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You either didn't read what I said or didn't understand my statement. I at no point implied either directly or indirectly that redraw should be removed from the game or that it is a feasible request.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
While I agree with your premise, I disagree with this, If you don't know how much work it takes to make animations for powers. don't go around saying how 'easy' it is to fix something, especially when it comes to animations. (There is a reason why redraw is still in the game and its not because the devs hate us and want to keep it in.)
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I did state that making a version of WAWG that shoots from the mace and is mutually exclusive from the version that shoots from the gun IS easy to do.
If a Bane (or huntsman) could pick versions of the powers that all use the same drawn weapon the amount of redraw they experience will decline drastically.
-whirling mace
-mace beam attack damage be worth a damn
-ddr
-enhanceable +hp
-better resists
that list being done would make me happy
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The bane ranged attacks with the possible exception of venom ray are meant to be fillers. Banes are melee. If you want a range then roll a huntsman or crab (btw the NPC crabs always reminded me of the cavity creeps when they marched. I'm just waiting for them to start singing "We make holes in teeth.") Their is no point in allowing banes to crit on their ranged attacks.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If Bane follows Stalker's critical ratio, then a range aoe can only have up to 50% which means Bane's pretty-low-damage attacks like Mace Valley won't be able to even kill a minion. The critical part only applies to Bane's branch so no critical on Soldier's attacks and Patrons, although Stalker can critical with patron attacks.
I don't see Bane critical with Mace Beam is going to be overpowering. Those are pretty low damage range attacks and besides if the crowd is tight, Bane can still use Crowd Control. |
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Well Epic archetype should be just that epic and the Devs should have said they will follow a different storyline instead of calling them epic AT's. Other games have epic AT's aka hero classes and they have benefits that the other classes don't.
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Welcome to the Epic AT roundabout. We've been doing this same dance over on the Kheld boards for sometime going on forever.
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What additional team offense boosting potential does Bane offer over Crab? Surveillance?
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Originally Posted by Thinkso
Bane's have much higher damage potential than the other branches and they also have higher team offense boosting potential than the other branches.
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Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
IMO the only thing that could improve my SoA is an alternate animation for Heavy Burst where a flock of doves flys up when I open fire.
*Sigh* Here we go with this dance again.
Banes and Widows have some similarities but trying to compare them is like comparing Controllers to Defenders some similarities but overall different ATs
Banes don't get DDR because Crabs don't have it, personally the small amount that a Widow gets isn't that noticable (it's 18% I think)
Banes get a higher base HP, Higher Base resistances, and Higher Defenses than a Crab, so this justifies the Crab getting a self heal and a resistance toggle.
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Make a crab.| better res and a self heal |
About the ranged Bane attacks...use at your own risk, I know they are there for concept purposes, they probably have their uses...I just haven't found them. This statement does not include Poison Ray, that is awesome.
As for the Mace version of WAWG, there is Web Envelope from the Patron power pool that shoots it from the Mace, I already think there is enough copies of powers I don't think we need another.
I think the HP is unenhancable for good reason, Banes have a perma HP increase of what Serum is at base and with just SOs (which is what the game is balanced around) there is a still a minute downtime, so being able to enhance it kinda makes it equal to Banes having it perma. I think if they were going to balance it to where Banes could add health enhancements to increase hp, I think they would lower the amount of HP that is given, therefore, really nerfing it because my Bane is already starving for slots.
Some good ideas that were mentioned...
Whirling Mace, Honestly Mace Beam and Mace Beam Blast need to be taken out of the powerset and they need to be replaced with This power and a Mace version of Venom Grenade (Taking this would lock you out of the Wolf version) and Whirling Mace.
Really nothing even needs to be done, Banes are far superior than people give them credit for, so to me a lot of people hating them or thinking they are the bottom of the barrel doesn't bother me, because overall this means of all the VEATs they are going to be at the bottom of the list when it comes time to nerf.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Just to clarify, even if I believe Bane is at the bottom of the barrier for its "purpose" in VEAT super team, it is still a very decent branch.
