Making Surveillance pull out the mace would aggrivate Huntsman players.
Also I think most Banes go all melee because Bane gets the strongest melee attacks of all the Soldier builds, meaning that they tend to go Bane because they want a melee based Soldier, if they wanted ranged they could go Huntsman or Crab.
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Yes, but half of the Bane attacks are range attacks and can't critical from hidden (only melee can?). |
Originally Posted by Kiwi
Making Surveillance pull out the mace would aggrivate Huntsman players.
Also I think most Banes go all melee because Bane gets the strongest melee attacks of all the Soldier builds, meaning that they tend to go Bane because they want a melee based Soldier, if they wanted ranged they could go Huntsman or Crab. |
The range attacks are too slow for low damage. I guess I don't mind taking range attacks (can also be used at melee range) if they are decent.
Surveillance belongs to Bane branch and I am sorry but it should favor Bane's mace weapon draw first. Huntsman uses rifle and should draw it out. Not the other way around.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
DDR, better res and a self heal
Make a hybrid mace/gun that stops you from weapon swapping.
k it might look silly but it sure would be nice.
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they already do... its called the arachnos mace.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Make a hybrid mace/gun that stops you from weapon swapping.
k it might look silly but it sure would be nice. |
not all banes ignore their blasts. mace beam might have kb, but i've found it actually helps with mitigation and is good for runners even with its slowish activation.
poisonous ray is good for the -def and the toxic damage and is good for kiting when HP is low and a boss is gunning for you and you've already used up placate. i'm also considering an achillies heal proc in it for extra -dam.
i agree mace beam volley sucks. it has to have better damage or i'll never consider it.
i also ignore bash and pulverize as i use shatter and crowd control out of hide/placate and they are usually up when needed, especially with hasten and mental training. i might be taking a hit in pure damage output, but i find the ranged/melee hybrid more effective when i don't have to be in the enemy's face to deal damage.
as for surveillance, i'd be nice if there were two different animations for it - one with the mace so there wouldn't be redraw and one without. it'd be even nicer if it would just animate on the fly depending on whether the mace was already out, but i'd be fine with letting players pick so that pure bane builds could just choose the mace animation, and the huntsmans could avoid the draw/redraw.
another question entirely. does shatter armor in the mace patron pool crit from hide/placate? it doesn't change my decision to get it, but would be nice to know.
50: Ill/Kin(A+,R,J)-1047 badges RE/Dark(A) Fire/Elec Warshade BS/Regen Necro/Poison Ice/Fiery(A+) Son/Son Bane(A) FM/DA(A) DM/Nin Grav/Icy
lvling: Inv/EM DM/Sheild Arch/MM Bane NW Elec/Earth Grav/Elec Elec/FA Rad/Ice
Paragon Elite/Rogue Elite Joined Oct 2004
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I don't think it's possible to make two weapon draw for Surveillance. I think the most logical one is to let it draw Mace because it belongs to the Bane's branch. |
Originally Posted by Soul_Stormer
as for surveillance, i'd be nice if there were two different animations for it - one with the mace so there wouldn't be redraw and one without. it'd be even nicer if it would just animate on the fly depending on whether the mace was already out, but i'd be fine with letting players pick so that pure bane builds could just choose the mace animation, and the huntsmans could avoid the draw/redraw.
another question entirely. does shatter armor in the mace patron pool crit from hide/placate? it doesn't change my decision to get it, but would be nice to know. |
Shatter Armor does not critical from hidden. I have it in my build. It hits like a TRUCK though. You basically start with Shatter/Crowd, Shatter Armor and then whatever attacks you have left. Or you can save Shatter Armor for another target.
The reason I brought up the range attacks is that it's not that Bane "MUST" go melee. It is more that the mace attacks just suck so hard. The Mace Beam is even worse than Single Shot due to that long !@# animation. I am fine with longer animation if the damage is decent (but it is not). I don't need knockback from Mace Beam because both Shatter and Crowd Control can already knockdown good enough. If I want to use range attack, I need some decent damage.
Poison Ray is alright. It has long animation, shorter range (40') and it's DoT (not instant damage). I'll give it the benefit of doubt for being toxic damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'm not sure this would work - you're using one hand to tap the supposed scanner thing on the wrist of your other arm, so where does the mace go? The animation would have to change to work with the mace out, and the current animation is great.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
3. Make Surveillance draw the Mace out like Build Up please.
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Mace beam attacks (except Poisonous Ray) really are awful, in both damage per hit and damage per second. The animation could almost certainly be quickened and/or recharge increased to let them have higher damage. Banes work OK as a melee spec already, though, so this is more of a "wishlist that doesn't really need to happen" item for me.
Enhanceable +HP would be cool though. So would mace versions of WAWG and/or Venom Grenade.
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That's a good point, the mace-versions of powers would be pretty notably useful.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Enhanceable +HP would be cool though. So would mace versions of WAWG and/or Venom Grenade.
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Sorry I wasn't very clear with what I suggested. I mean having the actual gun attacks that everyone gets as being base (ie: heavy burst) as not requiring weapon swaps.
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Originally Posted by Soul_Stormer
they already do... its called the arachnos mace.
. |
The animation for the mace ranged attacks are rather silly, considering that all the other ranged attacks in the game involving a ranged weapon animate in half the time.
It doesn't really take that long to point the mace at the enemy and shoot...
Enhancable +hp
Whirling mace
Ranged/AoE damage balanced for the animation time
A combination of two of the above would suit me fine.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
I will agree that having bane spider armor +hitpoint enhanceable would rock, and having shatter critting from hide would just simply own (stalker's patron attacks are flagged to crit from hide, why can't bane's/widows?). Also a faster animating ranged sequence would be nice.
And yes to whoever mentioned whirling mace or whatever it's called, it always irked me a bit when a NPC executioner used it on me but I don't have access to it.
Honestly if I were to make a suggestion to buff banes I'd say just give them serum and fortification from the crab spider tree and be done with it. Hmmm... a 700 point heal that caps hitpoints + 40-60% resist to everything (except psi) + softcapped defenses? On a debuffing melee toon that can summon 3 pets and double its DPS? Yes please!
Will never happen of course but since we are all wishful thinking might as well throw it into the mix.
Shorter ranged animations would be my number one request.
the enhanceable hp, whirling mace, and maybe a tiny bit more resistance would be second.
Web nade and venom grenade shooting from the mace would be awesome.
Well, it's either shortening the Animation or making the range attacks "hurt" more. I am leaning towards hurting more since the activation matches every other Mace attack. They can also shorten the range like Poison Ray's.
Or, simply allow Bane to critical with range attacks. This way Bane can choose to go melee critical or range critical.
I am ok with not being able to enhance +HP. I can always get accolades. I just think Bane is not doing as much damage as Widow/Crab. ST damage, Widow wins. AoE-wise, Crab wins. Bane also doesn't have good solid controls like Fortunata.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Banes are fine as they are. I don't see the need to buff them. They are already engines of destruction as they are. Making surveillance have a mace redraw is just dumb. I don't mean to be hard on you, but you kind of walked right into it. The don't need a self heal, or the ability to crit with their ranged attacks nor do they need more ranged attacks. They have plenty and they are not meant to be played as ranged. Their ranged attacks are meant to be somewhat weak. Bane ranged attacks are also part of the theme, not to mention they can choose the Black Scorpion patron set and get more ranged attacks. The banes are mostly single target stalker/brute hybrids with leadership powers.
I don't how your toon is built but that might be some of the reason your calling for a buff and yes making surveillance have a mace redraw would piss Huntsman off. Namely me. If you want a ranged SoA roll a crab or go Huntsman.
Don't give the developers any ideas. They are doing a decent job at the moment. Don't ruin that.
Honestly, I would rather Castle not look at any of the Soldiers.
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What makes you say that?| I don't see the need to buff them |
Would you say Banes are better than Stalkers?
Would you say Banes are better than Stalkers when they have say, 2-3 seconds at best to engage a spawn before the rest of the team?
What about when both get neither?
I would really like some ddr
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Why are you comparing banes to stalkers? They are completely different ATs. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
What makes you say that?
Would you say Banes are better than Stalkers? Would you say Banes are better than Stalkers when they have say, 2-3 seconds at best to engage a spawn before the rest of the team? What about when both get neither? |
Banes have excellent melee damage output, some ranged attacks for variety, team buffs, debuffs, the only conclusion i can some to with the comparison is that stalkers need a buff.
Banes are not in need of a buff. Most of the suggestions here wouldn't be buffs, they would cause the bane to encroach on crab spider territory (ranged/aoe). I think the distinctions between the different VEAT styles are quite clear and would prefer them to remain that way.
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Now, that's a rather disingenuous sentiment. They are definitely comparable to the stalker.
| They are completely different ATs. |
I love these monthly "banes need love" meetings =)
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I'll agree they are the most stalkerish non-stalker in the game.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Now, that's a rather disingenuous sentiment. They are definitely comparable to the stalker.
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- Cloaking device: check!
- Crits from hide: check!
- Placate: check!
- Low hitpoints: check! (yeah their cap is way higher but it's tough to build a 1700+
hp bane)
Banes are really a tough AT to define. They are a semi-squishy melee monster that also plays a support role utilizing team buffs and enemy resistance debuffs. They have a stalker's approach, and can hit for over 1k with shatter in the right conditions but in order to do so they have to apply debuffs to the enemy and then placate/ active BU/ attack.
If I remember right during beta they had a crazyfast recharging placate which set them apart from stalkers. You could basically crit on demand and it was the talk of the town. They were touted as being the Arachnos "shocktroopers" and with this feature they were undeniably so. Then they went live and their placate gem had been re-adjusted to match the stalker's recharge time of sixty seconds. Would have been nice to at least have retained a slight discount in placate or BU recharge (ala stalker claws) but it is what it is.
Also -
Their status protection is a bit subpar IMO.
Web cocoooooon!... WTH is this? I think web cocoon needs some attention. Make it into a 'burn' clone where, once the target is held, a group of spiderlings appear and DoT the piss out of the critter or something. Ok... yeah this is a bit extreme but I personally think web cocoon could have something better in its place.
I think that bane's are just an AT suffering from an identity crisis is all. I don't think they need a major buff, just a few tweaks and a little definition would suffice.
The thing that surprises me is that 20s placate sounds really scary vs a single target when your defenses are already gonzo. In most team play situations - where I feel my bane needed help - it seems kinda bleh, since basically any setup of placate+attack is going to lead to corpse pounding.
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Originally Posted by dmcfarland907
Banes are fine as they are. I don't see the need to buff them. They are already engines of destruction as they are. Making surveillance have a mace redraw is just dumb. I don't mean to be hard on you, but you kind of walked right into it. The don't need a self heal, or the ability to crit with their ranged attacks nor do they need more ranged attacks. They have plenty and they are not meant to be played as ranged. Their ranged attacks are meant to be somewhat weak. Bane ranged attacks are also part of the theme, not to mention they can choose the Black Scorpion patron set and get more ranged attacks. The banes are mostly single target stalker/brute hybrids with leadership powers.
I don't how your toon is built but that might be some of the reason your calling for a buff and yes making surveillance have a mace redraw would piss Huntsman off. Namely me. If you want a ranged SoA roll a crab or go Huntsman. Don't give the developers any ideas. They are doing a decent job at the moment. Don't ruin that. |
You are not being "hard" on me because you haven't convinced me one bit why Bane shouldn't get "looked at".
1. Bane is just as close to Brute/Stalker as Night Widow is. My point is Night Widow can deal even more melee damage than Bane so what is your point? You don't need to ask about my build. I know what I am doing. Trust me. I came here because even after set bonuses are included, NW > Bane in terms of damage and Crab, while not having as much ST damage as Bane, survives better, has way better aoe and can also debuffs faster with Venom (since Bane needs to draw Rifle out).
2. Surveillance is ok if you use it before you run in but when you use it again during battle, you have to draw mace again. Why is it so hard to understand? If Bane's "special ability" is to debuff, it shouldn't penalize Bane for using it during battle. And quite frankly, I don't give a !@#$ about Huntsman needing to draw Rifle out. Surveillance belongs to Bane soldier and it should favor Bane more. Question?
3. Did you even look at Black Scorpian Mace Beam attack? It has the same awful long activation with a bit more damage but on 9s recharge. You are not even reading what I am saying. I am saying THE RANGE ATTACKS ARE SO BAD THAT MOST BANES DON'T WANT TO TAKE THEM. It's not about "choosing styles". The range attacks take forever to shoot and quite frankly, Soldier has better range attacks than Bane's. So yeah, my Bane would rather just use melee attacks. And since range attacks can't critical from hidden, there is really little reason to take range attacks on Bane because the most beneficial thing to do is to just BU + Shatter/Crowd. I don't mind spending 2s on every attack if it is worth it. The current Mace Bean only recharges in 4s and spend half of its time on just activating it.... this gotta be the worst range in the game.
4. Who says Bane is mostly ST melee damage? 4 out of 8 attacks (yes, 50% of them) are range. I certainly don't agree Bane is designed to be mostly melee. NW is more Melee than Bane. The enemy Bane usually shoots mace attacks and then go in for melee but that style would suck because Bane can't take advantage of "hidden" unless he can critical with range attacks as well.
5. I have no issue with Bane having less survivability than other 3 branches. I never mention that Bane needs a health boost or defensive boost. Where I have problem with is Bane's lower damage (due to long animation), slower debuffs and just overally...very slow.
6. I am giving dev ideas because 1. 8/10 Soldiers are Crab from what I've seen 2. with two sides merging (sort of), there is even more reason to look at sets that are under performing.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
As bad as it sounds, I can't believe I am rooting for a "buff" on SoA but I really think Bane can use some minor "changes". Some suggestions:
1. Mace Beam: For a tier 1 attack, this probably has the LONGEST activation of all. 2s act which is half of the recharge timer 4s. The effect is knockback (not knockdown). I am not at home to see what the % of chance for knockback is but I think they can really push the recharge to at least 6s to make it worthwhile using. I mean this attack is even worse than the Soldier's Single Shot and it's sad....
2. Mace Beam Valley/Blast: Again, activation time is kinda long at 2s and the recharge is only 8s. It would be nice if both of them are increased to 10s recharge.
3. Make Surveillance draw the Mace out like Build Up please.
I think most Banes I have seen go for all melee because the ranged attacks just take too long to activate. I mean it even makes more sense to use the range attacks from Soldier because every range Bane attack takes 2s. If we can't improve the activation time, can we at least increase recharge to make those slow-activating attacks more powerful?
That's it. I think Bane does decent damage and I am fine with lower melee defense. Survival is not my issue with Bane but damage is. I think once you put sets in SoA, Night Widow's dps is way better than Bane and mostly because NW's attacks are so freaking fast. Bane is a mix of control (knockdowns) and melee/range and half of the attacks (4 of them) are Range. The Range part is where Bane feels the weakest IMO.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.