, revamps of older zone events, a few new unique zones with highly unique climates and features from what we currently have (outer space, moon, arctic, tropic) and even removal of some or all of the war walls. It's pretty far down that list. So though I'd like to see it explored for this game, it may be something more fitting for any next generation successor to this game. And if it is worked into a successor game, I'd personally like to see the system even more robust allowing for secret identities and temporary aliases for mission specific content, i.e. seeing your name change to Arbiter Pink or some such were you to go undercover to infiltrate an Arachnos base and then revert back to your hero alias once the disguise comes off. Again all the immediately above being fantasies for a robust sequel to CoX, not features retroactively introduced and woven into existing content. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If we had to pick one or the other, (and from the recent PAX answers to a lot of questions and long requested features it looks like there is STILL a juggling of priorities at Paragon Studios EVEN with their increased staffing) I'd rather they spend time developing tech for cross server teaming (tfs, pvp, PUGs) than waste it on this. Just my opinion.
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Very true. And again though I would appreciate an open naming system myself, I see the most justifiable reason to develop and implement such a system would be if it helped alleviate any logistical challenges with a new larger game experience changing mechanic, such as the cross server teaming you mention.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If you blindly add people to your ignore list just because your friend told you to, your problem is bigger than the game allowing duplicate names.
As in your example, TODAY with no change to the system, Hyperstrike could tell you and everyone in your global channel that anyone was a jerk with no evidence and he could even specify a Global name just because he has a grudge against a guy he teamed with. The end result would be the same. That means the flaw isn't with the nameing system, or even the ignore system, the flaw is with you and your friends not thinking critically for yourselves. Changing the name system won't change that either way. It would be no different than it is now. And frankly, if they are that sheep-like and gullible, I doubt I'd mind being on their ignore list. . |
Here's what I love about this argument.
Player A: This unique naming feature is unfair. I can't get any good names because everyone else got them first. I want to be able to use the same cool names they have. Everyone else: We don't have any problems coming up with cool names. Player A: Your names suck. Everyone else: If we took all the names, and our names suck why do you want to be able to use them on your characters? Player A: . . . *head explodes* |
To be fair, many professional authors will testify to just how important a name can be for a character-- not just in comics, but in novels... and even for bit players. Specific names convey specific feelings and expectations. They can help reinforce characteristics or draw a spotlight to a characteristic by not meeting the expectation. Even the structure of the word conveys subtle meaning (a fact that the TV series Castle poked fun at last season when hearing of a real world suspect and saying something like, "now THAT is a great bad guy name. Strong k, snakey S, and a sneering "eeeeee" that just screams sleazy").
A name can have dual meaning ("Castle" is supposed to be a little bit of a jerk, and it was an intentional part of his character design that his name sounds like... something else, if you make the 'c' silent.) or the name might have particular symbolism.
Perhaps you had a great deal of symbolism tied into why you named your tiny invulnerability tank "Targe" - including not only the similarities to the "short spiked round shield" of highlander lore. Perhaps you also wanted to include the play on words (as the word for "target" originated here... and what's a tank's biggest role?). (note: I have "targe" on Liberty, but not for these reasons).
Well, you could append something to "Targe"-- colors are common, but "Red Targe" puts the defining emphasis on the color... much like "Black Canary" stresses that the coloration isn't the expected canary yellow. In the case of "black canary" it works. In the case of "Targe," it adds nothing and distracts from the central focus. Oftentimes, the single-word name carries all the impact needed.
Yes, you can keep working at it-- you may eventually find something that isn't taken that works with the multiple meanings without significantly detracting from your vision... but one of the great strengths of City of Heroes is the way all the options let you express your creative vision. Shame to have to compromise it when it comes to something so defining as the name.
I'm not advocating for a purge or a global. I don't think it's needed for an existing name, but I'd seriously consider other options for any new game.
Yep. If they got cross server teaming working then I could see the names issue super jumping (heh) to the top of the priority list. Until then not so much.
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If you do cross-server teaming, you display the character name and a subscript marker indicating it isn't a native of that server. People teaming with the character can overlook the marker, since they know who they're teaming with, and just call him by name. People on the "host" server that may need to report/ignore that person will know that it isn't their "native" version, and in the very rare chance that two people from different servers with the exact same name, we can use numbered subscripts to tell them apart for tells.
If you blindly add people to your ignore list just because your friend told you to, your problem is bigger than the game allowing duplicate names.
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Note that what he provided is an EXAMPLE. He used himself as the protagonist of the example. He's not saying the situation is going to happen with HIM. But it IS going to happen.
As in your example, TODAY with no change to the system, Hyperstrike could tell you and everyone in your global channel that anyone was a jerk with no evidence and he could even specify a Global name just because he has a grudge against a guy he teamed with. The end result would be the same. |
Sorry, in the current system today, both sides can log any interaction and by comparison of those logs show who was being the problematic one.
In a duplicate naming system, this isn't necessarily the case.
They already are that. That is how the global channels and email system see them. It's been like that for some time now.
There's nothing explicit about the naming change the devs offered that says that your global name has to be more visible than it is already. That goes for in chat and over character heads. You wouldn't "be" XX@YY any more than you are already in the eyes of the game and global channels, and you wouldn't become that any more in the eyes of players. In fact, I'm fairly sure the devs would want to avoid that and keep it as invisible as it is now, which is to say, only mostly. The only visible change would likely be that in game emails would require "xx@yy" to send to a specific character or switch to "@yy" only. . |
It's not that hard to come up with a name.
Sorry, in the current system today, both sides can log any interaction and by comparison of those logs show who was being the problematic one.
In a duplicate naming system, this isn't necessarily the case. |
Look, let's be realistic. Very simple... EXTREMELY... simple online chat services have been dealing with duplicate alias selection for over a decade. The most basic of these have simple design elements for moderation assistance to address complaints behavior and even intentional impersonation.
This isn't exactly new ground here.
Wrong. People don't need to click on the person's text or on the character to /gignore them.
For example let's say I'm in an global channel with Hyperstrike and he tells me and everyone else about this jerk he met the day before running a character named "Johnny Butane". An hour or so later I see you on your character named "Johnny Butane", and I say in my global channel, "Hey here's that guy that was a jerk to Hyperstrike. Someone in the global asks me what your global name is and I tell them. Just like that you've been added to 30+ ignore lists and you don't know why your having trouble finding teams. |
Let's Dance!
Wow, look at those goalposts move! What're you running in them?
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I countered that such a situation would snowball regardless of the naming system if he truly thinks people can't think for themselves.
Sorry, in the current system today, both sides can log any interaction and by comparison of those logs show who was being the problematic one. |
In a duplicate naming system, this isn't necessarily the case. |
Furthermore, the server logs are what a GM goes by, not the chat logs you have locally, which can be fabricated. A GM may request a player's logs to show him where in the server logs to look(which I've never actually seen happen), but the GM will not take player chat logs as fact.
What your and Mandu's counter argument comes back is the knee jerk assumption that chat logs wont show global names. They likely would if changes were made to the name system. The devs are not that short sighted.
Beyond that, if some people aren't going to check someone's global name and are just going to blindly ignore someone because their friends tell them to, altering the naming system won't change that either way.
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But it is EASILY the case, based on very simple design.
Look, let's be realistic. Very simple... EXTREMELY... simple online chat services have been dealing with duplicate alias selection for over a decade. The most basic of these have simple design elements for moderation assistance to address complaints behavior and even intentional impersonation. This isn't exactly new ground here. |
I only play on Virtue, which is one of the highest-pop servers.
I *just* got Sparkdance for my Clockwork Elec/Elec dominator. That's a wonderful name just sitting there unused, and I snagged it 6 years in. I had several other backup/thesaurus versions to try in case that failed, but I didn't have to.
I made a Praetorian MM, too. The roleplay concept is that he's not a guy with a bunch of faceless minions, but a leader of a small gang of petty thieves and criminals. The inspiration was the Artful Dodger, so I tried Jack Dawkins, but that had been taken. I swapped to Jack Wild, which was the name of the child actor who played the role in the black-and-white musical version of Oliver I grew up with, and is arguably a "better" name. It was not taken, which surprised me, but I'm very happy with that.
The ONLY time I've ever used numbers was substituting a capital I for a lowercase L for 2 alternate-power-versions of MY OWN characters, since the game doesn't use serifs in text. I'd never do it to "steal" someone else's name.
There's really no need to pretend there aren't perfectly good names out there. If you can't be Shadow Lord, well, why would you want to be? Try some alternate words, try tweaking the substance a bit. I'm sure you can find something perfectly lovely (like Sparkdance!) that no one else is using.
There's really no need to pretend there aren't perfectly good names out there.
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The fact there are other names available is irrelevant. There are always going to be "names" available, even if they are just random letters. The question is how far do you have to go from the name you want before it's not the name you want anymore. You personally may not have minded going 'Jack Wild', but you do not speak for everyone.
Accept that other people do mind. Since you are very flexible about names, how would the system allowing duplicate character names hurt you? You seem all too willing to just use another name if you found too many people using one you like.
If someone wants to use the name Shadow Lord, they should be allowed to. They should not be blocked from having it because four years ago someone took the name, got it to level 25 and then walked away from the game never to return. That's not something a name purge would affect. Nor would it be fair if that person did come back and found themselves Generic'ed.
The preferable alternative, the one that serves both people equally and hurts both the least, is to allow duplicate names.
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Then you say people should be allowed too - again - speaking for the masses on what is and is not allowed?
Then you tell us what the preferable alternative is - for who? You or us? Again there is that speaking for everyone again.
As posted above, your first hint was the response in the room or do those others you speak for count more?
I *just* got Sparkdance for my Clockwork Elec/Elec dominator. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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For example let's say I'm in an global channel with Hyperstrike and he tells me and everyone else about this jerk he met the day before running a character named "Johnny Butane". An hour or so later I see you on your character named "Johnny Butane", and I say in my global channel, "Hey here's that guy that was a jerk to Hyperstrike. Someone in the global asks me what your global name is and I tell them. Just like that you've been added to 30+ ignore lists and you don't know why your having trouble finding teams.