I absolutely hate all those 2s activation range attacks. Fillers? They are HORRIBLE as fillers. A filler is like 1s activation range attack that you use in between recharge time (even if it's low damage) but no, Bane has low recharge and low damage range attack that takes 2s. Calling them "filler" is like saying Gravity's Propel (takes 3.3s) on Dominator has a "purpose" just because it knockbacks. It just looks cool and nothing else.
I would love to have Whirling Mace and get rid of one of the aoe knockback attacks. I don't care which one. But knowing there is rule that they don't completely change existing powers, I root for increasing recharge and damage on some of the Mace attacks.
At current rate, I feel my Bane has to go melee (not because it is purely designed to be melee because 4 out of 8 attacks are RANGE!). You are not going to convince me that Bane is simply a "Melee" AT with some range attacks. Bane has 4 range attacks and one range Hold power. That's 5 powers that don't mesh well with Bane's "hidden" (Stalker style). In fact, if you watch enemy Bane, they start with range attacks and then placate for Executioner Strike. The current Bane style is literally hide and then go in for mace attacks.
Night Widow is the premier Melee branch, not Bane...far from it. Bane doesn't have the melee defense to begin with and while having a bit higher HP (other branches can make it up by getting 3 accolades), VEAT in general has very low base HP (dominator level only?). However, I have no problem with Bane's survival issue. I only have problem with Bane's style in general and how almost every power takes 2s to activate. If you play NW and then switch to Bane, you feel like your Bane is in slow-motion.
Has anyone playing Bane without Cloaking Device? I feel Bane's versatility is hindered by feeling the "need" to hide for critical. Maybe it is more beneficial to use web hold on somebody to start the fight (but you lose hide). Maybe it is better to use aoe range attacks in the beginning of the battle instead of running in for mace attacks (you lose hide).
I enjoy my current all melee Bane (Shatter Armor and Shatter) but I feel that's not Bane's strength.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Banes dont need a buff. They are fine.
They could be improved with a buff, yes, but need? No.
If there was one thing that would instantly help with little effort, it would be some DDR. I would luike to see that. But +hp, or a serum? Get over it, go play a crab if you want serum.
And moaning about the range attacks? Hey guess what...not EVERY atatck in the game is supposed to be super extreme uber awesome. I dont expect to use shockwave on my claws scrapper to suddenly do insane damage. Bane = Melee, that is how I see it. If you dont, that is totally ok...but if you don't, stop moaning about the crappy ranged attacks.
And I don't see how Bane is the weakest branch...perhaps some people need to fix their builds instead of dying and sceaming Buff me, Buff me! I have seen plenty of good banes.
I agree the auto def toggle should be melee...it makes no sense that it is Ranged.
Whirling mace? Yes please...I love that attack, even when a boss hits you with it
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Yes and shatter armor. I know the latter isn't limited to bane's, but it seems designed for them in that it does not cause redraw (detracting some attraction for widows) and they tend to be in melee range anyway (detracting some value for crabs and most forts).|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
What additional team offense boosting potential does Bane offer over Crab? Surveillance?
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Has anyone playing Bane without Cloaking Device? I feel Bane's versatility is hindered by feeling the "need" to hide for critical. Maybe it is more beneficial to use web hold on somebody to start the fight (but you lose hide). Maybe it is better to use aoe range attacks in the beginning of the battle instead of running in for mace attacks (you lose hide).
I enjoy my current all melee Bane (Shatter Armor and Shatter) but I feel that's not Bane's strength. |
I just straight up kill stuff with maximum pets out as often as possible, venom grenade, surveillance, double assault, and shatter armor making them and me do the most possible damage whether alone or in a team. In the grand scheme, slowing down so that I can land a partial crit is not worth it.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Banes dont need a buff. They are fine.
They could be improved with a buff, yes, but need? No. If there was one thing that would instantly help with little effort, it would be some DDR. I would luike to see that. But +hp, or a serum? Get over it, go play a crab if you want serum. And moaning about the range attacks? Hey guess what...not EVERY atatck in the game is supposed to be super extreme uber awesome. I dont expect to use shockwave on my claws scrapper to suddenly do insane damage. Bane = Melee, that is how I see it. If you dont, that is totally ok...but if you don't, stop moaning about the crappy ranged attacks. And I don't see how Bane is the weakest branch...perhaps some people need to fix their builds instead of dying and sceaming Buff me, Buff me! I have seen plenty of good banes. I agree the auto def toggle should be melee...it makes no sense that it is Ranged. Whirling mace? Yes please...I love that attack, even when a boss hits you with it |
Bane is NOT = Melee. Try again.
When half of powers are Range, this AT is not just about Melee and those range attacks (maybe minus Poison Ray but even that is slow) are so poor that my Bane doesn't really need them. The range attacks from Soldier branch are even better than Bane's and that's where I have problem.
You want to call it a "buff"? I want to call it an "adjustment". I am simply suggesting make mace beam attacks recharge longer (make 4s, 6s. make 8s, 10s or 12s) with a bit higher base damage to make them worthwhile to shoot because each one takes long two second.
PS: I wish I could change the title for this thread. It's really about "adjustment" rather than buff now that I think about it.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Wrong!!!!|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Just to clarify, even if I believe Bane is at the bottom of the barrier for its "purpose" in VEAT super team, it is still a very decent branch.
I absolutely hate all those 2s activation range attacks. Fillers? They are HORRIBLE as fillers. A filler is like 1s activation range attack that you use in between recharge time (even if it's low damage) but no, Bane has low recharge and low damage range attack that takes 2s. Calling them "filler" is like saying Gravity's Propel (takes 3.3s) on Dominator has a "purpose" just because it knockbacks. It just looks cool and nothing else. I would love to have Whirling Mace and get rid of one of the aoe knockback attacks. I don't care which one. But knowing there is rule that they don't completely change existing powers, I root for increasing recharge and damage on some of the Mace attacks. At current rate, I feel my Bane has to go melee (not because it is purely designed to be melee because 4 out of 8 attacks are RANGE!). You are not going to convince me that Bane is simply a "Melee" AT with some range attacks. Bane has 4 range attacks and one range Hold power. That's 5 powers that don't mesh well with Bane's "hidden" (Stalker style). In fact, if you watch enemy Bane, they start with range attacks and then placate for Executioner Strike. The current Bane style is literally hide and then go in for mace attacks. Night Widow is the premier Melee branch, not Bane...far from it. Bane doesn't have the melee defense to begin with and while having a bit higher HP (other branches can make it up by getting 3 accolades), VEAT in general has very low base HP (dominator level only?). However, I have no problem with Bane's survival issue. I only have problem with Bane's style in general and how almost every power takes 2s to activate. If you play NW and then switch to Bane, you feel like your Bane is in slow-motion. Has anyone playing Bane without Cloaking Device? I feel Bane's versatility is hindered by feeling the "need" to hide for critical. Maybe it is more beneficial to use web hold on somebody to start the fight (but you lose hide). Maybe it is better to use aoe range attacks in the beginning of the battle instead of running in for mace attacks (you lose hide). I enjoy my current all melee Bane (Shatter Armor and Shatter) but I feel that's not Bane's strength. |
The bane melee attacks are vastly superior their ranged attacks with the exception of Venom ray. I have 5 attacks with venom ray. I don't need a lot of attacks to be effective, and my recharge is just fine. I see the bane as being a stealthy heavy fighter type class and the widows as being fast/light fighters/assasins using a combination of mental training and poison, I don't expect the ranged attacks from the bane and mace mastery pools to be devastating. Its just not going to happen. If you want a ranged Soldier roll a huntsman or crab. Banes are fine as they are. Hit points are fine, damage is fine.
How come I don't see "Khelds human forms needs a buff?" I put one up to get a reaction and the zealots went through the roof. I feel like people are pissing on a gift every time I see a "Banes need a buff thread." I am often the first to criticize the devs but I have nothing to complain about when it comes to banes.
Alos once i19 hits my Bane is going to take the medicine pool and superspeed. It's not entirely thematic but it's effective.
Oh cool, this subject popped up again, been some time since I read SOA forums. 
Small improvements I'd include in banes;
-DDR
-Tweak the bane/gun redraw animations
Being able to pick which weapon is drawn on BU/Surveilance, or just make the animations like darkest night and brawl (doesn't draw weapon when used, but doesn't put it away either)
Then other stuff I was thinking about once, was giving surveilance -to hit or a self heal "panic power".
Can't comment much on the mace blasts, since I've only played a melee and gun builds. I did skip majority of the blasts on the melee build though, because they weren't very good.
I don't think banes need DDR. A lot of people have mentioned DDR but I think there needs to be some exclusivity when it comes to who can have access to it and how much is available. I have corruptors (that didn't take the BS shield) and /regen + / DA stalkers that can cap S/L defenses and I can can get 30-35% melee/ranged if I focus on it. This game offers defense in spades and the lack of DDR is what keeps most toons in line.
Besides that, banes get resists and have active mitigation through knockdowns / an accessible hold/ an accessible immob. They even have pets to soak aggro. DDR will never happen, nor probably will a self heal.
Banes, at best, just need a few tweaks. I'd like to see shatter do more damage (NW's slash outperforms it but it doesn't share the same light because you don't see the words "WIDOW'S SLASH!" pop up over your head every time you crit with it). It should have the damage buffed a bit... or they should tag shatter armor as able to crit from hide <--- this would be a killer change.
And yeah, the constant redraw and the slow animating ranged attacks are a pain. Again, all they need is to be tweaked a bit and they will be golden.
Folks will still continue to say they are the worst of the SoAs though...
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I would LOVE to get the quickly recharging placate back.
| If I remember right during beta they had a crazyfast recharging placate which set them apart from stalkers. You could basically crit on demand and it was the talk of the town. They were touted as being the Arachnos "shocktroopers" and with this feature they were undeniably so. Then they went live and their placate gem had been re-adjusted to match the stalker's recharge time of sixty seconds... |
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
The reason why me (and possibly others in the thread) think DDR is appropriate is the defense oriented nature of Bane. That's why I think it's a little bit of an underdog when other defense sets are considered.
Banes get resistance, but even when fully slotted the armors don't offer that much resistance.
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This. I think my final build for my Bane gives me an average of 10 to 12 percent. |
Originally Posted by Gaspard
Banes get resistance, but even when fully slotted the armors don't offer that much resistance.
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I do agree that DDR shouldn't be allowed to most class types. Who's ever going to pick poor ol' Super Reflexes if every friggen set has DDR and a good chance at softcap?
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If you put emphasis into the resists they can be pretty decent. My bane is running just shy of 40% S/L and 10-20% most other things. This is on a higher end IO build though an if I had deep pockets I could bump it up to about 50% S/L. Of course to get to this level will require tough, slotting of the pvp melee sets and the 3% resist unique.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
This. I think my final build for my Bane gives me an average of 10 to 12 percent.
I do agree that DDR shouldn't be allowed to most class types. Who's ever going to pick poor ol' Super Reflexes if every friggen set has DDR and a good chance at softcap? |
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Well, the difference here is that no other set (with the exception of Shield, given the Hami trick and lots of recharge) even comes close to the amount of DDR Super Reflexes gets access to.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
This. I think my final build for my Bane gives me an average of 10 to 12 percent.
I do agree that DDR shouldn't be allowed to most class types. Who's ever going to pick poor ol' Super Reflexes if every friggen set has DDR and a good chance at softcap? |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
For banes, is it better to just use Huntsman rifle powers for ranged attacks and skipping all of the mace ranged attacks?
I realize this requires lots of redraws, but you'll probably be redrawing to the rifle anyway if you take venom grenade (and I can't think of any reason not to take venom grenade on a Bane).
I'm about to respec this way on my 29 bane. The only thing I'll miss is Venom Ray, but it'd be worth it to lose the sucktackular mace ranged attacks.
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I never took Venom Grenade on my Bane. IMO, Surveillance and Shatter Armor are enough.
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Originally Posted by BugeyeJack
I realize this requires lots of redraws, but you'll probably be redrawing to the rifle anyway if you take venom grenade (and I can't think of any reason not to take venom grenade on a Bane)..
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Originally Posted by BugeyeJack
For banes, is it better to just use Huntsman rifle powers for ranged attacks and skipping all of the mace ranged attacks?
I realize this requires lots of redraws, but you'll probably be redrawing to the rifle anyway if you take venom grenade (and I can't think of any reason not to take venom grenade on a Bane). I'm about to respec this way on my 29 bane. The only thing I'll miss is Venom Ray, but it'd be worth it to lose the sucktackular mace ranged attacks. |
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
I never took Venom Grenade on my Bane. IMO, Surveillance and Shatter Armor are enough.
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Shatter Armor: -20% res for 20 seconds
Surveillance: -20% res for 20 seconds
Venom Grenade: -20% res for 10 or 16 seconds....-40% TOXIC res for same.
Poisonous Ray: 111.22 unenhanced TOXIC damage over 15 seconds (At level 50)
Stack all three of those debuffs and Poisonous Ray is doing nearly double damage (-80% Toxic resist, -60% all other).
Surveillance can take the Achilles Heel proc, for a 20% chance every (base) 45 seconds of doubling the resist debuff of that power. Should that proc trigger on the triple-stack of debuffs, Poisonous Ray will be doing exactly double damage.
If you're on a Bane, you have no reason to not take Venom Grenade other than concept or 'redraw' since each and every mace melee attack has a minor toxic DoT effect, and VG will boost that, as well as providing a significant boost for Poisonous Ray's damage.
Sure VG's debuff lasts for a shorter duration than the others, so use it LAST but before you shoot off Poisonous Ray. Too many people forget that VG debuffs extra against toxic, even though that's the very reason many people use the VG + Bile Spray combo on Crabs.
Ok, I am the one that started this thread but I've been playing Bane a lot lately in TFs and I'll be focusing on using Bane in i19 just because I like Stalker a lot too and I feel Bane offers way more to the team than what Stalker brings (but that's another topic).
Several things:
1. I took Surveillance, Venom Grenade and Shatter Armor. When you are on a full team, these resistance debuffs can REALLY make a big difference. Shatter Armor is a must-take in my Bane build.
2. Bane's range attacks suck, yes, even with Poison Ray because Poison Ray is DoT (and take 2s to shoot) and if you use Venom and then draw back to Poison, you might as well just use Shatter (10' radius) or simply chain Bash and Pulv. The only range attack I use is Venom.
3. Using pets to prove that Bane has one of the highest DPS in the game is pretty misleading IMO. I use Reinforcement and in dangerous situations, they either die too quick or just serve as meatshields (yes, they are very useful, don't get me wrong). When you solo, it's great for sure but none of SoA has soloing problem.
4. I think if you only go for melee Bane build, Bane is fine due to all the resistance debuffs he offers. I feel range attacks are pretty lame and the range hold isn't that useful on Bane. The only thing I wish they could do is get rid of re-draw in Surveillance.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The amount of redraw on Bane's is ludicrous and entirely unnecessary with a bit of developer work.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel