Quote:
Crabs and Forts are now laughing and pointing at you.
|
Originally Posted by Quinch
So.... tankmages?
|
Quote:
Is that what you consider Widows, Soldiers, PBs and WSs? All four ATs that have Ranged/Armor, but lack what I'm looking for, which is specifically Dual Pistols (which by reading the forums a lot of people consider weak to begin with |
Originally Posted by Quinch
So.... tankmages?
|
Hell, even in game. I'm not one of them btw).Or are you just trolling?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Just sounds iffy to me. Sounds like you're asking for advantages of scrappers, but not the disadvantage of close range.
Quote:
Are you just asking to be trolled by bringing up a singularly pointless dead horse yet again?
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Or are you just trolling?
|
As BrandX has pointed out we already have several Ranged/Armor ATs in game. Both VEATS and HEATS. Perhaps the devs consider that the point entirely. They know that people want Ranged characters that are also tough so that's how they designed the Epic ATs on both sides.
The problem, from a player's point of view, is that both sets of Epic ATs are overly specific. What if I don't want to be an Arachnos goon or a weird sea creature looking alien thingy? What if I want my Ranged/Armor AT to be a pulp fiction, Indiana Jones-ish type? I'm out of luck, at least until I get him IO'd out.
But what if they designed a Blaster Secondary that allowed this? Say a Secondary Powerset that contained a handful of Martial Arts moves coupled with a (weak - perhaps only Mag 2 or 3) mez toggle and a Damage Resistance Toggle. Why DR instead of Def? Specifically so that it cannot be stacked with IOs to create a Tankmage that's Def soft-capped to everything.
The secondary wouldn't have Build Up of course, that's the trade off. You'd be sacrificing your burst damage ability in order to gain some survivability and Mez protection.
The loss burst damage means that the power gamers probably wouldn't like this powerset. Since Mez protection doesn't work in PvP the way it does in PvE and this set doesn't have Build Up or Boost Range means that the PvPers probably won't like it either.
So who would like and pick this set? People who just want to play their character the way they envision him/her. RPers and casual PvEers.
Quote:
No, no, I'm just laying waste to a map of +2/x8 with my six pets and ranged AoE death. I can see how the legs would confuse you, though. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Crabs and Forts are now laughing and pointing at you.
|
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
That's actually a really nice compromise, Falcon... Heck! I'd even be happy to see them get... dare I say it?! -Two- defensive DR toggles. One for Smashing/Lethal, one for all the exotics with a lower resistance value.
Mind you, these two toggles wouldn't put the blaster on par, defensively speaking, with a Scrapper... But they would up it's survivability.
-Rachel-
Quote:
Not at all. I'm asking for what I watched last night, which was exactly what I envisioned as the hero I wanted to make, when I bought the game.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Are you just asking to be trolled by bringing up a singularly pointless dead horse yet again?
|
I'm not even asking exactly for a RANGED/ARMOR AT.
I'm asking for a Dual Pistol (possibly Dual Pistol and Martial Arts)/Armored AT.
This means, it would STILL be limited like the EATs, except they don't need to limit it to a specific origin or game lore, like they do with the EATs.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I could potentially see a mix between the Dominator, Blaster, Corruptor, and Scrapper secondaries to make a "red mage" of archetypes. The Dominator secondaries would become this AT's primaries because they contain a mix between melee and ranged attacks, yet lack the powerful AoE coverage and nukes blasters get.
The secondaries would be an amalgam of existing sets, containing dome defense, some control, some heal/buff/debuff, but at reduced power.
I can envision such a secondary set right now, a compliment to Fiery Assault:
1. Fire Shield (12.5% smash/lethal/fire DR, 5% cold DR)
2. Ring of Fire (control)
3. Temperature Protection (auto, 7.5% fire/cold DR)
4. Smoke (debuff)
5. Plasma Shield (17.5% energy/neg/fire DR)
6. Warmth (PBAoE heal)
7. Burn (control and immobilize protection)
8. Heat Exhaustion (debuff)
9. Melt Armor (debuff)
Combined with Fiery Assault, an archetype of this would be able to fill the red mage role, having a variety of attacks, defenses, and effect powers, but at the cost of not excelling at either one of those. It's a concept I've loved since I played the first Final Fantasy, and I would love to see it eventually happen.
Thoughts?
Quote:
Really, I just want to use Dual Pistols without feeling like my toon has a glass jaw. |
Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
I could potentially see a mix between the Dominator, Blaster, Corruptor, and Scrapper secondaries to make a "red mage" of archetypes. The Dominator secondaries would become this AT's primaries because they contain a mix between melee and ranged attacks, yet lack the powerful AoE coverage and nukes blasters get.
The secondaries would be an amalgam of existing sets, containing dome defense, some control, some heal/buff/debuff, but at reduced power. I can envision such a secondary set right now, a compliment to Fiery Assault: 1. Fire Shield (12.5% smash/lethal/fire DR, 5% cold DR) 2. Ring of Fire (control) 3. Temperature Protection (auto, 7.5% fire/cold DR) 4. Smoke (debuff) 5. Plasma Shield (17.5% energy/neg/fire DR) 6. Warmth (PBAoE heal) 7. Burn (control and immobilize protection) 8. Heat Exhaustion (debuff) 9. Melt Armor (debuff) Combined with Fiery Assault, an archetype of this would be able to fill the red mage role, having a variety of attacks, defenses, and effect powers, but at the cost of not excelling at either one of those. It's a concept I've loved since I played the first Final Fantasy, and I would love to see it eventually happen. Thoughts? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yeah I know what you mean. Iron Man commonly uses ranged attacks, and well he uses armor. I think ranged/armored sounds good.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Just got done watching Batman: Under the Red Hood, and all it did for me was think...that's what I want out of a dual pistol hero!
Dual Pistol/Armor AT! PLEASE!  Make it an epic AT! Dual Pistol & Martial Arts/Varied selection of Defense Powers. Set it up like the HEATS. Long list of powers to choose from on both sides, ignore APPs (maybe PPPs) and let those of us who've been wanting this type of hero (or villain) cheer! |
Quote:
I have a take on such a thing, primary/secondary/epic.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Really, I just want to use Dual Pistols without feeling like my toon has a glass jaw.
|
Primary -
1. Pistol (minor ranged damage)
2. Storm Kick (medium melee damage)
3. Empty Clips (minor ranged cone damage)
4. Dual Wield (medium ranged damage)
5. Swap Ammo
6. Dragon's Tail (minor pbaoe damage)
7. Caltrops (target AoE control, minor DoT)
8. Crippling Axe Kick (high melee damage)
9. Executioner's Shot (high ranged damage)
Secondary -
1. Grit (auto, +10% smash and lethal DR, 5% fire/cold/energy DR, +10% HP)
2. Web Grenade (ranged control)
3. Body Armor (auto, +5% smash DR, +15% lethal DR)
4. Smoke Grenade (ranged AoE blind/debuff)
5. Cloaking Device (+6% defense to all out of combat, +3% in combat, .32 e/s)
6. Targeting Drone (+12.5 to-hit)
7. Cauterize (minor single ally heal)
8. Sleep Grenade (ranged AoE control)
9. Seeker Drones (ranged blind/debuff)
Epic -
1. Adrenalin Boost (self +10 res to stun, hold, immob, and sleep, lasts two minutes)
2. Surveillance (debuff)
3. Gun Drone (summon Gun Drone, moderate ranged damage)
4. Hand Grenade (medium ranged AoE damage)
5. LRM (superior ranged AoE damage, interruptible)
Or slot the heck out of a blaster/corruptor/defender.
To be fair, this is the type of character I've wanted to play since my inception into CoH as well. In fact, dual pistols is the main reason I came back to try this game out again, I didn't mind pre-ordering, it was something new.
But yes, I would like to see a ranged set that has a little bit of survivability, in the 'stand their and take it' sense. I don't think I'm alone on the sentiment either.
I agree with the OP's sentiment. My poor DP toon can't dish it out OR take it. But looks cool trying, lol. I log my Dual Pistols toon in about once a week, earn a bubble or two, die horribly and pathetically, sigh, and then play something else for the rest of the week.
Quote:
I'd love to see some Kinetics/Martial Arts attacks built into a blaster secondary, just for the sake of getting that mix of firearms and martial arts that we see in so many action movies.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Just got done watching Batman: Under the Red Hood, and all it did for me was think...that's what I want out of a dual pistol hero!
Dual Pistol/Armor AT! PLEASE! Make it an epic AT! Dual Pistol & Martial Arts/Varied selection of Defense Powers. Set it up like the HEATS. Long list of powers to choose from on both sides, ignore APPs (maybe PPPs) and let those of us who've been wanting this type of hero (or villain) cheer! |
My idea for mixing armor and guns however is that I'd just like to see the various weapon sets semi-proliferated into APPs. Ranged weapons (guns, bows, etc) for melee ATs and melee weapons/attacks (broadsword, claws, axe, martial arts, etc.) for ranged ATs (and a Shield APP too). That way I can get enough power to add DP to my MA/WP Scrapper for instance, for the whole John Woo effect, or my defender can swing a sword when he's on the front line (which is a lot of the time) without having to worry about when my [Iron Blade] will expire.
I do wish that Wolf VEATs could use pistols instead of the submachine shotgun thing. I like my VEAT just fine, but I'm always in favor of more options.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon
As BrandX has pointed out we already have several Ranged/Armor ATs in game. Both VEATS and HEATS. Perhaps the devs consider that the point entirely. They know that people want Ranged characters that are also tough so that's how they designed the Epic ATs on both sides.
The problem, from a player's point of view, is that both sets of Epic ATs are overly specific. What if I don't want to be an Arachnos goon or a weird sea creature looking alien thingy? What if I want my Ranged/Armor AT to be a pulp fiction, Indiana Jones-ish type? I'm out of luck, at least until I get him IO'd out. But what if they designed a Blaster Secondary that allowed this? Say a Secondary Powerset that contained a handful of Martial Arts moves coupled with a (weak - perhaps only Mag 2 or 3) mez toggle and a Damage Resistance Toggle. Why DR instead of Def? Specifically so that it cannot be stacked with IOs to create a Tankmage that's Def soft-capped to everything. The secondary wouldn't have Build Up of course, that's the trade off. You'd be sacrificing your burst damage ability in order to gain some survivability and Mez protection. The loss burst damage means that the power gamers probably wouldn't like this powerset. Since Mez protection doesn't work in PvP the way it does in PvE and this set doesn't have Build Up or Boost Range means that the PvPers probably won't like it either. So who would like and pick this set? People who just want to play their character the way they envision him/her. RPers and casual PvEers. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Really, I just want to use Dual Pistols without feeling like my toon has a glass jaw.
|
Add Dark Armor and Oppressive Gloom from the APP just to thumb your nose at hordes of enemies, though you might want to swap something out for Stamina if you have all those toggles.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
http://xx-starhammer-xx.deviantart.com/
Quote:
"Uses Armor" does not necessarily mean that the character would have a survivability set. Even at level 1, Blasters can shrug off a shotgun blast or two to the face, so it's not like the Blasters are as squishy as a civilian would be (were they not simply immune to everything). Iron Man could quite easily be a Blaster (likely Energy/Dev or Energy/Energy depending on the writer) and simply use the durability of his armor to represent the fact that he can shrug off a few bullets before he goes down.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
Yeah I know what you mean. Iron Man commonly uses ranged attacks, and well he uses armor.
|
If you want canon demonstrations, Positron lives in a suit of armor and is a Rad/Rad Defender/Corruptor. He's not some special Rad/Invuln combination due to the fact that he lives in a suit of armor. The armor makes his normally humanly squishy body resilient enough to actually go out and hero about.
Quote:
Yeah. He also has Elite Boss/Hero level HP and resistances, not to mention his Overload Godmode power. He might as WELL be Rad/Rad/Invuln, because that's how he plays out. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
"Uses Armor" does not necessarily mean that the character would have a survivability set. Even at level 1, Blasters can shrug off a shotgun blast or two to the face, so it's not like the Blasters are as squishy as a civilian would be (were they not simply immune to everything). Iron Man could quite easily be a Blaster (likely Energy/Dev or Energy/Energy depending on the writer) and simply use the durability of his armor to represent the fact that he can shrug off a few bullets before he goes down.
If you want canon demonstrations, Positron lives in a suit of armor and is a Rad/Rad Defender/Corruptor. He's not some special Rad/Invuln combination due to the fact that he lives in a suit of armor. The armor makes his normally humanly squishy body resilient enough to actually go out and hero about. |
We've been through all this before. Multiple times in fact. The base truth of the matter is that it IS possible to make a Blast(Or Assault)/Armour AT without over-powering to the point of Tankmagery. And thats what the definition of 'tankmage' is, anyway; overpowered. I don't think theres a single OP'd AT in the game as of yet. Really tough? Sure! Tankers can and do go toe-to-toe with Recluse and co. Really really destructive? Step up Fire/Fire/Fire blasters, where death simply becomes part of the attack chain.
Over-powered? None yet.
A Blast(Or Assault)/Armour AT would really help fill a gap in the available concepts in character creation. Right now, if you want anything close to a DP/SR character, you effectively have to spend a but-tonne of inf on IOs. And thats after wrangling a build that will likely be far from optimal.
The concept is sound, the implementation is possible, the rewards are worth it.
I still fail to see any of the so-called downsides (other than workload, which is a given on anything really) that people are latching onto.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
No.
Quote:
The problem isn't making it balanced. The problem is making it balanced while still providing a reason for the AT to exist within the confines of the game (yes, it's a game; concept and theme are all well and good, but when it comes down to it, it's a game first and foremost before it's a superhero simulator). The only way to properly balance out the ability to have ranged capabilities and full on survivability is to drop damage or survivability. If that happens, then there isn't a functional role that the AT plays within the confines of the team beyond "soloer". Every AT fulfills some explicit role (or more than one): damage, support, and personal survival (each AT has some portion of each role to different extents).|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The base truth of the matter is that it IS possible to make a Blast(Or Assault)/Armour AT without over-powering to the point of Tankmagery.
|
If you trade away some portion of your damage or survivability for the ranged advantage (which you would have to do because otherwise you're getting something for nothing), there isn't a point to bringing the new AT because anything it does is done better by the pre-existing AT.
Every suggestion I have ever seen for a ranged/armor AT falls prey to this argument: if you create a balanced version of a ranged/armor AT (balanced both internally and against the existing ATs it would be competing against), there isn't a point in bringing one because whatever it brings to the party is brought more effectively by someone else. The only role it would really fulfill would be soloing, and the devs aren't likely to make an AT that pretty much only exists to solo.
It's because of this issue that whenever I see this suggestion (generally draped in the mantle of "we need it because I have a character concept" rather than anything resembling an actual reason that the game needs such an AT due to a role not being filled), I counter with a suggestion to create an AT that is assault/(armor + support). Even with damage low enough to justify an armored ranged attacker, there is a reason to bring them to a team because they're providing force multiplication coupled with a reason for the AT to actually have higher survivability (because it's designed to spend some portion of time in melee where the higher survivability is actually needed). There isn't a justification within the confines of the game (as a game, not as a superhero simulator) for there to be an AT with the ability to stay out of danger (ranged damage) coupled with the ability to stay in danger (survivability set) because they're both present explicitly to solve the same problem: how to deal with incoming damage.
I've wanted Tankers to be remade as Defense/Assault ever since we got Dominators, in order to set them apart from Scrappers and Brutes. I don't see how relatively low damage short-to-medium-range blasts could possibly be overpowered, even combined with a Tanker's awesome defenses. Instead of generating Domination the Tanker's Assault sets would generate aggro and wouldn't even have to include a separate Taunt power, since there would be plenty of area attacks for that purpose.
I would also remake Gauntlet to make it a "Gauntlet bar" which filled up as the Tanker was attacked. When the enemies discover that the Tanker doesn't die, they start to panic and try to bring all they've got in order to take down the Tanker, temporarily forgetting about the squishier targets. The Gauntlet bar would increase the Threat level of the Tanker, making things like Taunt a thing of the past. Run in first, don't die and fire off an area attack, and that's all the aggro control you would ever need.
Since it's unlikely that they would change Tankers now this should probably be lobbied for as a new epic archetype. I will only take the credit, you guys can thank me later.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
So then, make a Dual Pistols/Armored AT (not a ranged/armored AT)...I'd be okay with it. Dual Pistols moves are exactly what I want to see in Dual Pistol use. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem isn't making it balanced. The problem is making it balanced while still providing a reason for the AT to exist within the confines of the game (yes, it's a game; concept and theme are all well and good, but when it comes down to it, it's a game first and foremost before it's a superhero simulator). The only way to properly balance out the ability to have ranged capabilities and full on survivability is to drop damage or survivability. If that happens, then there isn't a functional role that the AT plays within the confines of the team beyond "soloer". Every AT fulfills some explicit role (or more than one): damage, support, and personal survival (each AT has some portion of each role to different extents).
If you trade away some portion of your damage or survivability for the ranged advantage (which you would have to do because otherwise you're getting something for nothing), there isn't a point to bringing the new AT because anything it does is done better by the pre-existing AT. Every suggestion I have ever seen for a ranged/armor AT falls prey to this argument: if you create a balanced version of a ranged/armor AT (balanced both internally and against the existing ATs it would be competing against), there isn't a point in bringing one because whatever it brings to the party is brought more effectively by someone else. The only role it would really fulfill would be soloing, and the devs aren't likely to make an AT that pretty much only exists to solo. It's because of this issue that whenever I see this suggestion (generally draped in the mantle of "we need it because I have a character concept" rather than anything resembling an actual reason that the game needs such an AT due to a role not being filled), I counter with a suggestion to create an AT that is assault/(armor + support). Even with damage low enough to justify an armored ranged attacker, there is a reason to bring them to a team because they're providing force multiplication coupled with a reason for the AT to actually have higher survivability (because it's designed to spend some portion of time in melee where the higher survivability is actually needed). There isn't a justification within the confines of the game (as a game, not as a superhero simulator) for there to be an AT with the ability to stay out of danger (ranged damage) coupled with the ability to stay in danger (survivability set) because they're both present explicitly to solve the same problem: how to deal with incoming damage. |
Set it up as an epic AT without the backstory of HEATS and VEATS.Praetoria may just be perfect for this.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Would love some sort of MA secondary for Blasters and Corruptors. Could include effects for lite control, such as Stun, pressure point attacks as debuffs, channeling chi for self buffs... there are a lot of possibilities that would work thematically.
Just got done watching Batman: Under the Red Hood, and all it did for me was think...that's what I want out of a dual pistol hero!
Dual Pistol/Armor AT! PLEASE!
Make it an epic AT!
Dual Pistol & Martial Arts/Varied selection of Defense Powers.
Set it up like the HEATS. Long list of powers to choose from on both sides, ignore APPs (maybe PPPs) and let those of us who've been wanting this type of hero (or villain) cheer!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection