Energy Transfer
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 10:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I wouldnt put my name in for either of those. The only way I want them to fix the energy melee aoe damage is to buff the already an aoe attack from the set, whirling hands.
The only thing that should be done to energy transfer is lowering the cast time. If that means lowering the damage, then so be it. If that means raising the recharge time and endurance cost, then so be it, but the -health better disappear if that becomes the case.
I wouldn't personally go for KB either - mind you, I *like* KB, but I know that most hate it. KD would be nice though, and then crazies like us can slot a KB io or the stupefy proc to get some KB action. Giving it some AoE splash like thunderstrike (so not full AoE damage, but a fraction) would also shore up the set's AoE weakness nicely.
I honestly don't understand the rabid hatred for the current animation. Ok, fine, it's 2.67s long, but look at some other sets' heavy hitters:
Cleave: 2.33
Vengeful Slice: 2.43
Thunder strike/total focus/etc: 3.3
Greater X sword: 2.33
KO blow: 2.23
Shatter: 2.33
Headsplitter: 2.33
Eagle's claw: 2.53
Energy transfer isn't *that* out of line compared to other sets, especially since it hits significantly harder than every one of those attacks. The DPA is still through the roof, and the DPE and damage/recharge ratio are still better than normal attacks. If it wasn't for the fact that it used to have a ridiculously short animation, nobody would bat an eye at it.
They aren't going to lower the cast time and leave the damage unchanged, because that would lead it right back into the same 'ludicrously high DPA' area that it used to be in. But if they lower the cast time and also kill the damage at the same time, I don't honestly think that'd be an improvement. If I'm going to invest some of my health in an attack, I damn well want it to hit like a semi truck.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I agree, the slow animation is kind of neat. Granted, on teams it can be problematic, but if you're using a big hitter on a foe that the team is killing in less than 2 seconds, your choice of power use is a little suspect.
I just see this power as kind of the centerpiece of the set. I thought a little boost to it might be nifty.
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Those other powers do not damage you if you end up hitting a corpse. With the long animation time on both the heavy hitters in EM, you either spend alot of time using your lower damage attacks or alot of time waiting to do damage to a corpse. At least on teams. Solo it is really no big deal but last time I checked one of the M-s in MMO stands for multiplayer.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
I wouldn't personally go for KB either - mind you, I *like* KB, but I know that most hate it. KD would be nice though, and then crazies like us can slot a KB io or the stupefy proc to get some KB action. Giving it some AoE splash like thunderstrike (so not full AoE damage, but a fraction) would also shore up the set's AoE weakness nicely.
I honestly don't understand the rabid hatred for the current animation. Ok, fine, it's 2.67s long, but look at some other sets' heavy hitters: Cleave: 2.33 Vengeful Slice: 2.43 Thunder strike/total focus/etc: 3.3 Greater X sword: 2.33 KO blow: 2.23 Shatter: 2.33 Headsplitter: 2.33 Eagle's claw: 2.53 Energy transfer isn't *that* out of line compared to other sets, especially since it hits significantly harder than every one of those attacks. The DPA is still through the roof, and the DPE and damage/recharge ratio are still better than normal attacks. If it wasn't for the fact that it used to have a ridiculously short animation, nobody would bat an eye at it. They aren't going to lower the cast time and leave the damage unchanged, because that would lead it right back into the same 'ludicrously high DPA' area that it used to be in. But if they lower the cast time and also kill the damage at the same time, I don't honestly think that'd be an improvement. If I'm going to invest some of my health in an attack, I damn well want it to hit like a semi truck. |
If the devs insist on the cast time of 2.67 then what I would like to see is the old animation of 1 second followed by 1.67 seconds of you catching your breath or somehow recovering from the health drain that you put into the attack. The damage would hit at the 1 second mark meaning fewer instances where you end up pounding the crap out of a corpse and hurting yourself in the process.
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lol?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I agree, the slow animation is kind of neat.
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Having one single-target power with a long animation isn't a big deal. It's when you have multiple single-target powers with long animations that things become problematic. Currently, Energy Melee has that problem. Adding AoE to Energy Transfer doesn't fix this.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Agreed, Energy Melee does have a lot of rather slow attacks, but I don't include Energy Transfer in the list of problematic powers. The long activation seems ok to me. I just thought a tweak might fill a hole or two. The set lacks much AOE and has no ranged attack. Doing one or both of these might be beneficial.
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Originally Posted by macskull
lol?
Having one single-target power with a long animation isn't a big deal. It's when you have multiple single-target powers with long animations that things become problematic. Currently, Energy Melee has that problem. Adding AoE to Energy Transfer doesn't fix this. |
I'm probably not in the position to make suggestions to Energy Melee as the only EM character I have is my 34 EM/EA Stalker...but many of the suggestions to 'fix' EM by changing Whirling Hands still leaves Stalker EM in the exact same state...not really fair, IMO, when you consider that AoE dmg isn't even the set's problem.
On a set where the target is pretty much stunned the entire time, it doesn't matter how fast or slow the attack hits. And on teams, it's not detrimental to the groups success if your attack hits something that is already defeated...it's defeated so that's a success. End of story.
Where I think the set has issues is it doesn't have the ability or utility to protect itself from a group. Sure, you can ET one, TF another, Stun another and string the smaller attacks on something to stun a 4th but those animations take a while to get off and by the time you're working on the 3rd or 4th, the 1st is unstunned unless you slotted for stun...
I'd personally suggest making Stun a short-ranged Targeted AoE with a 5 target cap. Keep the damage and stun, just make it possible to stun more guys at once. Maybe even lower the mag to 2 for the AoE with an additional 1 mag to the target you used it on? That lets you stun a Lt and any nearby minions then toss your TF on the boss to stun him too. I'd totally love the set if it offered equal to superior control with the most controlly of melee sets (Stone and Dark probably...MA is now a contender too) with a strong focus on ST...actually, that's probably why so many people love Stone. It has great AoE control (Fault is amazing) and strong ST focus...
While corpse pounding is not detrimental to the groups success, you are not exactly helping either. In groups you may as well just ignore the fact that you have TF and ET until you get to an EB or AV.
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That would be like telling an SS player to forget about rage and FS, or a stoner to forget about fault and SM. Or An elec and telling them to forget about LS or TS. Without ET and TF, EM is leagues worse than the other sets. So no, any time the answer is forgetting those two powers, its unacceptable to me.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
While corpse pounding is not detrimental to the groups success, you are not exactly helping either. In groups you may as well just ignore the fact that you have TF and ET until you get to an EB or AV.
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he didn't say to totaly forget about them. just use them in a situation when on a team that they don't get wasted. try reading the post the way it was written.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
That would be like telling an SS player to forget about rage and FS, or a stoner to forget about fault and SM. Or An elec and telling them to forget about LS or TS. Without ET and TF, EM is leagues worse than the other sets. So no, any time the answer is forgetting those two powers, its unacceptable to me.
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I would personally like to see ET reverted back to the Power Thrust animation. Problem fixt.
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With ET and TF, EM is still leagues worse than the other sets.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Without ET and TF, EM is leagues worse than the other sets.
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EM was ruined when it was ported over...
This set has been destroyed.. slow animation and activation times.. really weak AoE damage... just pathetic...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I think we're drifting off topic a little. The set has very little AOE, and no ranged attacks. These are what I'm hoping to address. It's kind of slow, yes, but that's a different issue. One hurdle at a time.
Make TF AoE. Same as Thunderstrike and stuff. Having the Tier 9 power be Single target, cost that much endurance, and be that damn slow is just...it's painful.
Make it an AoE for pity sakes, and buff whirling hands.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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How about adding limited utility and only moderate Single Target control to that list?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The set has very little AOE, and no ranged attacks.
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Honestly, the set's obviously suppose to be focused on ST with only some AoE which is fine. So how about focusing on it's strengths? What were those strengths again?
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| While corpse pounding is not detrimental to the groups success, you are not exactly helping either. In groups you may as well just ignore the fact that you have TF and ET until you get to an EB or AV. |
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But corpse pounding is illegal in pretty much every state, and in most civilized nations. Clearly EM should be changed based solely on that.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
While corpse pounding is not detrimental to the groups success, you are not exactly helping either. In groups you may as well just ignore the fact that you have TF and ET until you get to an EB or AV.
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Thats a horrid comparison. Your stalker, which btw there are multiple threads discussing the lack of a role for stalkers on teams (not waiting for them to AS is a big one,) has hide, is not automatically expected to take aggro, and therefor is not expected to start every fight off. When your stalker jumps into the mob, the rest of the team doesnt see it as their time to start fighting, they wait for the tank/brute. Right when a brute or tank jumps into a mob, the attacks start flying. Its not uncommon for squishys to attack through the tank/brute, meaning they will attack the same target. Enter in the corpse shooting. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If I can get off an Assassin's Strike which is nearly 2x longer to animate, then your Brute can learn how to pick his targets too.
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And also nearly two times longer huh? So when did 3 seconds become two times longer than 3.3 seconds? There are only two versions (not counting KM) that have assassins strikes cast times longer than TF, the blade primaries, which are 3.67. All the rest activate faster than TF. And with ET activating in 2.67 seconds, that makes the fastest AS activating 1/6 times slower, a far cry from half. The slowest activate a second slower, still not near half.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
he didn't say to totaly forget about them. just use them in a situation when on a team that they don't get wasted. try reading the post the way it was written.
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| While corpse pounding is not detrimental to the groups success, you are not exactly helping either. In groups you may as well just ignore the fact that you have TF and ET until you get to an EB or AV. |
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I see your point.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I think we're drifting off topic a little. The set has very little AOE, and no ranged attacks.
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It is a bit odd that Energy Melee has no ranged attacks. What an incredible oversight on the part of the developers that you've spotted there!
Seriously, the problem with Energy Melee is that it was a fast set, people liked it because it was a fast set. But now I can make a sandwich in less time that it takes to use both Energy Transfer and Total Focus.
That's the problem with Energy Melee. Not its lack of ranged attacks.
EDIT: Oh and guys... HelinCarnate wasn't advising people to forget about Energy Transfer and Total Focus while you're on a teams like it was great advice, he was pointing out that the problem with Energy Melee is that you cannot make use of Energy Transfer and Total Focus while on a team. He was pointing out the exact problem, not giving stupid advice. Geez!
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and again, all you are reading is what you want to read. even the part you bolded says until you get to an EB or AV. i do not see where it says to totaly ignore them. in fact you can pick a npc that is not being targeted by team mates and use them. again, reading comprehension ftw.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Actually he did, with that whole "ignore the fact you have tf and et." Ignoreing the fact you have them is doing the same as forgetting about them, you arent using them. So uh, take your own advice maybe?
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so does this mean you are going to post how katana and BS and ninja blade have no ranged attacks and very little aoe and try to have them changed to?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I think we're drifting off topic a little. The set has very little AOE, and no ranged attacks. These are what I'm hoping to address. It's kind of slow, yes, but that's a different issue. One hurdle at a time.
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Im more or less going off the thought process of how many missions involve EBs and AVs compared to not? Cus he says to "ignore the fact you have them" until you get to an EB or AV. Think of a story arc, where in a series of missions you may fight an eb/av in maybe two missions. And in those missions it will be one fight out of the whole mission. Thats after youve done four plus missions without EBs or AVs to get there.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
and again, all you are reading is what you want to read. even the part you bolded says until you get to an EB or AV. i do not see where it says to totaly ignore them. in fact you can pick a npc that is not being targeted by team mates and use them. again, reading comprehension ftw.
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Think about papers, where you never fight EBs and AVs. Think about TFs, the EB/AV central, where you still fight a majority of the time not against an EB/AV.
No, I'm not saying everything should have ranged attacks, but there ARE Energy sets that have ranged attacks (Energy Assault/Blast), so it's not inconceivable. You may also note that some melee sets DO have ranged attacks, so as I already said, there is a precedent.
I should also say, I don't agree you can't use slow attacks on teams. Does anyone complain about KO Blow? It's a matter of choosing the right power at the right time. Again, if you're using it on a foe that the team defeats in less than 2 seconds, then the problem may lie in your choice of tactics.
I have to say, I rather like Energy Melee, but Energy Transfer seems to me to be missing something. My original suggestion, that it could use a Knockback effect, was met with the expected resistance (no one seems to like knockback but me), but I have had some other thoughts.
My suggestion that at least the option of knockback be added stands. I mean, the animation thrusts out both arms like you're pushing, but the enemy doesn't go anywhere. Make it knockdown, with the option of making it knockback by slotting appropriately.
Alternatively (or additionally), what about making it an AOE? There has been lots of comment about how little AOE Energy Melee has, and the wussiness of Whirling Hands. Energy Transfer has a big effect, let's make it an AOE and give the set something many have said it needs.
Again alternatively or additionally, what about making it a ranged attack? In the past, I've pushed for all Melee sets to have at least one ranged attack. It's not without precedent, Super Strength has Hurl, for example. It's also not without conceptual merit. There could easily be an Energy Blast of some kind in the Energy Melee set. The problem has been deciding what to remove to add the ranged attack. So, let's not remove anything, lets make the Energy Transfer into a ranged attack. The range doesn't have to be really long or anything, maybe 10 or 15 feet. It could add soemthing nifty to the set, and again would fit the animation.
Of course, you could use any combination of these effects, too (eg. a ranged, explosive attack with knockback). What do you think, could you get behind any of these ideas?